Is this proof that the Orcs need... (spoilers)

[Maxilian]

Implying progress is always a good thing? I think not, the Orcs have had the entirety of their development since WCIII completely shit on, They've (Players) been forced to fight a War they didn't want, for an Orc who has such hamfisted development that it's almost comical, only to find themselves not leading an organization that they founded, instead finding a race that has relied on them as a crutch, leading the Horde.

Also, the "only a white man should be president." compairson that you, and many others have tried to make is incredibly stupid, don't try to make that argument.

A closer comparison (Not entirely accurate, by any means) would be a hypothetical situation involving an immigrant from the United Kingdom trying to run for PotUS.

Well the horde have always been the orcs and his allies, that's why the warchief have always been an orc, but now that the Horde is not more orcs and their allies, is not more the orchist horde, is the HORDE

[checking facts]

you don't seem to understand, how the orcs as a group onto there own have been diminished because of all this. The orcs identity is the horde, it isn't just the warchief, the orcs are the face of the horde, as humans are the alliance.

well, that's good. try to imagine how players from the other races that actually care about the story used to feel about the "orcs and their sidekicks" horde. it wasn't nice to know that you were from a secondary race.

as an undead player, I feel a troll warchief was the best thing that has ever happened to the horde.

[Maxilian]

well, that's good. try to imagine how players from the other races that actually care about the story used to feel about the "orcs and their sidekicks" horde. it wasn't nice to know that you were from a secondary race.

as an undead player, I feel a troll warchief was the best thing that has ever happened to the horde.

Ohh men, you couldn't have said it better !

[MrHappy]

Troll the master race. /bow before the warchief voodoo man

[Naela]

Except think about the story telling potential the orcs have now for the next few expansions. It's no secret that the orcs have and will always be Blizzard's darling race and you can guarantee that there's going to be some sort of orc development in the works. The orcs have hit their low point in MoP, yes, but this is actually a good thing! They have no where else to go but up and they're primed for a good redemption arc in the Dark Below or whatever the next expansion will be. Look at how boring Alliance storytelling has become lately since asides from a few questionable moments, they've pretty much done no wrong and their story has thus stagnated.

[Trassk]

People seem to always forget the orcs were always about war even before the legion

although pre legion, it was just small wars against themselves, and ogres.

yes, just like dwarves.

I don't see any dwarf persecution though in all this.

[Maxilian]

yes, just like dwarves.

I don't seem any dwarf persecution though in all this.

Trassk got a point there...

[Yba]

They without a doubt need a non-Orc leading them. I know there have been a few great Orcs throughout their history but they've proved as a race as a whole at this point that they're not smart enough to lead themselves in the right direction. I mean, how many times have they dropped the ball? Massacring the Draenei, invading Azeroth, blowing up Draenor, allowing the rise of Garrosh's regime, etc. Yeah, they've screwed up more than enough to prove their incompetence.

The worst part is that they're always quick to point a finger and misdirect the blame. Always the victim, never responsible. It's always the action of the few they say that made the majority go along with all the insanity. All because of Orcs like Nazgrim who would knowingly serve a madman and yet remain loyal all because "Herp derp honor! Cause thinking for myself hurts my head!" Nazgrim, the perfect example of how Orcs are typically as dumb as bricks. But he'll be remembered with reverence. Much like Grom Hellscream, a savage bloodthirsty monster, is hailed as hero after all the atrocities he reveled in committing. After all the darkness he helped bring down on his people. All because at the end of his disgusting life he performed one single act of good that is far over shadowed by the legacy he wrought. Ridiculous.

So yes, it is about time someone else has stepped in to control them. Vol'jin who has always been a wise and sensible leader to his people. Who was brave enough to stand against Garrosh's tyranny. Who embodies the strength of brotherhood that the Horde represents. Perhaps now the green skinned neanderthals can be kept in line and on a path to a better future.

[Anevers]

True, i don't think the trolls are the most populous race of the horde, but i do think that the Orcs are not the most populous race anymore, and if they still are, the difference between them and the others races of the horde is not much

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Not really, in their home world (Draenor), the orcs were not a brutish race of warmangers, they became like that thanks to the demons, is true that they have always been a little more brutish that many other races, but they have also been really tied with nature, so is not true that they can't be anything else

The orcs of Draenor had lived in a noble shamanistic society, roaming in tribes the grasslands of Nagrand on their dusty world of Draenor, for over 5,000 years. They lived in peace with the draenei and were at war with the ogres.
http://wowpedia.org/Orcs#Early_history

They were at war with the Ogre's and I believe it's been mentioned in the lore that the clans often battled each other way before the demons ever showed up. Orc's are a belligerent race, please stop trying to associate shamanism with pacifism.

yes, just like dwarves.

I don't seem any dwarf persecution though in all this.

The Dwarves haven't repeatedly tried to commit genocide either. They haven't ruined a planet yet, they haven't made pact's with demons, or used Old God's artifacts as super weapons.

[Trassk]

The Dwarves haven't repeatedly tried to commit genocide either. They haven't ruined a planet yet, they haven't made pact's with demons, or used Old God's artifacts as super weapons.

maybe because, the world hasn't seen dwarves as monsters and tried to kill them off.

"They haven't made packs with demons" no, just the fucking firelord who could turn the world to cinder.

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And then you say "No thats wrong, because not all dwarves have done that so you can't accuse all dwarves of doing that"

And yet for some reason in your mind, you think all orcs can be generalized into one group of just being green monsters who want to commit genocide against all.

Well theres shit in your coffee, if you can make a generalization of all orcs as such, the same applies to dwarves and there worship of chaos.

[Anevers]

maybe because, the world hasn't seen dwarves as monsters and tried to kill them off.

"They haven't made packs with demons" no, just the fucking firelord who could turn the world to cinder.

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And then you say "No thats wrong, because not all dwarves have done that so you can't accuse all dwarves of doing that"

And yet for some reason in your mind, you think all orcs can be generalized into one group of just being green monsters who want to commit genocide against all.

Well theres shit in your coffee, if you can make a generalization of all orcs as such, the same applies to dwarves and there worship of chaos.

The Dark Irons never made a pact with Rag, they didn't even intend to summon him. He was an accident, Rag then proceeded to enslave the Dark Irons. Please don't confuse entering into a contract with slavery.

[Trassk]

The Dark Irons never made a pact with Rag, they didn't even intend to summon him. He was an accident, Rag then proceeded to enslave the Dark Irons. Please don't confuse entering into a contract with slavery.

And the orcs didn't know they were backing packs with demons, remember, they were manipulated into it.

Yet, unlike the dwarves, who are not firmly planted in the alliance, its always the same 'oh the orcs made packs with demons there sooo bad!'.

[razorfire]

Implying progress is always a good thing? I think not, the Orcs have had the entirety of their development since WCIII completely shit on, They've (Players) been forced to fight a War they didn't want, for an Orc who has such hamfisted development that it's almost comical, only to find themselves not leading an organization that they founded, instead finding a race that has relied on them as a crutch, leading the Horde.

Also, the "only a white man should be president." compairson that you, and many others have tried to make is incredibly stupid, don't try to make that argument.

A closer comparison (Not entirely accurate, by any means) would be a hypothetical situation involving an immigrant from the United Kingdom trying to run for PotUS.

your first and second points I agree with, warcraft 3 story progression for orcs up until wrath had them as, at the very least, trying to get past their time as being little more than slaves to demons and pawns in an attempt to conquer a world. THEY DID NOT WANT WAR. then garrosh shows up and does the classic political trap of speaking about glory and what the orcs deserve and how the only thing holding them back is the alliance, and alongside varian's overaggressive nature he manages to convince the young orcs who don't know any better that the answer to all their problems is fighting (note, I said YOUNG ORCS. you know, those impressionable ones with all the emotional restraint and impulse control of a teenager.) then he furthers this later by A: adding a large force of absolutely fanatical oppressive and xenophobic blackrock orcs to the horde, and B: using them as a secret police force to either weed out naysayers or force them into line. the orcs do not need a non orc leader to prevent them from doing something wrong, they just need a competent one and not to have the closest thing they have to a traditional enemy constantly pressuring them.

the "only a white man should be president" comparison is in fact idiotic, it's comparing real world human culture in which some people have bias against specific ethnicities to a fantasy culture in which a now multi-generational leadership role for one race is being passed to another because the very first person from the orcs that they thought of wasn't sure he was fit to lead the horde after being away for so long. when a leadership position has become engrained into your culture it is a monumental change for it to suddenly be passed to a different group, no matter how close they are. it would be akin to having varian die and instead of anduin getting the throne it goes to muradin. it's not a matter of "well we don't like someone because *insert stupid bias here*" it's "well we're changing something everyone's known for ages because of a decision we're making on the spot".

this one I don't agree on, as others have pointed out yes the warchief title has always been an orc one BUT it is also a standard of each version of the horde, as one of the 3 original new horde races orcs would be much closer to official citizens and, going off the comparison you used, would thus be legally allowed to try for the role. in more game specific phrasing, they're IN the horde, they're not one of the groups no one else in the horde really trusts with something important, and vol'jin has proven his loyalty several times.

going entirely on topic, no it's not proof, no they don't need a non orc leader to be "good" any more than humans need a non human leader to be good or dwarves and nightelves need a non (oh wait, varian's doing that for them, astounding how complaints about that are getting less common in favor of saying orcs are nothing but bloodthirsty monsters that need to be led by the nose.) and the fact blizzard uses them as a fallback group for faction aggression is part of what I see as the biggest failing in WoW storytelling, when the factions have a war all good racial development goes out the window for both groups.

[Anevers]

And the orcs didn't know they were backing packs with demons, remember, they were manipulated into it.

Yet, unlike the dwarves, who are not firmly planted in the alliance, its always the same 'oh the orcs made packs with demons there sooo bad!'.

They didn't know drinking Demonic Blood was bad? Manipulated into Genocide against a peace loving neighbor I can understand. Drinking Demonic Blood? Invading a world and slaughtering its peaceful inhabitants? They knew they had screwed up their own planet, there was cognizance there, they simply decided to take another planet for their own uses its inhabitants be damned.

Again Slavery is not an Alliance. Do not even bother to compare the two, no matter how you stretch it, it simply false. Every chance given the majority of the Orcs have proven they are more than willing to embrace war, genocide and imperialism. No other current race/culture of playable characters (with the exception of the Forsaken, and we know their deal) actively participates in this. Their culture is based around Honor in Battle with a side of Shamanism.

[razorfire]

And the orcs didn't know they were backing packs with demons, remember, they were manipulated into it.

Yet, unlike the dwarves, who are not firmly planted in the alliance, its always the same 'oh the orcs made packs with demons there sooo bad!'.

I've gotta be honest, I agree with trassk here, and on a few other things. quite often when alliance races get manipulated or forced into something (dark iron dwarves, who were already jerks to the rest of the dwarves before hand, getting forced into ragnaros' service. stormwind not paying and then forcing out the stonemasons due to onyxia's manipulation of the stormwind nobles) the playerbase rails against anyone pointing the actions out as wrong or evil, but at the same time whenever the orcs are brought up they're seen as unspeakable monsters that only want war and killing and death when they were tricked and controlled by gul'dan and the burning legion. kil'jaeden made the orc's most trusted shaman ner'zhul think the draenei were planning something terrible, of course they fought. the demon blood was presented as a blessing and gift by gul'dan who by then had taken over and forced the now repentant and disgusted ner'zhul into silence, of course they took it. they were then under the control of the burning legion just about every time the legion chose to actually pay attention to them, and even when they weren't they had little to no self control because their aggression had been pushed to extreme levels by the blood.

after the various ploys were over the orcs who were around during the demon blood ordeal were possibly the most disturbed by their actions of the three races I mentioned, the dark irons didn't seem to care too much since while they were under ragnaros' service they at least got an edge against the blackrock orcs in their constant fighting. the people of stormwind were in various degrees of shock at the treatment of the stonemasons and disgust at the actions of the defias brotherhood in retaliation, heck varian goes into a rage over them. saurfang and other older orcs are fairly repentant and want to avoid fighting....for things they were FORCED to do after being tricked, they let themselves bear the blame for something they did against their will and they are truly sorry for it regardless of why it happened.

[Ultramonkey]

They didn't know drinking Demonic Blood was bad? Manipulated into Genocide against a peace loving neighbor I can understand. Drinking Demonic Blood? Invading a world and slaughtering its peaceful inhabitants? They knew they had screwed up their own planet, there was cognizance there, they simply decided to take another planet for their own uses its inhabitants be damned.

Again Slavery is not an Alliance. Do not even bother to compare the two, no matter how you stretch it, it simply false. Every chance given the majority of the Orcs have proven they are more than willing to embrace war, genocide and imperialism. No other current race/culture of playable characters (with the exception of the Forsaken, and we know their deal) actively participates in this. Their culture is based around Honor in Battle with a side of Shamanism.

Dwarves enslaved by an Elemental Lord = They had no choice!
Orcs manipulated and enslaved by demons and used as a tool for destruction = They knew what they were doing!

The Dwarves intentionally released and tried to control an Elemental Lord to take Ironforge, failed to do so and then were enslaved. They are hardly innocents who simply stumbled upon Ragnaros, they knew what they were doing and fucked up.

[razorfire]

They didn't know drinking Demonic Blood was bad? Manipulated into Genocide against a peace loving neighbor I can understand. Drinking Demonic Blood? Invading a world and slaughtering its peaceful inhabitants? They knew they had screwed up their own planet, there was cognizance there, they simply decided to take another planet for their own uses its inhabitants be damned.

Again Slavery is not an Alliance. Do not even bother to compare the two, no matter how you stretch it, it simply false. Every chance given the majority of the Orcs have proven they are more than willing to embrace war, genocide and imperialism. No other current race/culture of playable characters (with the exception of the Forsaken, and we know their deal) actively participates in this. Their culture is based around Honor in Battle with a side of Shamanism.

oh get over yourself. no, they didn't know drinking the demon blood was bad, when they were shown it it was presented like a means of salvation. the draenei were always distant and mysterious, PEOPLE DON'T TRUST THINGS THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND, it's astoundingly easy to turn people against a neighbor they only rarely talk to when you're telling the closest thing those people have to a leader using his own dead wife's form to trick him that they're planning something. peaceful? don't make me laugh, the humans didn't have very high regard for one another until the alliance of lordaeron was formed because they realized they needed it to keep the old horde from absolutely decimating them. and when your world is falling into such a horrible state that there's very little safe livable land left you take any chance you can to ensure you and your family live.

the orcs didn't have a full alliance with the demons either, the only one who did was gul'dan and he and kil'jaeden were both just having a "bwuahahaha I'm going to betray them later for more power" off at each other. the other orcs were almost entirely under enough of a haze that they wouldn't be able to control themselves for anything short of all the demons dieing. there's a reason they went into a lethargic depression as soon as the second war ended, they stopped being controlled directly outside a few fanatical groups like the burning blade and suddenly their aggression stopped, they had nothing pushing them to fight.

and by the way, their culture is based HEAVILY on shamanism, there's a reason the one person all the orc tribes on draenei listened to was the high shaman.

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Dwarves enslaved by an Elemental Lord = They had no choice!
Orcs manipulated and enslaved by demons and used as a tool for destruction = They knew what they were doing!

The Dwarves intentionally released and tried to control an Elemental Lord to take Ironforge, failed to do so and then were enslaved. They are hardly innocents who simply stumbled upon Ragnaros, they knew what they were doing and fucked up.

agreed, the fact that many of them just went on with their lives instead of even TRYING to do something about ragnaros doesn't seem to say they were too worried about it. on the other hand the orcs who knew about the demon blood were split into 2 groups, the first is gul'dan and the shadow council who abused that for personal power, the second are orcs like doomhammer and durotan who tried to distance themselves as much as they could and were forced into quite a bit of the fighting. (fun fact, the reason doomhammer kept fighting the humans after he killed blackhand was because the war was too far along to just stop. if he stopped the alliance of lordaeron would just come after them in revenge, which they did anyway, and the orcs who were pretty much all under the control of the demon blood still probably wouldn't listen.)

[Anevers]

Dwarves enslaved by an Elemental Lord = They had no choice!
Orcs manipulated and enslaved by demons and used as a tool for destruction = They knew what they were doing!

The Dwarves intentionally released and tried to control an Elemental Lord to take Ironforge, failed to do so and then were enslaved. They are hardly innocents who simply stumbled upon Ragnaros, they knew what they were doing and fucked up.

Never have claimed the Dark Irons as innocents, they were the aggressors in the War of the Three Hammers. You are trying to twist what I wrote (while pulling complete BS out of the air) to make your point. They had no intention to Summon an Elemental Lord, they merely wanted to rebuff the approaching Bronzebeards and Wildhammers, and accidently summoned something they couldn't control. Its like going to the local super market with the intent of shoplifting a candy bar but somehow walking out with a ton of Uranium. When Ragnaros was summoned into this plane of existence he created a huge explosion, that created Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes.

oh get over yourself.

No. You get over yourselves.
It's quite different than drinking Demon Blood with the promise of power, then traveling to another world and committing Genocide knowing what they were doing (Doomhammer knew full well what he was doing). If you all you guys can do is argue against only one of my points, its pretty pathetic, just accept that when it comes to shit done wrong the Dark Irons cannot be compared. Just accept the Orcs are these peace loving hippies you want them to be. Again Shamanism isn't Pacifism, they are a warlike race, who's spiritual needs are handled by Shaman.

[razorfire]

Never have claimed the Dark Irons as innocents, they were the aggressors in the War of the Three Hammers. You are trying to twist what I wrote (while pulling complete BS out of the air) to make your point. They had no intention to Summon an Elemental Lord, they merely wanted to rebuff the approaching Bronzebeards and Wildhammers, and accidently summoned something they couldn't control. Its like going to the local super market with the intent of shoplifting a candy bar but somehow walking out with a ton of Uranium. When Ragnaros was summoned into this plane of existence he created a huge explosion, that created Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes. It's quite different than drinking Demon Blood with the promise of power, then transversing worlds and committing Genocide.

If you all you guys can do is argue against only one of my points its pretty pathetic, just accept that when it comes to shit done wrong the Dark Irons cannot be compared. Just accept the Orcs are these peace loving hippies you want them to be.

you only HAVE one point "orcs are bad cause reasons but these other guys are less bad cause they didn't know everything about what they were doing. I've already posted multiple times the only orcs who knew what the demon blood actually was were either avoiding it or would be lynched by the rest of the orcs if they actually knew. but you keep ignoring that to go back to saying the dark irons were enslaved so they aren't as bad as the orcs who you only seem to view as all being bloodthirsty monsters.

if you can't accept there may be reasons beyond just wanting to fight for one group why do you keep saying another isn't as bad because they had reasons that WERE to fight. "oh hey we started a war completely under our own control, no outside influence, no tricks against us, no strange substance limiting our self control, LET'S USE MAGIC TO STOP LOSING!" versus "our most trusted figure was tricked into seeing a group that we don't fully understand as evil so we fought them, then we got handed something that our SECOND most trusted figure said would assure victory and prosperity against a group we already see as evil, oh hey our world's falling apart while we're still under an outside influence and a chance of our race surviving just opened up, let's go there! *continue on to warcraft 2 where blackhand dies* ...ok killed the warmonger and puppet of the insane power hungry warlock now to stop this wa-oh wait we can't cause they'll just stab us in the back if we turn around and leave now....freaking demon blood"

[Gwiez]

What's wrong with the leader of the Horde not being an orc? The Horde isn't only orcs. The leader of the alliance in classic was a dwarf. Do the trolls always have to have an orc to lead them?