Legendary cloak and tankadin

[Wyrden]

Hi guys,
i've been digging in the 5.4 official notes from the home page of Mmo and i have a question about this sentence:

Capacitive Primal Diamond, and Legendary melee cloaks (Fen-Yu, Fury of Xuen, and Gong-Lu, Strength of Xuen) now have a 40% reduced chance to activate its effects for characters that are in a tanking specialization.

It means that i can keep my dps cloak, get it legendary and use it for tanking?

Sorry for any mistakes in English and thanks for any answer,
Wyrden

[roflwaffle]

you can, but they wont proc very often at all, to the point where it's nearly useless

[Jellospally]

basically meta = 4% ish of your dmg instead of 8-9%(obviously sometimes its more) but yea its very very minimal if you are gonna be doing heroics soon and a lot def go tank meta(cloak is more if you can keep haste cap IMO or if the proc really can be gamed on a fight but the proc is underwhelming esp since they pushed it to 2 minutes).

If I can get another 1k haste id drop my cloak to tank one but until then I won't esp not for 10 man

[Wyrden]

Ok, i got it, thanks.
So i'm going to switch to the tank one...

[Kiea]

Don't pick one, get both.

They have different strengths, the tanking one is weak when fighting a lot of adds because of how the cheat death mechanic work, where as the DPS one is extremely powerful in those scenarios, killing the adds faster will be worth it.

Just saying that don't pick one and stick with it, get both and change depending on the fight, some figths might not have adds, but then again never put you in danger of dying as a tank unless you majorly screw up.

[Wyrden]

Woah, thanks for the reply, man.
My guild is a pretty casual one, so we raid almost on normal mode, no need to push all the dps i can (we raid 10m) for early prog.
Just for clarification, i can have all 2 legendary cloaks or 1 legenedary and 1 "normal"?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Woah, thanks for the reply, man.
My guild is a pretty casual one, so we raid almost on normal mode, no need to push all the dps i can (we raid 10m) for early prog.
Just for clarification, i can have all 2 legendary cloaks or 1 legenedary and 1 "normal"?

You can have all the legendary cloaks if you want.

[judgementofantonidas]

Hi guys,
i've been digging in the 5.4 official notes from the home page of Mmo and i have a question about this sentence:

It means that i can keep my dps cloak, get it legendary and use it for tanking?

Sorry for any mistakes in English and thanks for any answer,
Wyrden

your choices are a small boost to your damage opposed to an even smaller amount of protection.

keep your haste cloak buy buy a "tank" cloak to throw on for any fights where your healers may start to drop you for mysterious reasons. Same goes for the meta you are choosing between some extra damage and a meh protection proc. Seems an obvious choice if your healers are up to snuff.

[pld]

your choices are a small boost to your damage opposed to an even smaller amount of protection.

keep your haste cloak buy buy a "tank" cloak to throw on for any fights where your healers may start to drop you for mysterious reasons. Same goes for the meta you are choosing between some extra damage and a meh protection proc. Seems an obvious choice if your healers are up to snuff.

While the cloak is something that can be swapped around between fights, I personally feel like the tank meta is definitely worth grabbing now that 5.4 has hit. It's been changed to mitigate 20% of ALL damage (not just physical) and latest tests on the PTR has shown fairly high up times. Considering the 40% nerf in proc rate to the dps meta, it's probably not worth the minimal dps bump (over the tank meta) to hold onto it.

[Wyrden]

Yeah, for metagem i've been running with the tank one since i obtained it.
being a casual guild doesn't give me always the same healers, so i'm running a haste build with some stamina, tank meta and dps cloak. A bit messed up, but i can survive a little more in harsh situation.
Well, i'm going to get my cloak asap after work! Thanks again!

[gerus]

your choices are a small boost to your damage opposed to an even smaller amount of protection.

keep your haste cloak buy buy a "tank" cloak to throw on for any fights where your healers may start to drop you for mysterious reasons. Same goes for the meta you are choosing between some extra damage and a meh protection proc. Seems an obvious choice if your healers are up to snuff.

I think calling the tank meta gem proc 'meh' is a huge disservice to the meta gem proc. I generally think it's crazy powerful. I think it's so powerful that considering to use anything else beyond trivial content where you can provide all the heals needed for yourself is probably a mistake. It's changing a 20% flat reduction to damage for 10 seconds with a 65% uptime. If you watch your auras carefully you can time DivProt as the proc wears off and maintain a high, consistent uptime for 20% reduced damage. This should be a wet dream for people that pray at the altar of damage smoothness. This is so GOOD.

I'd posit that when choosing tanky v dps-y items like this we should look probably look at total raid contribution instead of just personal DPS gains/losses. I tend to believe that my significantly boosted survival by taking the meta gem is going to result in a meaningful reduction of healer attention needed in my direction. This can either result in: 1) more attonement style healing 2) reduction in # of healers or 3) healer attention on DPS so they don't die and/or have to burn a health pot or something along those lines. Any of those three situations either increases raid DPS at the cost of my personal DPS or evens it out.

I think the cloak is a similar type of argument. The 5.4 itemization for the tank cloak isn't that bad. You end up swapping parry for haste and then you've got exp and mastery which are both fine smoothing stats. The DPS cloak gives you wiggle room on taking either hit/exp for crit, so it's still a clearly better itemized cloak. The DPS cloak is going to provide a marginal at best DPS gain. The ~450 haste versus the ~450 crit is probably going to come out as a marginal damage smoothing gain. The real win is that you have a chance to absolve yourself and/or a healer of a derpy moment every two minutes on progression.

The AD style save is far from guaranteed. If the cloak procs at 12% hp, it's unlikely that you'll make it past the next swing. I believe it will have a meaningful reduction in personal/healer derp related wipes and I'll be equipping it until farm and/or a ridiculous DPS race. I hate derp wipes with a passion. Especially because it can be one mistake in 4 minutes that does it. 0.5% HP wipes are a lot easier to deal with from past experience. I think a majority of really experienced progression tanks are taking this stance too. Everyone derps.

I think in terms of big picture we need to re-examine the personal DPS vs healer attention positioning in 5.4. I've gotten the gut feel that with the amount of secondary stats available to us with T16 and HT16 loot we'll be able to increase our incoming dmg smoothness by a huge amount. At high levels of haste, each point in mastery becomes significantly more powerful. I think it's possible that a mitigation focused tank (haste to around the 50% cap, mastery past that) may be able to contribute something like 90% of their own healing and drop required healing attention to zero. I think Theck may be seeing some of this as well in SimC (he tweeted something about HT16 gearing sims to result in a TMI of 10, two orders of magnitude better than T15). It'll be interesting to see what kind of fun we can generate in SoO.

[Mooshelle]

You can have all the legendary cloaks if you want.

When I went to buy my os cloak the I kept getting "you may only have one cloak of virtue" notifaction....is this a bug?

[Nairobi]

I think calling the tank meta gem proc 'meh' is a huge disservice to the meta gem proc. I generally think it's crazy powerful. I think it's so powerful that considering to use anything else beyond trivial content where you can provide all the heals needed for yourself is probably a mistake. It's changing a 20% flat reduction to damage for 10 seconds with a 65% uptime. If you watch your auras carefully you can time DivProt as the proc wears off and maintain a high, consistent uptime for 20% reduced damage. This should be a wet dream for people that pray at the altar of damage smoothness. This is so GOOD.

QFT. The metagem is so powerful that it is essentially a 15% damage reduction. I've not bothered to sync DivProt to it personally, since I'm running 4t15 and just spamming DivProt for HoPo, but yes, it is extremely powerful.

I'd posit that when choosing tanky v dps-y items like this we should look probably look at total raid contribution instead of just personal DPS gains/losses. I tend to believe that my significantly boosted survival by taking the meta gem is going to result in a meaningful reduction of healer attention needed in my direction. This can either result in: 1) more attonement style healing 2) reduction in # of healers or 3) healer attention on DPS so they don't die and/or have to burn a health pot or something along those lines. Any of those three situations either increases raid DPS at the cost of my personal DPS or evens it out.

While the metagem is indeed quite powerful, I don't know that we can say that it's enough to drop healers in and of itself. It's a bit unrealistic to think that [most] healers will be attentive/aware enough to alter their healing style to conserve mana or change targets based on tank CD uses/procs. It's just too haphazard OR it's used in conjunction with a high-damage period, meaning that you basically break even. I am not at all disagreeing with you, just pointing out the "real world" ramifications.

I think the cloak is a similar type of argument. The 5.4 itemization for the tank cloak isn't that bad. You end up swapping parry for haste and then you've got exp and mastery which are both fine smoothing stats. The DPS cloak gives you wiggle room on taking either hit/exp for crit, so it's still a clearly better itemized cloak. The DPS cloak is going to provide a marginal at best DPS gain. The ~450 haste versus the ~450 crit is probably going to come out as a marginal damage smoothing gain. The real win is that you have a chance to absolve yourself and/or a healer of a derpy moment every two minutes on progression.

Agreed again. We're sitting on ~18-20k haste, and we're bitching about giving up essentially 450 haste. Obviously in a game of inches, every bit matters, but the fact is that MOST of us aren't even using our GCDs fast enough to notice that 450 haste that we're screaming about. The DPS cloak is good for adds or farm, but honestly, the tank one is quite a no-brainer, especially while learning.

The AD style save is far from guaranteed. If the cloak procs at 12% hp, it's unlikely that you'll make it past the next swing. I believe it will have a meaningful reduction in personal/healer derp related wipes and I'll be equipping it until farm and/or a ridiculous DPS race. I hate derp wipes with a passion. Especially because it can be one mistake in 4 minutes that does it. 0.5% HP wipes are a lot easier to deal with from past experience. I think a majority of really experienced progression tanks are taking this stance too. Everyone derps.

As above: Hell, even last night, it saved my ass on something when I wasn't paying attention: I had a stack on Immerseus and he shot again. Tank cape fully absorbed the 1.2mil hit (or whatever it was) and since I was topped at the time, I didn't even notice...Granted the fight is a joke, but still.

I think in terms of big picture we need to re-examine the personal DPS vs healer attention positioning in 5.4. I've gotten the gut feel that with the amount of secondary stats available to us with T16 and HT16 loot we'll be able to increase our incoming dmg smoothness by a huge amount. At high levels of haste, each point in mastery becomes significantly more powerful. I think it's possible that a mitigation focused tank (haste to around the 50% cap, mastery past that) may be able to contribute something like 90% of their own healing and drop required healing attention to zero. I think Theck may be seeing some of this as well in SimC (he tweeted something about HT16 gearing sims to result in a TMI of 10, two orders of magnitude better than T15). It'll be interesting to see what kind of fun we can generate in SoO.

I am also looking at this, especially after 4t16 and a moderately high mastery level with EF. We're going to be insanely self-sufficient.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Somebody I know was commenting that he ran a T16 BiS paladin through SC and got a TMI under 70. And comparing that to a BiS warrior. And crying.

[gerus]

While the metagem is indeed quite powerful, I don't know that we can say that it's enough to drop healers in and of itself. It's a bit unrealistic to think that [most] healers will be attentive/aware enough to alter their healing style to conserve mana or change targets based on tank CD uses/procs. It's just too haphazard OR it's used in conjunction with a high-damage period, meaning that you basically break even. I am not at all disagreeing with you, just pointing out the "real world" ramifications.

I mean I've only had a night with pretty horrid WA setup so my healers and I haven't really been able to play with too much yet. We're interested in how much attention we have to pay each other in 5.4 though. I'm curious if stringing together proc + DivProt for 85% uptime does actually result in real world QoL improvement for my healers. QoL for my healers being atonement > direct heals. We're going to play with EF and such during normal modes to see how far we can push pally self healing. I think it requires both the tank and the healer adjusting some and it's difficult to get this changed overnight.

I'm trying to preach some of this stuff in a general sense so we can get some interesting discussion going around exploring the extent of our self-reliability in SoO / 5.4.