Excessive Raid Wipes

[PickmansMuse]

Exactly. And if they're not, well then it's obvious (unless the tanks are actually switching from door to door and you're neglecting to state that)

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Ah well, it happens

Tanks are not switching at each gate. We tried that with an attempt last week and didn't succeed

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To summarize: If your Pally is NOT using Hand of Protection on the DK to clear stacks, then you should be switching tanks at each door. If door #4 is consistently the issue then I'm wondering if the reason why is your pally is clearing his stacks twice (Clemency?) and then not being able to clear it later on so when door #4 and War God come, he's at around 15 or so TP stacks and getting destroyed. In that case either swap every 2x doors or switch for War God (e.g. druid takes Horridon, DK takes War God) and switch back when War God is dead if Triple Puncture has dropped.

That is good point. Last nit he said he had 15 stacks when he died on the next to last attempt.

[finchna]

I only know that we are getting a lot of charges and Horridon appears in our add group from time to time.

That has nothing to do with tank threat. Horridon charges and the person/character that is charged should run to Horridon or the Horridon tank while Horridon is getting ready charge to keep Horridon in place.

[Nobleshield]

Tanks are not switching at each gate. We tried that with an attempt last week and didn't succeed

That is probably your issue then. Each stack of Triple Puncture increases the damage of Triple Puncture; so if your DK is always on Horridon then stacks are not going to be dropping unless he's getting Hand of Protection from the Holy Pally, which with Clemency would be every other door (so after 2nd and after 4th before War God arrives), if your DK can live that long.

You should also probably switch after War God is dead unless Horridon is going to die relatively soon, as your Druid would not have any Triple Puncture stacks.

[finchna]

if you are to god king it is as simple as stacking the raid to horridon's flank and the charged person stepping to where the active tank is.

^^^^^^^^^^

[rhandric]

To summarize: If your Pally is NOT using Hand of Protection on the DK to clear stacks, then you should be switching tanks at each door. If door #4 is consistently the issue then I'm wondering if the reason why is your pally is clearing his stacks twice (Clemency?) and then not being able to clear it later on so when door #4 and War God come, he's at around 15 or so TP stacks and getting destroyed. In that case either swap every 2x doors or switch for War God (e.g. druid takes Horridon, DK takes War God) and switch back when War God is dead if Triple Puncture has dropped.

To (slightly?) expand on this:
Each door takes a minimum of 75 seconds, and depending on dps will take anywhere from 90-120 seconds (75 seconds is when the dinomancer drops down, so unless he explodes immediately...). Clemency (which is the only way a single paladin can cleanse a tank) gives HoP 2 charges, but does not actually give HoP a 2.5 minute cooldown as some commonly think. Let's assume 120 seconds (2 minutes) per door (less will make this harder).

A rough timeline will look like this:
T=0: Pull
T=75: Dinomancer drops down.
T=110: Horridon charges first gate. HoP should be used at this point. (HoP charge 1, starts 5 minute (300 sec) cd)
T=120: Door 2 starts
T=230: Horridon charges 2nd gate. HoP charge 2 used (HoP charge 1 has 180 secs remaining on cd, HoP2 not recharging yet)
T=240: Door 3 starts
T=350: Horridon charges 3rd gate. No HoP available for charge.
T=360: Door 4 starts
T=410: HoP1 recharges. HoP2 starts recharge.
T=470: Horridon charges 4th gate. HoP1 should be used here. Stacks will be ~16-18, so tank+healer should be paying close attention.
T=530: War god drops down

If the tank can properly handle 16-18 stacks (which isn't difficult, just requires proper AM usage), then HoP can be used after gates 2 and 4, instead of 1, 2, and 4. Another option for HoP usage would be (again, if stacks allow), 2, 3, after WG. 2/4 would likely be best, though, as the add tank can pick up Horridon after the war god dies (and pick up the war god when he comes down).

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Tanks are not switching at each gate. We tried that with an attempt last week and didn't succeed

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That is good point. Last nit he said he had 15 stacks when he died on the next to last attempt.

If he's dying with 15 stacks then you need to switch at each door, or you'll need 2 paladins (ret/holy, at least 1 with clemency) to cover HoPs.

You should also look at *why* he's dying at 15 stacks. Is he not using his AM properly? Is he not topped off before Triple Puncture hits?

[pallyopness]

Stacks are not the issue at 15...on heroic horridon we let our dk tank take 22 stacks....in all honesty there is zero reason to tank horridon across the room. Tank him in front of the door maybe 50 yards out sideways....

[Andaja]

Do you have two palas in raid, cause with one youd still need to tank swap atleast once (if you don't count after 4th gate goes down). Healing a 500 tank with 15 stacks, its really a no walk in the park. So with two palas bop dk when boss rams the door. With one pala - druid tanks boss on 1st door, dk on 2nd (gets bop), dk on 3rd (gets bop), dk 4th and bear taunts boss after door is closed, dk on war god and you just swap when the stacks gets high (8ish with horidon enraged). Should be dead when next swap must be made.
As for add tanking. Bare in mind that not all adds are needed to be tanked. On normal atleast. On first door your add tank needs to pickthree balcony adds and those little ones. A roaming basilisk isn't that threatening and cen just be healed throu. On second door you don't need to actually tank venompriests. Any mail/plate melee can kill them with priests on them. Third door only has three balcony adds tankable. Fourth door only has protectors and three bears that needs to be tanked. The flamecasters should be focused and killed asap by melee. Dinomancer to a degree can also be "tanked" by plate melee.
So for druid the 3rd door should be easy as that's only one add at first, then two more comes. Should be easy enough. On second door he should use berserk or incarnation, on fourth door its once more either berserk or incarnation. If you have trigger happy dps id suggest using incarnation on fourth door since adds on second door wont easily kill overzealous melee, but a bear swipe will definetly wreck the raid if not faced correctly and will hurt a lot more.

[Adsertif]

Casual? No more than 30.
Semi HC? 100 is getting excessive.
HC? Doesn't really matter, you go until the mob dies.

[judgementofantonidas]

Do you have two palas in raid, cause with one youd still need to tank swap atleast once (if you don't count after 4th gate goes down). Healing a 500 tank with 15 stacks, its really a no walk in the park. So with two palas bop dk when boss rams the door. With one pala - druid tanks boss on 1st door, dk on 2nd (gets bop), dk on 3rd (gets bop), dk 4th and bear taunts boss after door is closed, dk on war god and you just swap when the stacks gets high (8ish with horidon enraged). Should be dead when next swap must be made.
As for add tanking. Bare in mind that not all adds are needed to be tanked. On normal atleast. On first door your add tank needs to pickthree balcony adds and those little ones. A roaming basilisk isn't that threatening and cen just be healed throu. On second door you don't need to actually tank venompriests. Any mail/plate melee can kill them with priests on them. Third door only has three balcony adds tankable. Fourth door only has protectors and three bears that needs to be tanked. The flamecasters should be focused and killed asap by melee. Dinomancer to a degree can also be "tanked" by plate melee.
So for druid the 3rd door should be easy as that's only one add at first, then two more comes. Should be easy enough. On second door he should use berserk or incarnation, on fourth door its once more either berserk or incarnation. If you have trigger happy dps id suggest using incarnation on fourth door since adds on second door wont easily kill overzealous melee, but a bear swipe will definetly wreck the raid if not faced correctly and will hurt a lot more.

A paladin has been able to solo tank Horridon from day one. If your raid is over 500 ilvl and Dinomancer is getting no heals off Horridon should be under 50% health by gate four. You can effectively IGNORE war god other than one of the tanks keeping threat on him and burn down Horridon at that point.

[land]

Post logs?
/10char

[Forgettable]

If a tank dies, it's probably his own fault. If a healer can't keep a tank up, again this is probably the tank's fault. If the tank can't keep threat on things, this is probably a good indication that his deaths are also his fault. We had the exact same problems in our guild with a druid tank.

Solution: Find a new tank.

[Timmeh7]

We're probably at the higher-end of heroic progression 10 man; we usually have 14-16 people online for any given raid, so if someone's under-performing or repeats a stupid mistake they're likely to be replaced with someone on standby at the 3rd-5th wipe.

[judgementofantonidas]

We're probably at the higher-end of heroic progression 10 man; we usually have 14-16 people online for any given raid, so if someone's under-performing or repeats a stupid mistake they're likely to be replaced with someone on standby at the 3rd-5th wipe.

building towards that. it is definitely the way to go.

[Spotnick]

10 wipes WITHOUT ANY PROGRESSION is usually a sign that something needs to be fixed and you're doing something wrong.

And I insist on the "without any progression".

[Museigen]

I think it's pretty simple, if the tanks are dying your raid shouldn't be using a strategy that places more pressure on the tanks. Either that or bring in a new tank, which isn't an option for every guild I get. My guild is casual as hell and we spent an embarrassingly long time wiping on horridon, I'll say what worked for us.

We have a blood dk (me) and prot pally and 2 healed it with a disc and r.shaman. Our dps has always been very, very low and we have always relied on our healing/tanking to cover for low dps. What made matters the worst was the only poison dispel was the prot paladin and we had many, many wipes from gate 2 > gate 3. Our issue most overlooked was interrupts on gate 2, once we locked that down we had a small struggle on gate 3. I was tried of struggling and had called hero/pets on gate 3. Army/elementals/imps/stampede, are all targets of random threat adds for the disease stacks. After that horridon was a 1 shot each night.

Tank him next to the active gate, I hold him just outside the stone archway on the ground in front of each door. Don't stand in shit. Swap tanks every gate. Interrupt every single poison bolt volley. If you still struggle use every pet you have and hero on gate 3 to push towards the end, though with low dps wargod was a little rough.

Final notes since I play a tank. If your tank loses aggro at any point on any boss really, but especially horridon then your tank is your problem. Unless one of you is a heroic ToT geared dps and he's a quest green tank, he should hold threat by hitting half the buttons he needs to. If he's dying STANDING in double swipe, he needs to be awake while playing. There is plenty enough time to move from double swipe. Lastly is charge, have the target of charge run right on top of the horridon tank (right underneath the tail works too if they're closer to that) so horridon doesnt actually move much, if any, for his charge.

[Deleted]

In relation to OP's first post:

- Depends, is it normal, hc? And what were the reasons of the wipe? If you are using a tactic everyone uses then id say always analyze what went wrong in the first place and fix that? After 5 tries or so if tactics are not suited for your setup then change. But if its just personal mistakes just change that the next try.

P.S: the tank should be able to stay alive until either the healers die or at door 4 if he has a bear add on his butt or during the big guy. Anything else is just bad play.

[Andaja]

A paladin has been able to solo tank Horridon from day one. If your raid is over 500 ilvl and Dinomancer is getting no heals off Horridon should be under 50% health by gate four. You can effectively IGNORE war god other than one of the tanks keeping threat on him and burn down Horridon at that point.

OP didn't state (if he has I missed it) that they even had a paladin in raid. All he said was he had dk and bear and that they were having healing problems with having way higher stacks than "intended". So your saying about solo pala tanking is irrelevant. Also since they are stuck on normal for weeks the only thing you can think is that they are all doing everything wrong. With that in mind horridon isn't at 50% (most likely more towards 70% (since we understood that op thought charges are - loosing agro)). So leaving war god for extended periods of time will definetly kill them. Im not arguing that its imposible, but until he provides any logs or gives any more info ill continue to think that everything is wrong in that raid.

[Nobleshield]

OP didn't state (if he has I missed it) that they even had a paladin in raid. All he said was he had dk and bear and that they were having healing problems with having way higher stacks than "intended". So your saying about solo pala tanking is irrelevant. Also since they are stuck on normal for weeks the only thing you can think is that they are all doing everything wrong. With that in mind horridon isn't at 50% (most likely more towards 70% (since we understood that op thought charges are - loosing agro)). So leaving war god for extended periods of time will definetly kill them. Im not arguing that its imposible, but until he provides any logs or gives any more info ill continue to think that everything is wrong in that raid.

He mentioned a Holy Pally, so there's at least that. From what he said before it sounds like (guessing here) DPS is fairly low (adds probably not dying enough) and the tanks aren't swapping (apparently they tried a swap and it didn't work, but no further details were provided as to why), the DK is tanking Horridon the whole time and getting a HoP from the Pally at some point (possibly two from Clemency) and then getting owned by Horridon when he's at 12-15+ stacks of Triple Puncture. I want to say on average it's about 8-9 stacks of Puncture per door, so if he's getting HoP on Door #1 and Door #2 then it would coincide with the idea he's dying on Door #4 and/or War God because he'd be having over 15 stacks then, which hurts. Also if DPS is low then War God will be up longer and potentially wipe them too.

It sounds like the guild is just one of those guilds that raiding is seen as a fun activity, not the focus, so whoever is online gets brought instead of having a core team and people really aren't pressured that much. In other words, the perfect candidate for Flex raiding as the primary raid output (and no choosing people either, so no hard feelings from folks) with Normal being supplementary.

[Senen]

Then they're not doing their job right. I only take a "crap load" of damage when I (deliberately) get 20+ stacks of Triple Puncture, and even then the damage is a joke. Of course, if you're still on Horridon at this point in the patch, your tank (regardless of the class) is likely to be much worse geared than me (even though I'm still far from even Normal BIS gear), unless they've geared up in other raids before joining you. But even if that's the case, they can (assuming a paladin, since it doesn't sound like you're swapping) still clear their stacks each door rather than after 2-3 doors, and then not get high stacks of Triple Puncture.

TL;DR: If your tank is taking a lot of damage, they're either vastly undergeared, underperforming, or both.

It depends on gear, skill and class.
Some tank class with low gear take far more damage than others on Horridon. I've started to tank it first week of ToT with a 490ilvl warrior and I've done it recentl on a 490ilvl palprot, the incoming damage are nowhere close, this bos is a pure joke as palprot.

[RickJamesLich]

Sounds like a tank issue - a tank keeping threat should no longer be a problem, if they aren't doing so, they probably lack the necessary active mitigation (which shouldn't be that hard to obtain at this point). Also, almost every class has a threat drop too, and dps shouldn't be focusing on horridon at all while adds are up (the dps in this scenario is more at fault IMO).