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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And how far does your 'hardcore raiding experience' stretch?
    Why wouldn't I know what I am talking about?
    You say 40 mans like that's what I was even talking about. Then you say attacks hardly hurt people. So excuse me for thinking your not sure what your saying. I don't think you remember what peoples health bars did during those raids.

    People sure seem to blow through these heroic raids a lot faster than they used to clear normal ones. Weird for content that's apparently much harder.
    Last edited by Dormie; 2013-09-20 at 01:08 AM.

  2. #142
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Today people want to reach the level cap as fast as possible avoiding all contact with other people while using tools like LFD. The problem is not in the tools and it's not Blizzard's fault nor anything they changed in the game, it's the people.
    By simply creating the tool and having it there its just common sense to use it. Its like telling someone to open a can of beans and you give them 2 options: Use this spoon for hard mode or use this katana crafted by a monk on the top of mount Fuji. This is Inductive Design and is only normal and common sense for someone to use it. And that's why the world is empty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The iLVL-difference between LFR and Heroic is gigantic.
    The amount of dps that well equipped-players can push out is just amazing compared to my crappy LFR-gear.
    Call me stupid if you want on this one but its just my opinion...I just think stats and stuff like DPS improve is boring. I always think different and unique looks better than that. And what am I going to DPS when I have my full heroic gear? All you are supposed to do when you reach that goal is just idle in the middle of your main city to show off...the same gear everyone have with some stupid different color ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Can you explain how the following things are 'extinct':
    -Social experience
    -Leveling
    -Reputation farm zones

    And please, try to make clear what the hell these 'world events' are.
    Yeah, for about a week and then everyone has them.
    Or you make it longer and people complain that they are 'forced' to do all that stuff.
    Since there is no more world roaming because of LFG/ no sum stones/ flying mount to the actual raid entrance, a huge interaction in the world is lost. No more random attacks from the opposite faction or even meeting people on the street on their way for the raid/ instance and consequently watching low levels doing quests. Now its all Matrix instancedcraft, here meet these people from other servers doing the same dungeon you are doing. Hi and bye folks have a nice day.

    I mean social stuff like Terokar Forest (triple or quadra instance meeting stone always full of pvp), skettis to farm rep to have those weird looking mounts and the 2% drop chance trinket from the last boss for arakkoa transformation.
    Help get the Towers from Hellfire Peninsula so your faction low levels received more xp while you were waiting for your group for Rampards.
    Zones full of life life like Nagrand, in the arena near the pvp sets vendor. The crazy group quest of Ring of Blood with those blue rewards for startup heroic instance gear. Halaa battles just to get those cool looking ground mounts (hype at the moment).
    This is F'in genius game design man xD

    I was so desperate for this "sandbox" aka "real fantasy life simulator" kind of feeling that my routine in Cataclysm consisted in pulling and bugging Mok'morokk daily to Orgrimmar; PVP in Stormwind, Goldshire, Mage Tower; still going to Gurubashi Arena for my Battlemaster pvp title; organizing weekly raids to Orgrimmar and farming very rare cosmetic stuff like thunderfury, the fist weapon from Azuregos (world boss no longer exists) and Raven Lord mount. I was still living WoW without any kind of raiding or "content". Just living the "social experience" and interacting with the community.
    Last edited by mmocaf0660f03c; 2013-09-20 at 02:08 AM.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    People sure seem to blow through these heroic raids a lot faster than they used to clear normal ones. Weird for content that's apparently much harder.
    These people who "blow through" these heroic raids practice these raids for months on the PTR so it's kind of expected.
    Would you rather have bug-free raid that is completed quickly by the top of the top raiders or have a raid such as AQ-40 where the last boss was bugged for the longest time?
    Goodbye-Forever-MMO-Champ
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Alleria's whispers start climaxing

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    These people who "blow through" these heroic raids practice these raids for months on the PTR so it's kind of expected.
    Would you rather have bug-free raid that is completed quickly by the top of the top raiders or have a raid such as AQ-40 where the last boss was bugged for the longest time?
    Again, picking extreme situations to try to prove a point.

  5. #145
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Because bosses weren't hard in Vanilla, they just had a lot of health and you did little damage. I hope you enjoy going OOM and wanding your way to victory...

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Again, picking extreme situations to try to prove a point.
    No, I'm picking situations that has been happening over the years.
    Sinestra was never tested on the PTR and it was completely covered with bugs at the start.
    Then there's also the fact that Blizzard are more quick to putting out hot-fixes now then they were in Vanilla. Once C'thun was fixed it was killed very soon after.
    Goodbye-Forever-MMO-Champ
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Alleria's whispers start climaxing

  7. #147
    The Lightbringer serenka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    Because bosses weren't hard in Vanilla, they just had a lot of health and you did little damage. I hope you enjoy going OOM and wanding your way to victory...

    Yeah, people are confusing shitty mechanics and an very very unbalanced game with it being hard. It wasn't hard in terms of skill, the mechanics were not hard unless they were bugged, player damage was a lot lower than what it is now relative to boss health, but mechanics and actual skill required for heroic raids is much more than it took to do a raidat60.
    Gotta remember back at 60 a lot of people didn't even key bind more than a few abilities, the skill level of the players has gone up along with skill required.

    Also we're seeing the same thing here we see with every thread about vanilla/tbc, every time someone disagrees with their poor t they dismiss them as never having played the game
    dragonmaw - EU

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    Because 'One Difficulty To Rule Them All' will not work. Cataclysm proved funneling everyone into a single game mode and level of difficulty was not going to work anymore. They tried to expand game modes, now they're trying to expand difficulty levels by appealing to the 'random queue and go' crowd as well as the 'organize and go' crowd.

    They're also trying to integrate the new-fangled idea of open-participation world events to their game. WoW is doing its best to catch up and keep as many types of players engaged in a market that is growing more diverse, especially as the number of buy-to-play/micro-transaction games goes higher and higher. For a game this old still running on a sub-based model to have so many players is nothing short of amazing.
    All Cata proved was that you cant take the spoon-fed, dunce cap wearing "lawlipullthewholeheroicatatime" window licking, crayon eating, likely paint sniffing idiots Blizz created in Wrath and toss them into TBC level difficulty content, then feign shock when their pet nublets wipe on anything that requires more then 2 buttons and has more then 1 mechanic, need proof? See: Blackrock Caverns, subsection: Corla the lfg Breaker

  9. #149
    Stood in the Fire KBWarriors's Avatar
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    *sigh* I came to this thread and as expected, saw the first few people saying
    "oh, well they made Cataclysm hard and people left."

    No... Cataclysm was piss poorly designed in terms of end-game and left many players just running around Orgrimmar. Heroics weren't hard in the slightest if you knew where your Crowd Control button on your action bars or keybinds were.

    People who say they lost a bunch of people because of "OMG CATA HARD" are like the people who say "I'm never coming back to Walmart again, this customer service is awful!" They were nothing more than idle threats and there were other games coming out at the time. People got bored with Cataclysm early, it had nothing to do with "hard heroics".

    If people sincerely thought those heroics were hard, then I sincerely hope in the future Proving Grounds Gold is required to do raids/heroics so that people are proven to at least be competent with their class.

  10. #150
    Deleted
    Please explain me how Immerseus or morchok are harder than any Vanilla boss (and I mean ANY vanilla boss).

    Hint : they are not.

  11. #151
    Herald of the Titans Ihnasir's Avatar
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    Because the game's moved away from it, and if they moved towards a more "grindy" design, they'd hemorrhage customers even more than they already are.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by FemaleGoblinMage View Post
    The game is losing popularity anyway, why don't they return it to something like "Algalon being hard for the whole of the expansion", no nerfs at all? I know, WoW vanilla wasn't technically "hard", but why not anyway?
    If I understand the question correctly, you're asking why for example ToT gets nerfed into the ground the moment SoO is released.

    I kinda agree with that sentiment, now. Instead of nerfing ToT 20%, with Flex raids now and valor upgrades, there doesn't seem to be a need for this anymore. Let players get some flex gear, upgrade it, and ToT would be doable.

    Nerfing raids when a new tier releases was always a kludgey solution to a boneheaded problem: raids being inaccessible. Flex is a better solution. Nerfing tiers has outlived its necessity.

    There was a certain inexplicable cool factor about a boss not changing for an entire expansion. There was something cool about the Illidan we killed for the nth time for glaives well after Sunwell was the SAME Illidan we killed the very first time. It's just a kinda feeling thing.

    Again I absolutely do not want to deprive guilds of the ability to go back and finish a raid when a new tier is released. I just don't think nerfing it is the answer anymore. Flex raids (with their higher ilvl) and valor upgrades are the answer.

    EDIT- This would work out even better in the next expansion, when Flex raids for each tier is a given. Consider this scenario: Guild A is an average guild that wasn't very successful in MoP Normals. In the next expansion, they start off doing Flex each tier, then move up to try out some fights on Normal when they have Flex on farm and are geared up from that difficulty. They beat 5/12 bosses on Normal. Now the next tier comes out, and unlike MoP the previous tier does not get nerfed. Again they start on Flexible, and with some new tier Flex gear they are able to go back and beat those remaining bosses on Normal, with it still remaining a decent challenge for the guild. Nothing gets cheapened in the process.

    Basically, Flex -> Normal could in the future become a progression path for average guilds that parallels Normal -> Heroic for above average guilds. In any case it will always better if players can overcome previously unbeatable content by eventually outgearing it rather than seeing things get flat nerfs.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-09-20 at 03:01 AM.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by KBWarriors View Post
    *sigh* I came to this thread and as expected, saw the first few people saying
    "oh, well they made Cataclysm hard and people left."

    No... Cataclysm was piss poorly designed in terms of end-game and left many players just running around Orgrimmar. Heroics weren't hard in the slightest if you knew where your Crowd Control button on your action bars or keybinds were.

    People who say they lost a bunch of people because of "OMG CATA HARD" are like the people who say "I'm never coming back to Walmart again, this customer service is awful!" They were nothing more than idle threats and there were other games coming out at the time. People got bored with Cataclysm early, it had nothing to do with "hard heroics".

    If people sincerely thought those heroics were hard, then I sincerely hope in the future Proving Grounds Gold is required to do raids/heroics so that people are proven to at least be competent with their class.
    I can't speak about other battle groups, but I can speak about mine. Heroics were great for guilds groups. However LFD groups were a different story. Part of the problem was all of the changes made to healing and tanking, a lot of people were sucking. Also part of the problem was CC which people weren't used to having to use, and very often the group you got didn't have the CC you needed. Que times were up for DPS because the healing/tanking changes had fewer people tanking/healing. DPS getting kicked after a long ass queue because they didn't have the right CC(before the first pull was even made) was not unheard of, while it wasn't exactly common it was far from rare. So let's just DPS people were a little cranky from the get go, and after spending a long ass time just getting in weren't really ready to deal with a tank or healer that didn't know what the hell they were doing.(which should have been somewhat understandable considering all the changes made) What you ended up getting was a whole lot of rage, a whole lot of swearing, and a whole lot of kicking.

    I don't think what made people quit was the difficulty per se. It was the effect it had on the community for one. The rage on my server overflowed into trade and general chat. Some people just stopped doing heroics because they didn't want to deal with all the bad attitudes common in LFD. I stopped doing them outside of guild groups. What that led to was people having nothing to do, and people left because of boredom. Things did get better as people geared up, but when ZA/ZG came out it just started all over again.

    While difficulty wasn't the direct cause, the difficulty created a lot of the problems that caused people to quit.

  14. #154
    Because they would likely lose even more subscribers. The game has grown because of how accessible it is, taking that away wouldn't help.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillah View Post
    Because they would likely lose even more subscribers. The game has grown because of how accessible it is, taking that away wouldn't help.
    Lol what? They may lose some but they may gain some.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Lol what? They may lose some but they may gain some.
    Who would they gain? There are three people that leave the game on average.

    Those that find the game too hard, so they leave (this happened a lot in Cata), those that find it overly time consuming, and leave (this is the majority of MoP), and those that are just sick of the game in general, as it's been going on ten years old (this is the majority in general). The vast majority of people don't leave the game because it's "not hard enough", since that demographic of player was rare to begin with.

    So how did WoW become popular in the first place? Two reasons.

    1) It was based on the very popular WarCraft brand, coming off the heavy success of WC3 and it's expansion, TFT.
    2) It was 500% easier to play and get into then the largest competition of the time. Ask a EverQuest player what they think about mounts, rested experience, no death penalty, no experience loss, questing focus, etc...

    In the end, nothing will bring it back to the numbers it once had. That time has sailed and not enough new blood is going to be interested in playing over the old blood that is simply tired of playing the same game for years on end. Easy, Hard, it won't matter. This does not mean WoW is "dying" but that just making content harder is not going to make people flock back in droves, in fact it will do the opposite of by driving away those that are hold on in the middle ground.

  17. #157
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    Heroic raids are hard. If you mean 5 mans, then I'd have to say no. With the random ques I'd rather have a 10 minute faceroll run than an hour long wipe fest.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Lol what? They may lose some but they may gain some.
    Yeah a few maybe. You underestimate how casual this game is, overall. Note how much QQ there is already about the Shaohao rep and it's been out for a week. People don't have the time/don't want to farm for that rep, they want it to be easy.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Who would they gain? There are three people that leave the game on average.

    Those that find the game too hard, so they leave (this happened a lot in Cata), those that find it overly time consuming, and leave (this is the majority of MoP), and those that are just sick of the game in general, as it's been going on ten years old (this is the majority in general). The vast majority of people don't leave the game because it's "not hard enough", since that demographic of player was rare to begin with.

    So how did WoW become popular in the first place? Two reasons.

    1) It was based on the very popular WarCraft brand, coming off the heavy success of WC3 and it's expansion, TFT.
    2) It was 500% easier to play and get into then the largest competition of the time. Ask a EverQuest player what they think about mounts, rested experience, no death penalty, no experience loss, questing focus, etc...

    In the end, nothing will bring it back to the numbers it once had. That time has sailed and not enough new blood is going to be interested in playing over the old blood that is simply tired of playing the same game for years on end. Easy, Hard, it won't matter. This does not mean WoW is "dying" but that just making content harder is not going to make people flock back in droves, in fact it will do the opposite of by driving away those that are hold on in the middle ground.
    You say that, but making the game easier doesn't seem to be working. You say who would they gain? How about the people now playing classic/BC servers because they dislike what Blizzard has done to the game. It would bring back the people that left once the game became a big facerolling gimmick.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nillah View Post
    Yeah a few maybe. You underestimate how casual this game is, overall. Note how much QQ there is already about the Shaohao rep and it's been out for a week. People don't have the time/don't want to farm for that rep, they want it to be easy.
    Why? You'd rather a mindless zerg than trying to actually play?
    Here lies the problem with the game.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Why? You'd rather a mindless zerg than trying to actually play?
    Here lies the problem with the game.
    He described what would happen. You then turned it into a conversation about what he wants.

    Do you think he should change his prediction of what will happen just based on what he wants to have happen?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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