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  1. #281
    Just saw a tweet from GC in reply to:
    Just look at WoL for 25 man and then say Paladins are fine.
    Are we caught in a time loop here? My original reply was "meters are a terrible way to assess healer potency." (Source)

    First off, I'd love to know what they use to assess/balance healer potency.
    Also, I find it funny that they say that 25m Paladins are fine. We can look decent on meters, but our raid throughput is horrid since we still blanket with EF.
    I replied with:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

  2. #282
    The worst of all is him saying how "meters make Disc look better than they are."

    If anything given Disc's contribution to raid DPS, their absorbs which are far more effective at actually saving a person compared to a reactive heal, their absorbs which lower pressure on other healers compared to reactive healing, and their PW:B, and tank healing potential (from PW:S possibly boosted by divine insight), and buff-sniping potential (twist of fate)...

    the meters actually make them look worse than they are.

  3. #283
    Yeah but compare that too http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

    Bear in mind they don't just "fix" a class because it seems to be weaker in one raid type. You play 25 man & you suck compared to the other classes, "ok". Someone has too you'll never have balance & mechanics / fights will always favour some over others.

    @ the disc thing - it's so easy to pad a meter as disc & do lots of hps in all the wrong places.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The worst of all is him saying how "meters make Disc look better than they are."

    If anything given Disc's contribution to raid DPS, their absorbs which are far more effective at actually saving a person compared to a reactive heal, their absorbs which lower pressure on other healers compared to reactive healing, and their PW:B, and tank healing potential (from PW:S possibly boosted by divine insight), and buff-sniping potential (twist of fate)...

    the meters actually make them look worse than they are.
    I agree with you 100%. Being proactive as a good disc can kill other healers throughput.

    I've finally given up raiding on my holy paly. Made the call this week. It's a shame really. Been competitive heroic raiding since vanilla. I just can't stand our playstyle. Haven't had fun for a while. Still enjoy alt raiding...just not on my paly. Oh well, there's always next expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffpower View Post
    Yeah but compare that too http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

    Bear in mind they don't just "fix" a class because it seems to be weaker in one raid type. You play 25 man & you suck compared to the other classes, "ok". Someone has too you'll never have balance & mechanics / fights will always favour some over others.

    @ the disc thing - it's so easy to pad a meter as disc & do lots of hps in all the wrong places.
    I never argued that 10m pallies weren't okay. It's 25m where we are very lackluster. To say that someone has to be last is valid. To say that we have to be last by that much is pretty ridiculous. It's not even about being last - it's about our raid throughput. Blanket EFs are just silly.
    Also @ disc padding: If it's absorbing damage, it's doing it's job. To say the HPS is padding in all the wrong places is just generalizing the issue. padding a meter as disc and doing lots of hps in all the right places still impacts other healers throughput.

    And a solution to fix our healing is easy: Increase LOD. It's shit for 25m. It's such shit that you have to blanket EF.
    Last edited by mcbubble; 2013-10-15 at 10:46 AM.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    And a solution to fix our healing is easy: Increase LOD. It's shit for 25m. It's such shit that you have to blanket EF.
    The easiest solution (not even the best solution, but by far both easiest and "a solution") would be to go back to 5.3 before Blizzard's brilliant ideas, but obviously they are too thick-headed to do so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I agree with you 100%. Being proactive as a good disc can kill other healers throughput.
    It's not even that but in all honesty when you erase disc from the equation, our throughput doesn't really substantially increase either. We're not appreciably farther away from our max throughput in most situations (minus farm) with or without a disc in raid.

    This fight, Malkorok, on 25 is probably one of the best "max throughput" indicator fights where no disc is available to "snipe the raid."

    Look at where we lie: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Malkorok/...00000000111111

    Especially note that while some HoT-based classes (monks) can get a bit more than max, for the most part Disc is at max throughput there also (there's little ways they can "cheese more"), and for the most part Paladins as well.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The easiest solution (not even the best solution, but by far both easiest and "a solution") would be to go back to 5.3 before Blizzard's brilliant ideas, but obviously they are too thick-headed to do so.
    I would also love to see us have more raid utility. Devo is just pathetic in the grand scheme of things. It's so infuriating to see other classes have "oh shit" buttons while we don't. Not only from a raid success standpoint, but of course from a healing throughput standpoint as well... to see a Shammy go from approximately equal to you on the meters to 20% ahead of you with one button is annoying.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrymp View Post
    I would also love to see us have more raid utility. Devo is just pathetic in the grand scheme of things. It's so infuriating to see other classes have "oh shit" buttons while we don't. Not only from a raid success standpoint, but of course from a healing throughput standpoint as well... to see a Shammy go from approximately equal to you on the meters to 20% ahead of you with one button is annoying.
    Being on the other side of the fence, when I went into this LFR on my shit-geared, no gems, no enchants shaman last day... This poor, poor (fully gear-enhanced) paladin was spamming his Light of Dawn and working his ass off to earn his top spot.

    Then comes the Lightning Storm. As McBubble so well put it, push that one-button Healing Tide, YOLO straight to the top, stayed there the entire run. Repeat that entire pattern for 5 more bosses, we had quite a pissed off healer by the end.

    * Exception: At the start of Megaera some retard pulled the two heads which both breathed on our group. That one-button Healing Tide went down, YOLO, and nobody else even had a chance from the start to begin with.

  8. #288
    Deleted
    Malkorok is a very bad indication for max output due to how smart heals are determined,

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Malkorok is a very bad indication for max output due to how smart heals are determined,
    Most of which doesn't apply to Paladins or Disc, and the classes that are topping us out have far more smart heal reliance (except perhaps disc) than Paladins do.

  10. #290
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Most of which doesn't apply to Paladins or Disc, and the classes that are topping us out have far more smart heal reliance (except perhaps disc) than Paladins do.
    Not really, don't forget the AoE changes make them smart, which is why you see huge overheal numbers on spells like Healing Rain. I'm not saying it changes your argument but the classes such as shaman & druids who have extremely powerful ground AE get neutered substantially.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Not really, don't forget the AoE changes make them smart, which is why you see huge overheal numbers on spells like Healing Rain. I'm not saying it changes your argument but the classes such as shaman & druids who have extremely powerful ground AE get neutered substantially.
    Which was my point to begin with, considering that Efflo and HR (healing rain) are far more potent than the other HR (holy radiance) if anything that would gimp shamans and druids, but in the raidbots I linked, despite those two abilities gimped, they are still outperforming Paladins.

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puffpower View Post
    Yeah but compare that too http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

    Bear in mind they don't just "fix" a class because it seems to be weaker in one raid type. You play 25 man & you suck compared to the other classes, "ok". Someone has too you'll never have balance & mechanics / fights will always favour some over others.

    @ the disc thing - it's so easy to pad a meter as disc & do lots of hps in all the wrong places.
    There is so much wrong in this whole post. Saying they don't need to balance the healers in both raid types is completely false. So all holy paladins should switch to 10m raiding because they suck in 25m? Well guess every 25m holy paladin should leave their guild. Makes so much sense. Healers should be competitive in both formats. And saying disc isn't actually good and just padding is just straight delusional.

    Stop posting if you aren't going to at least make a shred of effort to actually know what you are talking about.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-10-15 at 01:59 PM.

  13. #293
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffpower View Post
    Yeah but compare that too http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

    Bear in mind they don't just "fix" a class because it seems to be weaker in one raid type. You play 25 man & you suck compared to the other classes, "ok". Someone has too you'll never have balance & mechanics / fights will always favour some over others.

    @ the disc thing - it's so easy to pad a meter as disc & do lots of hps in all the wrong places.
    So I know this is being thrown around a lot but back in TBC a player doing 500 dps and 500 hps was considered balanced when other players did 1200 dps or 1200 hps. Someone doing 100k dps and on top of that 150k hps while the other healers do pretty much the same amount of hps is not balanced at all.

    On top of that disc priests were considered good in wotlk and every 25 man raid wanted 1 of them even though they did less healing than all other classes. You want to know why? Because they had extremely broken absorbs, here im not talking about stuff like their current mastery (or ours for that sake) but power word shield (and now also spirit shell) which very often can prevent people from dying.

    Absorbs >>> Healing. Even if the absorb does less effective "healing" than a regular healing spell, it has been that way since naxxloleasymode and will stay that way till its removed.

  14. #294
    For me i think it would be better to change how absorbs work. It would be a better solution if you don't realy absorb dmg, rather it should be something like that.

    Absorb effects now reduce incoming dmg for x% up to a value of y. Now you can make x static(say 10% for example) and let y scale with mastery and the amount healed. Or you can let x scale with mastery and y with the amount of heal. Or something i can't imagine right now. You have the same effect of increasing the effectiv health of players, but you didn't snipe every heal from the other healers.
    You have absorb on you with 10% and a value of 50k. Now you get a 200k hit. You only get a 180k hit and the shield is reduced by 20k.
    Especially in AoE situations where absorbs heal more than the incomming DMG the other healers would have something to heal instead of waiting that all shields are used up.
    Last edited by Figaro10; 2013-10-15 at 03:10 PM.

  15. #295
    Right, the suggestion that an absorb is given the AMS treatment, it only reduces a % of damage with a limit as to how much damage is totally absorbed.

    I posted this suggestion on priest (or something) forums months ago, and I'm glad to see only now when the Disc class has gone from obscene to super, duper obscene that others are actually taking this idea (not necessarily my suggestion of it) seriously.

  16. #296
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    And a solution to fix our healing is easy: Increase LOD. It's shit for 25m. It's such shit that you have to blanket EF.
    LoD and EF are mutually exclusive and if LoD+random tier 45 talent would outheal EF none would go EF. Remember LoD is a smart heal that requires nothing else then pushing the button while EF's healing actually requires a proper target to begin with(and damage patterns, etc)

    Its not really as bad as raidbots show, and tbh for the dominance of the other classes you can blame DR caps on DStar/Halo/Healing Tide/Tranq/etc.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    LoD and EF are mutually exclusive and if LoD+random tier 45 talent would outheal EF none would go EF. Remember LoD is a smart heal that requires nothing else then pushing the button while EF's healing actually requires a proper target to begin with(and damage patterns, etc)

    Its not really as bad as raidbots show, and tbh for the dominance of the other classes you can blame DR caps on DStar/Halo/Healing Tide/Tranq/etc.
    I understand and agree with everything you said, but the issue is our playstyle. Our throughput and numbers are okay, but it's all from EF.
    Proper targets and damage patterns aside, we still blanket a raid in EFs.

    Right now the only way to competitively heal in heroic 25ms is EF. So why not buff LOD to force people off of EF? Basically make all of our t45 crap to 25ms.
    I don't know. The reason I'm done with my paly is the playstyle. I still enjoy raids, I still enjoy healing. I do NOT enjoy using my holy power finisher to EF the most viable target.

    Also, it's not just raidbots that shows it, but disc is back with it's dominance. Disc/shammies and druid have us destroyed in sheer HPS:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../#tab-25Heroic
    Last edited by mcbubble; 2013-10-15 at 04:04 PM.

  18. #298
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    I understand and agree with everything you said, but the issue is our playstyle. Our throughput and numbers are okay, but it's all from EF.
    Proper targets and damage patterns aside, we still blanket a raid in EFs.

    Right now the only way to competitively heal in heroic 25ms is EF. So why not buff LOD to force people off of EF? Basically make all of our t45 crap to 25ms.
    I don't know. The reason I'm done with my paly is the playstyle. I still enjoy raids, I still enjoy healing. I do NOT enjoy using my holy power finisher to EF the most viable target.
    The problem is when Holy Radiance got Pandaria'd the importance of the Holy Power finishers became too much. LoD was worth 10-20% of healing in Cata when combined with its produced IH, now you need the Holy Power Finisher to be worth 50-60% of total healing.

    Now as you know LoD is smart+absorb while EF is targeted+hot+absorb(somewhat). Its obvious which is meant to win, and its obvious Blizzard is going to tune Holy Paladins based on the winner.

  19. #299
    make holy avenger a 1 min cd and we compete aoe in 25 mans imo.......I only run 25 man in our guild flex runs otherwise im 10 man only....i without hesitation blow meters off the top in 10 man...in 25 man I can still claim top spot or at least close to it, but that is working my ass off and just healing for the sake of beating #2. Not really the best healing style but it works.

    I also don't EF blanket in our flex as it seems to be lower than when I keep to my nuke healing play style. But then again i rarely ever EF blanket as it is in any circumstance and have never needed to all while staying extremely competitive to any class.

    But, like i said, if holy avenger was a 1 min cd I think we would be on par with the easyness of heals acquired that other classes have.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    make holy avenger a 1 min cd and we compete aoe in 25 mans imo.......I only run 25 man in our guild flex runs otherwise im 10 man only....i without hesitation blow meters off the top in 10 man...in 25 man I can still claim top spot or at least close to it, but that is working my ass off and just healing for the sake of beating #2. Not really the best healing style but it works.

    I also don't EF blanket in our flex as it seems to be lower than when I keep to my nuke healing play style. But then again i rarely ever EF blanket as it is in any circumstance and have never needed to all while staying extremely competitive to any class.

    But, like i said, if holy avenger was a 1 min cd I think we would be on par with the easyness of heals acquired that other classes have.
    HA is a talent, not an ability. You reduce the CD on that, it affects the other 2 specs. Not going to happen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The solution is not is buffing talents and CDs, it is in fixing our core play style back to competitive levels.

    What kills me is the removal of EF HoTs stacking mastery to "get us away from it" only to see the HoT buffed to silly levels and everyone back to EF.

    Can someone call a doctor to Blizz HQ and examine the dev team for dementia?

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