Is PVP gear too low tuned compared to pve gear?

[t3180]

PVP gear even with every pvp piece will put you at about 20-25% pvp power , that is including gems.

PVE Gear has more sockets, and a way higher budget, the 60 item level difference means nearly a 100% difference in stats, look at the stat budget difference on wowhead.

Then you factor in the extra sockets on pve gear, AND the legendary cloak having a proc + 3 stats + sockets (?) the difference is gigantic. And the fact from flex / normal mode raiding you can easily get 2/3 pieces per week, a pvper might get 1 522 ring, whilst a pver gets 3 540 + pieces?

Well igot 38% pvp power. Maybe you should count weapons pvp power too. Next season igot 44% but maybe its just me.
Remember count set bonuses too . I doubt you even pvp. But nice trolling.

Lets not call other people trolls because they say something different.

[Deleted]

Well igot 38% pvp power. Maybe you should count weapons pvp power too. Next season igot 44% but maybe its just me.
Remember count set bonuses too . I doubt you even pvp. But nice trolling.

I doubt you even pvp , nice trolling.

What? I'm not trolling , and I fail to see your problem, did my observation about pvp gear being subpar offend you somehow?

38% pvp power would assume 100% pvppower gems currently , leaving you way way less primary stat than pve geared people. Also even with 44% , 44% of 100 (say that is our current damage out put) makes 144. Compare that to the equivalent 200+ theoretical damage output of pve gear , it is still way less.

[Stormspellz]

No, decrease the secondary stat budget a bit if that is your concern and increase the pvp power budget. Having gear pieces that take 2/3 weeks to farm per piece be the same ilevel as NORMAL level SOO gear is not making the mandatory . SOO normal is a cake walk anyway, a lot of guild have 9 bosses + in the first night of progression. Having the same item level as a normal mode raid tier does not make it near manadatory anyway, make it 3 item levels lower if it pleases you.

I can't even kill mobs on the island in pvp gear without some pve hero with ilevel 560 killing me in 3 dots (im a dk)

actually it does make it manditory as rng drops are rng and due to the scaling of secondary stats for some specs that would make pvp gear bis for pve, but having pvp gear at least the same ilvl as looking for loot should be done.

[Sithalos]

World PvP doesn't matter. Hasn't mattered since BGs were first introduced in vanilla and will never matter again. There's no reason for Blizzard to balance for a style of PvP that is unbalanced in nature. World PvP is only about which side has more players, that's literally all that matters in world PvP, so wasting time trying to balance gear when the only thing that matters is the number of players is stupid.

Then why are PvP servers still a thing?

[Deleted]

actually it does make it manditory as rng drops are rng and due to the scaling of secondary stats for some specs that would make pvp gear bis for pve, but having pvp gear at least the same ilvl as looking for loot should be done.

I fail to see the problem, most normal mode gear will be upgraded into heroic gear not long , and if the pvp and pve gear is the same so what ? pvp gear still takes ages to complete a full set, and it still wouldnt be as good as the bis pve gear.

[ophion1990]

World PvP doesn't matter. Hasn't mattered since BGs were first introduced in vanilla and will never matter again. There's no reason for Blizzard to balance for a style of PvP that is unbalanced in nature. World PvP is only about which side has more players, that's literally all that matters in world PvP, so wasting time trying to balance gear when the only thing that matters is the number of players is stupid.

World PvP isn't always 10v1. With such a ridiculous gap in gear even 1v1 is completly unbalanced, which is what the OP is getting at. I saw this coming but I really didn't expect things to be this bad. Then again, not everyone is running around in HC Thunderforged, picking off LFR or normal geared players is alot easier.

[Tyrean]

I doubt you even pvp , nice trolling.

What? I'm not trolling , and I fail to see your problem, did my observation about pvp gear being subpar offend you somehow?

38% pvp power would assume 100% pvppower gems currently , leaving you way way less primary stat than pve geared people. Also even with 44% , 44% of 100 (say that is our current damage out put) makes 144. Compare that to the equivalent 200+ theoretical damage output of pve gear , it is still way less.

Um I just looked at my armory and I have 37.18% power with 3 +80 power gems and a pve trinket. (and power meta). I do not think 38% with all PvE gems is a far reach.

[Deleted]

World PvP doesn't matter. Hasn't mattered since BGs were first introduced in vanilla and will never matter again. There's no reason for Blizzard to balance for a style of PvP that is unbalanced in nature. World PvP is only about which side has more players, that's literally all that matters in world PvP, so wasting time trying to balance gear when the only thing that matters is the number of players is stupid.

You are wrong in so many ways. If you played in Vanilla and TBC you would have seen some epic world PvP wars. Still, being out and about in the world questing, farming, crafting or whatever you will encounter enemy players attacking you so give me one good reason a PvP player (ye that's right, a PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER) character should be gimped against a PvE player (PLAYER AGAINST ENVIRONMENT PLAYER)?

Sometimes I think people have forgotten what those terms mean.

[Deleted]

Um I just looked at my armory and I have 37.18% power with 3 +80 power gems and a pve trinket. (and power meta). I do not think 38% with all PvE gems is a far reach.

likely i didnt factor something in, but you are behind the pver exceptionally in pve stats (pve gear has more sockets, secondary weapon stat + other trinket + procs), and in likelihood way behind in primary simply because of ilevels.

PvP gear is becoming a bit irrelevant imo.

[PrairieChicken]

It is rubbish in wpvp, but it is really dead starting from tbc

so although I would like some solutions I won't whine too much about it since we don't have to see pve gear in arenas/bgs anymore

[loki504]

It is rubbish in wpvp, but it is really dead starting from tbc

so although I would like some solutions I won't whine too much about it since we don't have to see pve gear in arenas/bgs anymore

well i'm from defias brotherhood where wpvp is still very much alive. i do wpvp on a daily base. and i love it. its the only reeason i still play. but i'm forced to do pve. because even lfr gear and legendary stuff is still better then the pvp gear i can get. and that is just stupid. being some where around the same ilvl is fine. or even the same ilvl but more survival/dmg is fine for me. i'm not looking for free pve geared kills. i'm looking for good fights. but hf trying to figh a 600k dps class while only have ing 450 is plain stupid.

[Decorpse]

You are wrong in so many ways. If you played in Vanilla and TBC you would have seen some epic world PvP wars. Still, being out and about in the world questing, farming, crafting or whatever you will encounter enemy players attacking you so give me one good reason a PvP player (ye that's right, a PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER) character should be gimped against a PvE player (PLAYER AGAINST ENVIRONMENT PLAYER)?

Sometimes I think people have forgotten what those terms mean.

This. What incentives have PvP players have over PvE players traditionally? PvP gear that makes them harder to play against in all types of PvP. Thats it. No gold (no im not looting bodies for 24 copper) no mounts (hardly) little new content. We work for our gear, not like afking through lfr for epics. But apparently Blizz wants us to willingly forefit the only incentive we have as PvP'ers, which really sucks. I can see them closing the gap a little from cata where a full geared pvp player would destroy a pve player everytime, but making them equally strong(or stronger) in pvp with pve gear as the pvp player whose worked for that pvp gear is kind of a slap in the face to the pvp players.

[Tyrean]

likely i didnt factor something in, but you are behind the pver exceptionally in pve stats (pve gear has more sockets, secondary weapon stat + other trinket + procs), and in likelihood way behind in primary simply because of ilevels.

PvP gear is becoming a bit irrelevant imo.

I found this idea interesting so I did a direct comparison with another PvE hero in my guild. We are both specced frost on the armory. He is a tank mainly, so his gear may not be optimized, I have no idea. Here is how it breaks down.

Stat - Me - Him - %increase

ilvl - 495 - 544 - 9.8%

STR - 15405 - 22402 - 45.4%

Mastery - 35.93% - 34.67% - eh

AP - 31060 - 45054 - 45.05%

So the somewhat relevant stats for doing damage are more or less offset by my pvp power of 37%. (but I am still in the hole by a small margin.)

Now the interesting thing is the defensive stats.

Armor - 32861 - 38044 - 15.7%

Health - 401287 - 554979 - 38.2%

Dodge - 3.02% - 7.95%

Parry - 18.83% - 28.07%


So as you can see when I meet this 544 geared guy out in the world we will do similar amounts of damage to each other, but he will have more defenses than I will. I assume that I will be able to overcome his extra health and defense with my intelligent PvP experience. He gets utterly demolished in arena/BG though. I think that is a fair trade and I am not entirely sure what all the complaining is about.

EDIT: FYI he is fully heroic geared with thunderforged items and legendary cloak. Basically the top geared player the devs talk about you not meeting that much. So this is an example of a top geared PvP player and a top geared PvE player of the same class and spec.

[Decorpse]

Do you think thats a fair trade? I dont. His getting destroyed in arena is how people learn how to play their class, we've all been there. Why dont the pvp players gear in full pve gear, forcing pvp players to pve for the defensive advantage? Wouldnt that suck? "I lost to an equally skilled player because hes in pve gear and im in pvp gear, makes sense, my own fault!" *barf*

[Tyrean]

I think that is a fair trade. The baseline resilience and gear scaling was an attempt to allow PvE players to transition into PvP without being useless and spending all their time on the floor. This is doing exactly that. If they want to be competitive in arena or RBG they have to get PvP gear. If they don't then they are fine in the 1800 bracket.

Out in the world, if for some reason I run into a 1v1 in this scenario where it is 495 vs 544, then I actually expect I would win barring class imbalances. How often is it a 1v1 though? World pvp will never be fair, it is the whole point of world pvp. People trying to make it fair are somewhat silly.

[Deleted]

I found this idea interesting so I did a direct comparison with another PvE hero in my guild. We are both specced frost on the armory. He is a tank mainly, so his gear may not be optimized, I have no idea. Here is how it breaks down.

Stat - Me - Him - %increase

ilvl - 495 - 544 - 9.8%

STR - 15405 - 22402 - 45.4%

Mastery - 35.93% - 34.67% - eh

AP - 31060 - 45054 - 45.05%

So the somewhat relevant stats for doing damage are more or less offset by my pvp power of 37%. (but I am still in the hole by a small margin.)

Now the interesting thing is the defensive stats.

Armor - 32861 - 38044 - 15.7%

Health - 401287 - 554979 - 38.2%

Dodge - 3.02% - 7.95%

Parry - 18.83% - 28.07%


So as you can see when I meet this 544 geared guy out in the world we will do similar amounts of damage to each other, but he will have more defenses than I will. I assume that I will be able to overcome his extra health and defense with my intelligent PvP experience. He gets utterly demolished in arena/BG though. I think that is a fair trade and I am not entirely sure what all the complaining is about.

EDIT: FYI he is fully heroic geared with thunderforged items and legendary cloak. Basically the top geared player the devs talk about you not meeting that much. So this is an example of a top geared PvP player and a top geared PvE player of the same class and spec.

You didn't factor in things like crit, and haste? which pve players will have a lot more of too given pvp gear has less secondaries (weapon + ilevel) and he might have reforged fully to crit, why not include all secondaries?

Also pvp gear will get 20 item levels higher by the end of expansion and take ages to farm, the weapon especially. (Does it still require 8000 conquest gained or w/e?) whilst pve gear will be 35~ item levels higher, being upgradable and just higher including heroic gear, AND you didn't factor in weapon damage which is huge for melee classes.

[Tyrean]

You didn't factor in things like crit, and haste? which pve players will have a lot more of too given pvp gear has less secondaries (weapon + ilevel) and he might have reforged fully to crit, why not include all secondaries?

Also pvp gear will get 20 item levels higher by the end of expansion and take ages to farm, the weapon especially. (Does it still require 8000 conquest gained or w/e?) whilst pve gear will be 35~ item levels higher, being upgradable and just higher including heroic gear, AND you didn't factor in weapon damage which is huge for melee classes.

Sigh. Yeah I did not do all the math or sim the damage or look at how defensive and offensive cooldowns are affected by the increased stats. You got me, I did napkin math to see if it was close and it was! Go nitpick elsewhere, the general idea is sound.

Oh, and the general idea is that PvP gear is still the best for instanced PvP and out in the world the sky is not falling like everyone suggests.

[Ultima]

Instanced PvP? No.

World PvP? Not to me, possibly for you. Timeless Isle has been jokes for me. Less fun for the ToT + Orange Cloak guys, I assure you.

[Farora]

On the Timeless Isle it's pretty obvious pve geared people reign surpreme. 600k+ hp and insane damage stats. Good job Blizzard!

[GKLeatherCraft]

I agree with this, It should be higher, It doesn't matter if "PvP isn't the main game blah blah" Because it is in the game, and a lot of people do it, And it's not right that PvE players will have such a huge advantage in W-PvP, W-PvP is very popular on my realm with us having about 4-5 W-PvP guilds and I think it's just not good enough the way it stands, Resilience on the gear should sort it, That's how it should be, PvP gear needs a clear advantage to make up for such a huge gear gap.