Is Garosh the end of the Hellscream line?

[Baneleaf]

Enough with Garrosh and Grom. I just want to see a new main enemy in wow that is not Horde based (and I play mainly alliance characters). I think its time to see a second coming of the Shen'dralar in the next or final expansion. A truly neutral race for the longest time that gets thirsty for arcane magic again and causes some sort of rift that brings the burning legion back. Horde leaders, though they are traditionally thought of as the "bad guys" have had way too much screen time in recent expansions. If not for Jaina crying constantly during wrath we would have forgot she was there.

Just think about it, a neutral race going rogue and causing the end of the world.

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Eh, considering how Garrosh turned out, I don't think the Hellscream line is really worth saving anyway.

I'm more worried about Saurfang's. At least his kid was prety bad ass (for the few seconds he had a chance to be anyway) and he wasn't a whiny little spaz like Garrosh. Too bad I doubt the old guy has any kids roaming about, or is likly to make another.

Did we ever see the elder Saurfang actually die? I think he would be a great asset to the horde and could actually go a long way in an end of the world fight to combine horde and alliance forces for the "final fight". He has Varians respect as well as Jaina so getting the rest of the alliance to fall in line behind him would be a no brainer.

[Kralljin]

It's at long last that the Hellscream line ends.

So far the Hellscream "line" consists out of 2 known Orcs.

If Blizzard wants another Hellscream, they'll just write that Garrosh had a GF back in Nagrand though because of his daddy issues he never took up his responsibility as Father and that kid grew up without a father.

Depending on the timeline, this kid could already be a young adult.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Hopefully, yes.

[cwowtbang]

I hope so. Orc's need to go back into lethargy again.

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I hope so, I'm done with Hellscreams. If the story is going the way everyone thinks it is, I hope they have a daughter.

And she will be a stud lesbian with a point to prove.

[Zulkhan]

the hellscream line should have died with Grom, and keep its honorable name.

Instead, now the name hellscream will go down as the biggest crux and taint the horde has had to its name.

An over-stimated honorable name. Which is one of the reasons we came to this.

Nothing wrong in hailing Grom as a badass warrior and a martyr, but Grom was to be used not only as a form of inspiration, people should have remembered to what recklessness and lust for power bring to, and Hellscream represented all of this just before dying as a hero.

Garrosh is a very horrible person but at least he never became a tool for anyone. Grom became a slightly better person thanks to Thrall, but his foolishness brought him to become a corrupted slave first and an almost mind-controlled fel orc after, becoming the toy of a pit lord once again, and considering all the painful efforts for free his mind and soul by the demonic corruption he brought to himself, if there was a thing he should have do was giving his cursed life for the good of all.

Both Hellscreams are shameful examples to what such power-hungry attitude leads to. Garrosh at least doesn't have excuses and last-minute heroism to use, so people will see more clearly in him what they should have seen in Grom in the first place.

[Trassk]

An over-stimated honorable name. Which is one of the reasons we came to this.

Nothing wrong in hailing Grom as a badass warrior and a martyr, but Grom was to be used not only as a form of inspiration, people should have remembered to what recklessness and lust for power bring to, and Hellscream represented all of this just before dying as a hero.

Garrosh is a very horrible person but at least he never became a tool for anyone. Grom became a slightly better person thanks to Thrall, but his foolishness brought him to become a corrupted slave first and an almost mind-controlled fel orc after, becoming the toy of a pit lord once again, and considering all the painful efforts for free his mind and soul by the demonic corruption he brought to himself, if there was a thing he should have do was giving his cursed life for the good of all.

Both Hellscreams are shameful examples to what such power-hungry attitude leads to. Garrosh at least doesn't have excuses and last-minute heroism to use, so people will see more clearly in him what they should have seen in Grom in the first place.

you have some good points, but I'll correct one.

Well Grom was a tool to demons to achieve there goals in killing both draenei and night elves alike, when he had his own free will he was alright, as reading in lord of the clans, we see he's a character who kind of learned from his past.
Garrosh however, well not being a tool to demons or warlocks or even old gods, has proven to be a tool in another sense, that of the plot, a tool used to enhance the story for other character, well having no redeemable qualities himself, unlike his father. The fu*ker even cast off his own fathers legacy when he abandons his axe in SoO raid.

Grom I respected, because he actually seemed to learn of his own mistakes, talk about them, and to that extent even showed a level of honor within his own kind and that of the rest of the horde.

But yes, the name hellscream is that not to be trusted. Its a symbol of something chaotic and self destructive, as both cases of father and son have shown. I mean, even Arthas' line, at least Arthas' father was a good man and king to his people, despite his son becoming the worst thing to happen to lordearon ever. With Grom and Garrosh, both cases have shown you can't allow someone with the hellscream name to do whatever they want.. its like some form of psychosis.

[Zulkhan]

Well Grom was a tool to demons to achieve there goals in killing both draenei and night elves alike, when he had his own free will he was alright, as reading in lord of the clans, we see he's a character who kind of learned from his past.

Yes and no. Like Garrosh, he displayed something but in the end, when he has been cornered, completely cast aside everything that he seemed to learn from Thrall, and showed that in the end he learned nothing, even saying that he and his clan should have give themselves to power and becoming what they were always meant for. Maybe in Lord of the Clans he learned to put aside his warmongering attitude, but not his lust for power.
And to be honest, in Rise of the Horde we see a younger Hellscream leading what it's defined as one of the most violent clans (the Warsong) with a sweet love for war, conquest, domination and, ofcourse, power. All reasons for which he has been so easy to trick about the "draenei menace" and the demon blood; so when he had free will he was absolutely not so "alright", at least not until he meets Thrall and calm down a bit.

Garrosh however, well not being a tool to demons or warlocks or even old gods, has proven to be a tool in another sense, that of the plot, a tool used to enhance the story for other character, well having no redeemable qualities himself, unlike his father. The fu*ker even cast off his own fathers legacy when he abandons his axe in SoO raid.

This doesn't make him a tool in the very sense of the term, not in the Warcraft's world itself. As for the story, he's indeed a tool, like many other villains that flash out, do a lot of mess, and then lie dead or defeated. Arthas has been the greatest Warcraft's tool, he literally changed the world like it was in WC2 in what it became in WoW basically.

Grom I respected, because he actually seemed to learn of his own mistakes, talk about them, and to that extent even showed a level of honor within his own kind and that of the rest of the horde.

He learned something indeed, but his greatest flaws remained there and has been showed when the situation "called" them. If Grom became any better than Garrosh, at least as a person in general, is mostly because of Thrall's influence, older age, and the fact that while he has always been a warmonger with a love for power and domination, he was more gullible than cruel, even taking in consideration the demon's curse. Garrosh is younger and arrogant, and always had a very ruthless and sadistic feeling in his heart, sustained by a surprising cold-blooded cynicism.

[Jokubas]

As far as we know Garrosh is the last, but considering he was a surprise in the first place, Blizzard could always give us another. In all honesty, I hope he's the last. At this point, doing anything more with the family would just be kinda forced.

[Trassk]

He learned something indeed, but his greatest flaws remained there and has been showed when the situation "called" them. If Grom became any better than Garrosh, at least as a person in general, is mostly because of Thrall's influence, older age, and the fact that while he has always been a warmonger with a love for power and domination, he was more gullible than cruel, even taking in consideration the demon's curse. Garrosh is younger and arrogant, and always had a very ruthless and sadistic feeling in his heart, sustained by a surprising cold-blooded cynicism.

which has always meant Garrosh is worse then Grom, because well Grom was reckless, and blood crazy in battle, and made some major cockups, he at least wasn't a diabolical schemer, fascist, and overall dick to anyone not an orc. Garrosh doesn't have the excuse of demons blood guiding his actions, meaning all the bad shit he does is down to him and him alone, he doesn't even have another character whispering in his ear and influencing his actions, like gul'dan did to doomhammer.

[Cannis866]

Lets hope not, lets hope atleast blizzard does not kill off one of the last (as far as i know) true brown orc bloodlines.

[Trassk]

Lets hope not, lets hope atleast blizzard does not kill off one of the last (as far as i know) true brown orc bloodlines.

being a mag'har meant nothing in the end, it use to be an uncorrupted orc that represented orcs before they became blood crazy. Garrosh pretty much made them no better then orks from warhammer.

[Orange Joe]

which has always meant Garrosh is worse then Grom, because well Grom was reckless, and blood crazy in battle, and made some major cockups, he at least wasn't a diabolical schemer, fascist, and overall dick to anyone not an orc. Garrosh doesn't have the excuse of demons blood guiding his actions, meaning all the bad shit he does is down to him and him alone, he doesn't even have another character whispering in his ear and influencing his actions, like gul'dan did to doomhammer.

Demon blood. Sha corruption. Whats the difference?

[Zulkhan]

which has always meant Garrosh is worse then Grom, because well Grom was reckless, and blood crazy in battle, and made some major cockups, he at least wasn't a diabolical schemer, fascist, and overall dick to anyone not an orc. Garrosh doesn't have the excuse of demons blood guiding his actions, meaning all the bad shit he does is down to him and him alone, he doesn't even have another character whispering in his ear and influencing his actions, like gul'dan did to doomhammer.

Grom's concept as a character is the one of the anti-hero, something fairly similar to what was Vegeta in DBZ. Garrosh's concept is the one of the villain, specifically an Arthas-like one, starting with good intentions and falling to his own flaws and obsessions, things that lead him to darkness. It's curios to read Garrosh's opinion about Arthas in his short story, a detail that foreshadowed which kind of villain Garrosh would have become:

"These were times like none he had ever seen. Friends turned into foes; life, into death that yet was not. There could be no hesitation, no mercy, no quarter. This was the plague. This was sorcery of a wickedness that only one such as Gul’dan could have conceived of, yet Gul’dan had long been dead. It was another who orchestrated these atrocities, Garrosh had learned: a former prince from the Alliance. One who had been too gullible, too weak, and too stupid to prevent his own manipulation into evil. Now he rained death upon them."

[Cannis866]

being a mag'har meant nothing in the end, it use to be an uncorrupted orc that represented orcs before they became blood crazy. Garrosh pretty much made them no better then orks from warhammer.

I should have said named bloodlines, cause how many brown named bloodlines are left?

[zeekphreak]

Lets hope! Everytime a Hellscream helms the Horde, people get all no child left behind stupid.
Also lets see some Development for Baine Bloodhoof.

<>Baine Bloodhoof for Warchief 2013<>

[Zulkhan]

I should have said named bloodlines, cause how many brown named bloodlines are left?

I guess this one.

[Tojara]

Grom never led the entire Horde ever though, his son did. Grom led his clan and his clan alone.

That's not to say that I would trust one in a major leadership position in the near future however lol.

[Zulkhan]

being a mag'har meant nothing in the end, it use to be an uncorrupted orc that represented orcs before they became blood crazy. Garrosh pretty much made them no better then orks from warhammer.

Yeah, in fact this whole mag'har thing brought people to commit the worst of mistakes, judging one by the color of the skin, in this case positevely. It worked very well with Garrosh. Oh wait.

Most of the "ugly" green orcs of Azeroth are just the sons of old veterans, so most of them hold the crimes of their parents just on their skin (like Gorgonna said) but they aren't directly responsible of them, nor they ever drank any demon blood.

[Sarcon]

But I've always said that Grom's sacrifice was hardly even redeeming. If you single-handedly mess your entire race up that badly then fixing your mistake isn't a redemption.

That's like.. the definition of redemption..

[Zulkhan]

Grom never led the entire Horde ever though, his son did. Grom led his clan and his clan alone.

One of the reasons for which Garrosh turned that bad indeed is because he hold such an incredible political power that boosted his ego...a bit.

That's like.. the definition of redemption..

What Grom did can indeed be called "redemption", but redeem yourself doesn't automatically make you a hero. Which is the mistake many orcs did, by shouting "he freed us! He's the hero of the orcish race!" but forgetting why they were cursed in the first place.