I am requiring my guild to do their spec's "Gold" Proving Grounds - thoughts?

[Tankitbetter]

WoW forums?

I'd have to know your characters name to try to give you an idea. I figure it has to be a fairly common character name, though.

Possibly. Uh...over the years...

Ryuujin, Larias, Tankiteasy, Laradrin, Damnstalker, Damnathor. All I can think of off the top of my head.

[Hyve]

I'll let you know right now that it is a stupid requirement. I can see the logic behind it, but the way in which Proving Grounds work, it just doesn't have that purpose.

I've been a healer all my life within World of Warcraft, I've healed in top 30 EU / World Guilds and I've done some of the most challenging content available, yet ... As a mistweaver on the Gold Proving Ground, I just can't seem to do anything! My HoT spells don't even outweigh the DoT damage going around, and having to remove various debuffs from people via healing them 90% requires hardcasting Surging Mist, and going OOM within 4 - 6 waves.

My friends on the other hand, Druids, Paladins & Priests have all had no issue at all. They struggled a little, but when I recorded my takes and let them watch, they were shocked as to how hard it is for Mistweavers in comparison.

So, my point here isn't just about how Mistweavers are screwed, my point here is that if one spec can be really bad, despite the person behind it, then it can happen to various other players, and so requiring Gold is a stupid approach when the skill cap to gain gold for some people is going to be much, much higher.

[Tankitbetter]

I'll let you know right now that it is a stupid requirement. I can see the logic behind it, but the way in which Proving Grounds work, it just doesn't have that purpose.

I've been a healer all my life within World of Warcraft, I've healed in top 30 EU / World Guilds and I've done some of the most challenging content available, yet ... As a mistweaver on the Gold Proving Ground, I just can't seem to do anything! My HoT spells don't even outweigh the DoT damage going around, and having to remove various debuffs from people via healing them 90% requires hardcasting Surging Mist, and going OOM within 4 - 6 waves.

My friends on the other hand, Druids, Paladins & Priests have all had no issue at all. They struggled a little, but when I recorded my takes and let them watch, they were shocked as to how hard it is for Mistweavers in comparison.

So, my point here isn't just about how Mistweavers are screwed, my point here is that if one spec can be really bad, despite the person behind it, then it can happen to various other players, and so requiring Gold is a stupid approach when the skill cap to gain gold for some people is going to be much, much higher.

Some other players have said that. I don't really disagree with ya since I have no knowledge, ya know?

I think that when I have a player who comes to me and says "I absolutely cannot do this" I'll address it then. So far, that hasn't happened.

[kamuimac]

I've heard healing monks,.

erm no healing monks can heal very well in PG up to silver only in compeltly different style that u gonna heal in raids - and by comletly i mean totaly completly different -_- they can also do silve mode dps chalenge as MW but that wasnt the point >< healing in raid is just so much different gold is just different matter -_-

[Swankyy]

Update: There seems to be some confusion so I'll back up the story some. My guild is a casual, 1 night a raid guild whose first raid was Wednesday night. I have never raided with the vast majority of the ~20 people who showed up in a wide variety of ilvl and raid experiences. I had players who are former hardcore heroic raiders who don't have time to raid more than 1 night a week and players who first started playing WoW 2 months ago. I have players in 505 ilvl and players in 540 ilvl with legendary cloaks. It's a melting pot. It went decently well but there were a lot of mistakes by a lot of people. I decided to implement the gold requirement in order to potentially weed out those who just want to be carried and to help identify those who would need extra attention in the raid.

So far, overall, it's worked. We now have 4 or 5 people who haven't done it yet. Some of the people - including a DPS DK and a healer shaman - had some problems in it and I was able to give advice on certain rounds to do certain things to help them. Many looked up videos or strategies - some realized after checking out askmrrobot that they were gemming incorrectly for their specs. So far: this has been a success.


Original Post:
My guild is a 1-night a week raiding guild that as long as players meet the ilvl requirements can come to raid. This week, this became a huge problem during Siege, as there were many many mistakes during the course of the raid. I decided to go check out proving grounds - and 1-shot gold on my DK. I didn't feel it was terribly difficult and so I asked my guild members to get gold before coming to next week's Siege.

I figured this would be a simple request. I was not prepared for the hell that broke loose. A couple people got silver and on the same day, when they couldn't get gold, /gquit. I lost a healer and 2 dps. A couple people whispered me and asked advice, and many of them were able to get through gold without problems.

Because I felt that perhaps the tank one was simply easier than the healing or dps ones, I swapped to a shaman I haven't played much in months and gave them a shot on him. I do agree - the healer and DPS ones are harder - however, I got gold on them too.

Right now, out of my guild's ~20 raiders, 9 got gold, 3 gquit, and the other 8 are working on it. 2 of the people working on it are talking about how it's unfair and that I am requiring it. What are your thoughts?

Proof that I have all 3:
http://imgur.com/y0g6wd2

I did the tank one before getting my meta.

It's not a bad idea. Just don't expect to have a great pool of players to pick from since your guild does seem extremely casual and only raids one night a week.

[Amerrol]

Possibly. Uh...over the years...

Ryuujin, Larias, Tankiteasy, Laradrin, Damnstalker, Damnathor. All I can think of off the top of my head.

Nope, nothing. Was probably someone else.

[Mongoose19]

If they are shit why not, way to get rid off the bads.

[Psilo]

I don't reply to these forums often because, well, the return on my investment just isn't worth it, but I have been in similar shoes to the OP's in that I have joined fledgling guilds only to lead their raids to realm first PvE achievements, on accident... on Kil'Jaeden (consistently high performing 25-man PvE and PvP server). So, I have a lot of respect for what OP is doing and I can tell from the detail put into OP's post that they are sincere and responsible.

So:
9 gold
8 working on it
3 /gquit

Based on my experience, this is roughly to be expected. Those that /gquit weren't worth recruiting, so congrats. Half of your raid has hit gold, the other half is "working on it". Those 8 players are the ones that you should focus your time on. If they are underperforming but still putting in the effort (maybe even more effort than the "Gold" members are putting in), then I would recognize that effort, tell them that you appreciate how they are working on becoming better, and - as a sort of motivator without necessarily having any harsh consequences - I would tell them that they "should" be hitting Gold by next lockout. Even if they don't, as long as you have some evidence that they are trying to get better, keep them around. Everybody starts out as a noob, whether it is in WoW or some other game - nobody is born a gamer. It takes time, and WoW is one of the best entry-level-to-become-and-epic-player games around. If they are putting in what time they have to become better, then reward them with a roster slot.

Anyhow, I /salute the OP for putting in the TIME and effort to take people from noobs to experienced gamers. I raise my beer to you.

[deadman1]

The only thing you really learn from challenge modes is how to do the challenge mode, that is what me and a lot of others are trying to say.

[Deleted]

Here's a thought: Do they actually have to get gold. You don't sound super hardcore to me. So why not just let the fact that they tried and actually asked for advice/went to search for strategies be enough?

Kinda like how sometimes college professors give their students a gigantic assignment first week just to weed out those that don't even want to try.

You'll know that your players were motivated enough to try and to seek help to improve themselves and instead of straight up demanding gold right away the week after just make it a process and help them from week to week. I'm pretty certain that those that couldn't get it, now that they have tried, kinda really want to get it eventually?

[Kazlofski]

You know I don't think PG is an adequate gauge of anything, mostly due to the scaling. Some classes are totally screwed (see: Fire Mage, possibly Fury Warriors) and have to switch to subpar specs that worked in 463 gear. Also, speaking as a tank the last two waves of Gold are pretty tough; I believe it took me around 10 tries or so (did a few the first time, took a break, came back and did it finally) to clear it so I certainly would not consider it trivially easy.

I think you were wrong to mandate getting it, because it's not a good indicator of performance or skill as you are getting gimped by the scaling; no legendary cloak, no legendary meta, typically stats dropped to where you ideally would need a totally different set of gear for them (you'd almost have to go back and collect a 463 blue set from heroics and pretend you were back in 5.0.4) but with class abilities that have changed drastically since anyone was at 463 iLevel. Personally I think PG should have been scaled to something more indicative like 496, because when everyone was in 463 gear things played a lot differently.

Did it with Fury 463, wasn't too easy but easy enough so anyone can do it

I actually support that requirement. The minimum of minimum to show you understand the very basics.
Maybe not ask that from everyone but those who don't have any defeated boss achievements.

[Inthislzon]

I probably should be in LFR then. I suck at proving grounds. Can't tank silver, can't heal bronze, can't dps gold. And yet I have done ToT as tank no problem. It's almost, ALMOST, like they don't have any correlation. Who would have thought?

I find hard to belive that someone that can't tank SILVER wasn't carried to 13/13.

Either you don't want silver (but are able to) or you were carried on H:ToT

In all honesty, even NORMAL horridon is "harder" than silver.

On topic: Our guild did the same, but giving a full week advance (so gold by next reset) and was said AFTER our GM had all 3 golds himself. I'm not against it, i'd be doing it anyway for the title, and what i find funny is that the very same people that "can't finish gold" are the ones that held back our progress last tier, so i'm guessing he just wanted to drop them without having to be upfront about it.

[Hyve]

Some other players have said that. I don't really disagree with ya since I have no knowledge, ya know?

I think that when I have a player who comes to me and says "I absolutely cannot do this" I'll address it then. So far, that hasn't happened.

And I think that is fair that you've got an understanding, and if you talk to them about it, you'll soon know if they're just bad at it and lying to you, or they're actually very good at their class, but the proving grounds is just not in their favor.

The Proving Grounds are a nice way to test people, but don't use it as the only measurement of their capability. Actually testing them in a raiding environment is going to be a lot better for a trial.

[deadman1]

Did it with Fury 463, wasn't too easy but easy enough so anyone can do it

I actually support that requirement. The minimum of minimum to show you understand the very basics.
Maybe not ask that from everyone but those who don't have any defeated boss achievements.

Everyone has 463 gear in proving grounds, so I don't know how that matters.

[Sygil]

I don't reply to these forums often because, well, the return on my investment just isn't worth it, but I have been in similar shoes to the OP's in that I have joined fledgling guilds only to lead their raids to realm first PvE achievements, on accident... on Kil'Jaeden (consistently high performing 25-man PvE and PvP server). So, I have a lot of respect for what OP is doing and I can tell from the detail put into OP's post that they are sincere and responsible.

So:
9 gold
8 working on it
3 /gquit

Based on my experience, this is roughly to be expected. Those that /gquit weren't worth recruiting, so congrats. Half of your raid has hit gold, the other half is "working on it". Those 8 players are the ones that you should focus your time on. If they are underperforming but still putting in the effort (maybe even more effort than the "Gold" members are putting in), then I would recognize that effort, tell them that you appreciate how they are working on becoming better, and - as a sort of motivator without necessarily having any harsh consequences - I would tell them that they "should" be hitting Gold by next lockout. Even if they don't, as long as you have some evidence that they are trying to get better, keep them around. Everybody starts out as a noob, whether it is in WoW or some other game - nobody is born a gamer. It takes time, and WoW is one of the best entry-level-to-become-and-epic-player games around. If they are putting in what time they have to become better, then reward them with a roster slot.

Anyhow, I /salute the OP for putting in the TIME and effort to take people from noobs to experienced gamers. I raise my beer to you.

This is probably the best post in this thread.

[ophion1990]

I don't think it's unfair to ask this TBH, even if you are very laid back/casual. It's alot more unfair that people just up and GQuit because of it, if they really didn't want to do it because they "didn't feel like it" or didn't have the time they could have just told you instead of just leaving like that. How long does it even take to clear gold? Not like you're asking them for that much.

[supersnap]

I find it idiotic to the people saying fire mage or destro lock can't do it. Well guess what in a raid setting if fire was complete trash would you still play that spec? probably not. Only people who have a right to complain are shamans and druids since both dps specs require and play completely different.

[Sonrisa]

I find it rather hard to believe your fire mage friend 2-shot it unless he was geared/gemed especifically for it (DMC and Elegon trinkets, non Legendery Meta for example).

[Tankitbetter]

I don't reply to these forums often because, well, the return on my investment just isn't worth it, but I have been in similar shoes to the OP's in that I have joined fledgling guilds only to lead their raids to realm first PvE achievements, on accident... on Kil'Jaeden (consistently high performing 25-man PvE and PvP server). So, I have a lot of respect for what OP is doing and I can tell from the detail put into OP's post that they are sincere and responsible.

So:
9 gold
8 working on it
3 /gquit

Based on my experience, this is roughly to be expected. Those that /gquit weren't worth recruiting, so congrats. Half of your raid has hit gold, the other half is "working on it". Those 8 players are the ones that you should focus your time on. If they are underperforming but still putting in the effort (maybe even more effort than the "Gold" members are putting in), then I would recognize that effort, tell them that you appreciate how they are working on becoming better, and - as a sort of motivator without necessarily having any harsh consequences - I would tell them that they "should" be hitting Gold by next lockout. Even if they don't, as long as you have some evidence that they are trying to get better, keep them around. Everybody starts out as a noob, whether it is in WoW or some other game - nobody is born a gamer. It takes time, and WoW is one of the best entry-level-to-become-and-epic-player games around. If they are putting in what time they have to become better, then reward them with a roster slot.

Anyhow, I /salute the OP for putting in the TIME and effort to take people from noobs to experienced gamers. I raise my beer to you.

Thanks Psilo. I have a hard time putting my thoughts in to text sometimes because I expect people to make the same logical jumps despite not having the same knowledge that I have - like player history and such.

I appreciate it. I really do. I'm really gunning for my players.

And now, I'm off to sleep.

[Racthoh]

i'll be honest. if someone showed me their proving grounds achieve i wouldn't think too much of it. and i would probably think less of the person who thinks it means they can raid. meh.