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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I'm not saying Gilian was wrong to quit the group. I just think it's inaccurate to say you're "helping" someone by /leaving immediately after insulting them. If you really want to help you'll offer constructive advice. Calling someone out for being bad and immediately /leaving without even waiting for a response isn't helping anyone. No one needs to be told to enchant their gear, but some players don't do it on principle. You don't have to run with them. Also for all you know they just got the gear and are in the process of enchanting it while spamming for more players in trade.

    TL;DR - If you're not going to help don't help, but don't be insulting and then claim that you were "helping." You weren't.
    Where did I say I was helping or wanted to help him? I just gave the reason why I left and I did it without tact because I don't want to use tact for someone who is not even bothered to be prepared for a group he is making himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    you could have just said, "Oh shit, my Mother called! i need to go, i am SOO sorry, Bye"


    that is tact with out giving anythign away for free.
    So I don't hurt his feelings? Because you hurt someones feelings by saying that he didn't enchant his gear in a videogame and then leave his group? Lol.

  2. #342
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Where did I say I was helping or wanted to help him? I just gave the reason why I left and I did it without tact because I don't want to use tact for someone who is not even bothered to be prepared for a group he is making himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    So I don't hurt his feelings? Because you hurt someones feelings by saying that he didn't enchant his gear in a videogame and then leave his group? Lol.

    so don't complain/gloat/feign self-importance (or what ever it was you were doing posting your screen shot) that you got a rude response to a tactless manouvre on your part.
    .


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  3. #343
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    you were obviously rude first, all you proved in your screen shot is that he was correct in his assessment of your character.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I know exactly what I did. I just don't feel like using "tact" anymore. And even then I wasn't even THAT rude. At least not rude enough to call me a cunt. But I guess you would have called me a cunt also then.
    I would have been gemmed and enchanted, so it would never have come up. That having been said, I'm not excusing his behavior, but he's not on this forum and I don't even know his name, so there's not much I can say to him. I'm just saying that rudeness begets more rudeness. As the old saying goes, "What comes around goes around."

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Look at the screenshot. He was missing everything. Should I carry 10 gems for every class? And when you start a raid group or any group at all you could at least be prepared. He obviously wasn't prepared. How is that tactful?
    Gary Larson was joking when he said that, "Four wrongs squared, minus two wrongs to the fourth power, divided by this formula, do make a right!" No number of wrongs are ever going to make things right. The guy had problematic notions of acceptable raiding etiquette but you didn't help matters either by insulting him and leaving before he could even make things right. If you didn't want to help him that's fine, but you could have picked a tactful way to drop group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Oh shit, you even googled tact for me. How about: go fuck yourself. for tact?
    I was helping you out. The irony of you being offended by that was completely unanticipated but gratifyingly humorous.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post

    I was helping you out. The irony of you being offended by that was completely unanticipated but gratifyingly humorous.
    And then you google tact for me... how about irony.

    Very tactful and not rude at all to tell someone on the internet you don;t know to be tactful. I only posted this screenshot to show how lazy and uninformed players in WoW have become and to point out you can't just jump into a flex raid unprepared like it's LFR. I also thought it was quite funny that he immediately insulted me like that because I only pointed out a flaw and the reason why I left. But keep discussing how tactful I am...
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-09-18 at 07:05 PM.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Where did I say I was helping or wanted to help him?
    This implies that you had attempted to be constructive at some point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I'm not going to be constructive to some random player anymore. Deal with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    So I don't hurt his feelings? Because you hurt someones feelings by saying that he didn't enchant his gear in a videogame and then leave his group? Lol.
    It's not what you said; it's how you said it plus the fact that you didn't even give him a chance to make things right before /leaving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    And then you google tact for me... how about irony.
    I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I'll try to be more considerate from now on.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post


    I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I'll try to be more considerate from now on.
    You think that guy wouldn't react like that if I googled enchants for him?

  8. #348
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    This is why there are requirements. This is why you should inspect people. And this is why Blizzard should not nerf content because of data that shows how often people fail because you end up playing with idiots like this.
    I could be inclined to raid with that person if:
    *Enchants are expensive due to a low faction population and hence ridiculously expensive Enchants on the AH
    *He'd got those three items recently (according to his item tracker on his Armory)
    *Belt Buckles are expensive like above
    *Two of those three missing tinkers are on his new items (that is, Gloves, Waist or Back).

    Nothing can fix the attitude of either of you though.
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  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I just joined some random group from tradechat for a flex raid because I had nothing else to do. I was so bored that I thought I would look the guy up on the armory (the raidleader and tank who invited me) and this is what happened:

    (Nothing happened before that. I only said those two sentences...)

    This is why there are requirements. This is why you should inspect people. And this is why Blizzard should not nerf content because of data that shows how often people fail because you end up playing with idiots like this. Or do we all have to play some piss easy game because some angry teenager doesn't even want to try?
    I know people are giving you grief but I'd go so far as to look up their armory history. If they have a item and it's been more than a week without an enchant they are not getting an invite. Flex is not LFR. If people can't spend 20 minutes putting gems/enchants on gear they should be raiding.

    Why is it up to everyone else to teach people that gems/enchants are standard practice for raiding? If they've raided at all in the last 6 years they know what is expected. If you step up to normal mode you should also be expected to be optimally reforged.

    Granted those 7 enchants and 7 missing sockets won't have a huge effect on DPS, we shouldn't be required to put up with lazy people.

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    actually you can offer advice if you start with a conversation that is not directed toward advising and then eventually circling around to giving the advice in a low pressure manner.
    Yeah, that's fine. By that time you are no longer a complete "stranger."

    You need to say "hello, how do you do, what's the weather like out your way" et cetera before you start in with "So in regard to your lack of gems that's bringing us all down...."

    Basically, people interpret unsolicited advice/criticism from a stranger as an assault, and react in one of three ways:

    (1) Ignore it/take it in silence and hope it goes away (the "mature" response),
    (2) Feel shitty about being berated by a stranger (more of a female response),
    (3) Respond aggressively (typical 18-30 yo male response).

    They never, ever (4) Have an epiphany and feel instant gratitude toward the advice-giver.

    It doesn't matter whether your advice is 100% correct. Not a bit.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Yeah, that's fine. By that time you are no longer a complete "stranger."

    You need to say "hello, how do you do, what's the weather like out your way" et cetera before you start in with "So in regard to your lack of gems that's bringing us all down...."

    Basically, people interpret unsolicited advice/criticism from a stranger as an assault, and react in one of three ways:

    (1) Ignore it/take it in silence and hope it goes away (the "mature" response),
    (2) Feel shitty about being berated by a stranger (more of a female response),
    (3) Respond aggressively (typical 18-30 yo male response).

    They never, ever (4) Have an epiphany and feel instant gratitude toward the advice-giver.

    It doesn't matter whether your advice is 100% correct. Not a bit.
    From my experience (not in recieving, but in seeing just how advice is given out by people), the general way "advice" is given is sort of... wrong.
    It usually goes like this:

    "WHY DON'T YOU HAVE GEMS?" Like... asking a question you know the answer to, in a sort of put-down-y way. 8 times out of 10, it's that. If not that, then outright insults. Very rarely is anyone actually civilized.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    I know people are giving you grief but I'd go so far as to look up their armory history. If they have a item and it's been more than a week without an enchant they are not getting an invite. Flex is not LFR. If people can't spend 20 minutes putting gems/enchants on gear they should be raiding.

    Why is it up to everyone else to teach people that gems/enchants are standard practice for raiding? If they've raided at all in the last 6 years they know what is expected. If you step up to normal mode you should also be expected to be optimally reforged.

    Granted those 7 enchants and 7 missing sockets won't have a huge effect on DPS, we shouldn't be required to put up with lazy people.
    Telling the raid leader he is missing a bunch of enchants and gems is a dick move.

    If you don't want to raid with someone who is missing most of his enchants and gems, that's fine, but just bow out of it. There's no need to, basically, start a fight over something that doesn't matter to either of you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    From my experience (not in recieving, but in seeing just how advice is given out by people), the general way "advice" is given is sort of... wrong.
    It usually goes like this:

    "WHY DON'T YOU HAVE GEMS?" Like... asking a question you know the answer to, in a sort of put-down-y way. 8 times out of 10, it's that. If not that, then outright insults. Very rarely is anyone actually civilized.
    Yes, but the more important point that I am trying to make is that it doesn't matter whether you are rude or polite when offering advice to strangers. People seem to think that when they have progressed beyond "Hey noob no enchants lame" to "/w Noob Do you know you are supposed to enchant your gear before raiding?" that the latter is somehow more proper and likely to be/should be well received.

    It's not, though. Not a bit.

  13. #353
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I have already said that it's highly unlikely that the distribution of millions of players' skill to be below average, which leaves only one conclusion, and that's the one including Osmeric's: Normal is either poorly balanced or poorly named.
    There's another alternative and none of them are mutally exclusive: Raiding generally isn't for the average player. I'm not going to get into the argument about whether or not LFR is or isn't raiding. LFR is really more like a big old Normal 25-man dungeon with long fights than anything else. And I'm OK with that.

    I don't know how many players are either in or looking for guilds that wish to raid. I'm not even sure we can agree on what an 'average' player really is much like we can't agree and never will on a definition for 'casual'.

    Changing subjects slightly: One interesting thing that I'm seeing in some of the comments about people not moving out of things in Flex: Players that are starting to raid in Flex that haven't done a lot of it or only seen raids in LFR need to learn that at first it's OK to stop casting for a couple of GCD's to move. If they don't know, someone should say so. There's a certain amount of worship for DPS to always be casting which at some level is true enough but better to move and let your DPS suffer for a few GCD's than to die. Because of the worship for meters that doesn't always get across. Once they get used to not tunneling and start moving then they can figure out how to use their instants while moving or whatever they have available. It's an important point that people don't learn well. Always be casting leads to tunneling if you're not careful. Staying alive is more important than perfectly executing a priority system. The truly excellent player can do both but that's a really distinct minority compared to all.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    You think that guy wouldn't react like that if I googled enchants for him?
    Maybe he would have and maybe he wouldn't have. I promise not to rage at you if you google enchants for me, though. In all honesty, however, I think I'd be better served with a link to Ask Mr. Robot. If you have better suggestions please wow me (no pun intended).

  15. #355
    Deleted
    Good thing on medium pop server is, you can just look at wowprogress at the guilds and then roughly now what awaits you. That said, I haven't puged anything in t16 yet :P

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Granted those 7 enchants and 7 missing sockets won't have a huge effect on DPS, we shouldn't be required to put up with lazy people.
    When you're playing a MMO you are required to put up with all subscribers regardless of work ethic. You don't have to have them in your guild or even run content with them, but you don't have to act like a complete jerk to them either. This is just as true when using a public pool, visiting a public library, or attending a movie in a crowded theatre in real life. It's a big world and we have to share it with all types.

  17. #357
    Deleted
    I love flex, doing it with socials and alts. Socials are mainly people who quit raiding because of real life stuff. Which means I can still play with them :-)

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    1. if the roster is not online, it is the RL's responsibility to incentivize all raid-team members to attend scheduled raid times if running normal or heroic raids is the agreed goal of the group. It is the guild's responsibility to incentivize the RL to incentivize the roster.
    It really isn't. It's of everyone's interest to show up otherwise things won't get done.
    It is however up to recruitment (RL or Officers) to get players who are reliable to suit the schedule.

    2. the goal of any guild is the perogative of the members of that guild. if running with friends with more important than accomplishing normal mode, they use flex. if accomplishing normal mode is more important than runnign with friends, they sit people. all choices entail opportunity costs.
    This is why it sounds like I'm dismissing arguments. Because there's a leap of logic after that inserted comma.
    If playing with friends is more important than accomplishing something then all that means is you aren't going to substitute them.
    Believe it or not, guilds have done this in the past but still played in Normal.
    3. Argument ad absurdem/strawmanning is an invalid rhtorical strategy.
    You're right but who decides what is "absurd?"
    When LFR was released you might say that the idea of a 4th difficulty was a "strawman."

    Come@me.

  19. #359
    To me wiping in flex is not a big deal. It's the same as wiping with my guild on hc. People suck, just on different levels.

  20. #360
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mmowin View Post
    You find out that LFR is actually x10 better than queing Flex with players from your own server.
    Haha.
    People who wants vanilla back should read your comments it was so true back then and it was for normal dunjeon.

    Hahaha.

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