Any hope for MM this patch?

[abyssalsoldier]

I've wanted to play MM for some time now and it always seems like it's such a large dps gap that it's not worth it. I'm having trouble finding info about this patch. Any one have some useful info?

[jinsu]

there is no "info" other than the patch notes, it got buffed like the other specs did and it still the worst of the 3 specs in terms of raw dps. If you enjoy MM then by all means play it. None of the theorycrafters are going to spend any time with it so there really isn't anything new to say. Only thing I can offer is that apparently you can use aimed shot as a focus dump over arcane if you can get it to 1.4 cast time.

[ATron52]

The gap is smaller than the previous patches on single target fights. Sims work it out to be a 3% or so decrease in BiS gear, but sims don't showcase real-world scenarios - your mileage may vary. In my current gear (523), FemaleDwarf gives my haste specced MM spec nearly identical DPS to a haste specced BM spec - .06% behind. While that sounds great on paper, it's doubtful I'd see those exact results in practice.

For encounters with a lot of AoE or Cleave, Bombardment (MM ability that lets your next multi-shot hit harder and cost less focus after you get a multi-shot crit) isn't very competitive with BM and SV. Taking Thrill of the Hunt instead of Dire Beast and Barrage instead of Glaive Toss can really boost AoE DPS, but BM and SV can see similar results doing the same, keeping us behind.

I would, however, like to see a full mastery MM build specifically for encounters with tons and tons of AoE. Wild Quiver works very well with Multi-Shot, and during Bombardment / Thrill of the Hunt, we can spam it for ages. If you want to see DPS scumbagging as MM, head to Primordius on LFR and take TotH and Barrage. Pray you get some mastery buffs from the bloods and go to town AoEing everything in sight.

With all of that said, MM is fine for normals, LFR, and Flex. If you want to go into heroics, you'll be better off sticking with BM / SV. Especially since the T16 Bonuses are lackluster at best for MM. The 2pc falls behind because after the Aimed buff, it's entirely viable to drop arcane completely as MM and only hardcast Aimed as your focus dump. With Aimed and Arcane give the same CD reduction on Rapid Fire per cast, it's loses value. The 4pc just wasn't designed well, IMO. Master Marksman procs 50% of the time from a steady cast. On average we'll get an instant Aimed every 6 steady shots (approx. every 20 seconds), giving us a 1/2 cast Aimed every 20 seconds, give or take. Lame. I haven't looked it up, but I guess it may be in the realm of possibility that our BiS *could* forgo the 4pc set bonus completely and stick with off set pieces

[Nakauri]

Probably not.

I used Marksmanship for progression in all of ToT 25 heroics, but when the hunter changes went in mid June the spec was toast and never recovered. In the face of beast cleave and the amplification trinket affecting bestial wrath, MM is going to have one hell of a time being justified in SoO.

Theoretically in single target sims all three of the specs are within 5% of each other. I'm pretty confident in my MM abilities to play it on a high level in a single target fight, but I wouldn't give up beast cleave easily in multitarget fights.

Once I pick up a new weapon I'll probably be replacing survival with MM to test all the specs out before the end of the week, similarly to what I did for ToT.
I tend to write about my raiding experience, particularly as marksman (or as attempted as marksman), so you might be interested in checking that out some time. I don't post here a lot though so I can't give you a link. Just google for Jade's Forest.

What the guy said above is pretty much right, though. Marksman is pretty clunky and a lot of the game style / itemization negatively drains its effectiveness, whereas specs like beast mastery has all its parts working in synergy. You can choose to use your uptime on bestial wrath to bring AoE PAIN or to use that uptime to bring massive single target burst. It's really the best of both worlds right now.
You could probably justify marksman on something like malkorok, though.

[Bullettime]

MM can hold its own with Beast on a single target shootout like Malkorak but given the fight design in the rest of the instance, it's not really worth dropping a spec for it.

[ATron52]

Something interesting I just spent a little while simming: The 4pc bonus (in BiS - didn't check other gear levels) for a hardcast aimed haste build is indeed lackluster. I'm seeing results making 4pc VERY similar to 2pc + heroic warforged offset (actually leaning a little towards the offset but it's a tiny, tiny difference). Part of me thinks that this should be raised as an issue on the Blizz forums, but MM is already so far behind in realistic encounters that I can't imagine anything being taken seriously nonetheless changed about the 4pc. An easy fix would be to change the 4pc to something like: "Your instant Aimed Shots decrease the cast time of Aimed Shot for 5 seconds."

Since it wouldn't reduce focus cost, we'd still have to use Steady Shot between them meaning that you wouldn't be able to spam Aimed. Realistically, I can imagine that in a best case scenario where you have 100 focus when it procs and you're specced into Fervor for a free focus refill, you might be able to get 4 half cast time Aimed during that burst. In practice it will only be 2-3 most likely - enough to make our set bonus more valuable than offset pieces.

But, that's all in full BiS which isn't going to happen for the overwhelming majority of players. Results will be different in the LFR / Flex / Normal range.

[Tehterokkar]

They will not touch Marksmanship because the entire spec is broken. Simply increasing damage isn't a fix. A Fix is to do /delete on Aimed Shot(at least cast time part) and Serpent Sting for the spec.

Aimed shot is way too clunky to be used, 50 focus, that's half of your focus and a long cast time.

Serpent Sting really servers NO PURPOSE for the spec either, it's very difficult to keep up when there's target switching because you have to use Chimera on the target you want to keep the SrS up otherwise you have to re-apply it.


TL;DR: Broken spec is Broken. Wait for 6.0(jk lol)

[ATron52]

Yeah, I agree that there are many aspects that could be changed about Marks. I'm stubborn though, and it's far and above my favorite spec - I'm gonna keep doing the best I can with it. I'm not going to go into detail with what I like and don't like about the spec since that's not what this thread is really about, and I've done so within the past few weeks in a number of "how to redesign MM" threads.

However, I will say that I really enjoy the (now previous) dynamic of switching focus dumps mid combat: Aimed above 80% and while hasted and Arcane the rest of the time. It requires makes you pay attention a bit more and know when to switch. The current 5.4 system of remove Arcane from the bar and deal use Aimed does make me a little sad since they've removed some of the complexity of the spec. I definitely wouldn't mind a hotfix to let auto shot continue firing while casting Aimed. Wouldn't mind that at all...

C'est la vie. As you said, we can hope for 6.0!

[Nakauri]

Something interesting I just spent a little while simming: The 4pc bonus (in BiS - didn't check other gear levels) for a hardcast aimed haste build is indeed lackluster. I'm seeing results making 4pc VERY similar to 2pc + heroic warforged offset (actually leaning a little towards the offset but it's a tiny, tiny difference). Part of me thinks that this should be raised as an issue on the Blizz forums, but MM is already so far behind in realistic encounters that I can't imagine anything being taken seriously nonetheless changed about the 4pc. An easy fix would be to change the 4pc to something like: "Your instant Aimed Shots decrease the cast time of Aimed Shot for 5 seconds."

Believe me, I tried like hell on the PTR to get them to look at the Marksman 4pc. The initial form of the tier bonuses made the 4pc literally have absolutely no effect whatsoever because the 2pc reduced the cooldown on rapid fire by 15 seconds and aimed shot was not included in the shots that reduced it. In essence, the 4pc was reducing a constantly RF'd aimed shot of 0.8s down to 0.7s (inside of the global to within inside of the global), but you wouldn't want to use Aimed ever even when inside of the GCD because its intrinsic GCD value was less than [instant arcane+RF reduction]. When they dropped the 2pc down to 4s and added aimed to it, they felt they had "fixed" the 4pc well enough to go in as it was.

I made quite a few posts on it at the time, but the main one was probably this last one: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...83?page=25#490
It's a giant block of novel-text, though, so to cut out the part relevant about MM's tier bonuses.... [and for those who do decide to read it, note that I still considered SV as an 'aoe suppression' spec similar to how it was in ToT].

3 - How I feel about the tier bonuses and its correlation with progression / specializations

I also spent a great deal of my time evaluating the set bonuses and doing test dummy turret tests to evaluate the impact of these (outside of and as compliment to the theorycrafting everyone else was and continues to do). When I originally read the set bonuses before the PTR, I was sceptical and interested in how this would affect our game play choices. I hissed through my teeth when I read the Marksman one and instantly told the person who had linked me the item, "This is either going to be really good in a way I haven't thought of or absolutely, absolutely terrible and I'm really, really confused right now."

If you've read any of my other posts, you know I've been extremely disappointed with the tier bonuses and advocating large changes to the Marksman 4PC. The change to include Aimed into 2PC was required, not to balance it for Marksman vs BM and SV, but because the global-worth of Aimed was reduced to nil in the face of arcanes over double worth as a result. That alone is not enough and I swear on Odins Hammer you'll understand and agree after.

My initial tests with the tier bonuses was when 2PC reduced Rapid Fire for Marksman by 15, 12 for SV and 10 for BM. All we did was slam our face on arcane shot and I'm happy this has been changed. Keep in mind that even then, people were underwhelmed by the 2PC. Now that arcane shot has been nerfed from its previous position and the 2PC reduced to 4 across the board it's a very, very weak bonus. Which is unfortunate given how strong 4PC is for BM and SV. The Protector token has a lot of bodies on it, particularly because of Monk: my raid has 4 of those, and we're currently deciding between 2 or 3 hunters for SoO. Very hesitant on the 3 for this point alone. If 2PC is weak, we will not be prioritized for the first pieces of tier, which delays our very important 4PC. Standard deviation domino effect therein. 2PC needs to offer us enough to be competitive with the other classes on the protector tokens for loot priority.

4PC is cool. The theory behind them and how they were supposed to affect our game play is neat. I really like BM's and I think it complements the spec very well, even if it has been simplified since its original form to smooth out some complexity and weaknesses. I hate SV's for the fact that it turns it into a Frost DK, but I do recognize how well it solves the signature shot problem. It dials the single target up too much and this needs to be re-evaluated, and I also think it needs something added to reflect the SV AoE niche. Marksman .... Let's talk about that.

Scrap it. Seriously, at this point, just scrap that Marksman 4pc. It was an interesting choice based on the choices MM playstyle makes - we are constantly trying to lower the Aimed shot cast bar in order to use it over arcane. This 4PC is NOT the solution. It does NOT give us that. It just ruins everything, so scrap it. There is no angle I can come into this 4PC and think it is a good idea. Even after the arcane and aimed shot adjustment, the addition of aimed to 2pc to unpenalize how horribly the two bonuses initially synergized -- it's just not enough. It is over complicating the rotation, punishing the player for trying to play appropriately and the throughput benefit is not enough to warrant the behaviour. This is Cataclysm warlock syndrome. The 0.2% will disappear.

Arcane vs Aimed --> Arcane is at an inherent advantage being the simplier of the abilities. In Firelands, Aimed was cast at 1.8s for a massive damage increase over Arcane. It was made challenging by the increased focus cost and requirement to both stutter step and time correctly (so you weren't moving when you cast it). All of ToT, people have been trying to cast it at 1.3s when it has not been an increase unless hasted down to the global 1.0 and even then was not worth casting unless also under a crit buff (agi procs or CA). This required more management from the hunter and if you've ever seen my UI you'll see the haste, crit and mastery tracker auras dead in the middle of my ability trackers. It was required. Using Aimed has not been worth it if it was both (A) below the GCD and equal to arcane thus, (B) going to crit. It suffers from two major caveats:
1 - tBC Beast Master hunter syndrome. Remember that? tBC BM was the only class in the game, ever, who would significantly hamper its DPS by using its ability. Most hunters used a macro to do their rotation for them because otherwise they needed trackers to weave autoshot and steady shot. Aimed shot suffers the same issue, but is less recognized because it is not cast as often.
2 - Focus regeneration and use. Arcane shot uses its focus immediately, while Aimed shot does not use its focus until the cast has finished. In addition, its focus cost is a lot higher, meaning the delayed focus use is more threatening than arcane shot.

The current 4PC does not compliment this. The instant Aimed! proc is received RNG off of steady shots, which funnel focus. Under normal rotation without rapid fire, if a MM hunter gets an Aimed! proc after using 3 steady shots after a Chimera, they are in serious hot water. You need another 50 focus after that to even use the proc. Which can proc again. All while rapid fire is coming up and being reduced by 2PC. Whereby the 4PC then becomes useless, because it provides zero benefit under rapid fire (besides getting the aimed off inside of a global and being ever so slightly closer to arcanes instant focus drop).
The 4PC just horribly complicates focus management and arcane vs aimed management. The difference between arcane and aimed, even after the changes, is not enough to make up for the complications that arise trying to use the 4PC. I have a 5 minute turret test on my archive called "direbeast aimed Marksman" and "TotH arcane Marksman" where I compared the effectiveness of using an Aimed rotation / the 4PC and completely ignoring it in favour of arcane. After adjusting for a 32% crit rate on steady/aimed, the arcane spam was 800 DPS more (basically the same, proc variable, length, etc) and far simpler to do. It would be the less impacted by encounter mechanics. It would benefit the most from procs (less steadys).
It is not just "arcane vs aimed" - moreso, it is "[steady+arcane] + autoshot" vs "[steady+steady+aimed] - autoshot." The GCD global cost for aimed is higher, the threats are larger, the throughput generated does not provide enough benefit for the convolution.

Conclusion: 2PC needs to be worth more. This doesn't have to come as a change to 2PC. This can come as a change to Rapid Fire.
4PC BM is really cool. I like it and it compliments the BM niche. There's something I want to do in order to give BM the nudge I think it needs, and while it would sort of affect the 4PC, it's not inherent in the 4PC.
4PC SV is really frustrating. It tries to benefit the SV single target damage and I don't feel that SV should get such a boost to its single target. It's already really good at AoE and is the king standard deviation in simplicity. Without stutter stepping and trap/BA swapping for proc fishing, its neutered. Really frustrated with SV. Don't think 4PC compliments it.
4PC MM is a disaster. Every part of the MM play style doesn't compliment itself, which slowly leeches its effectiveness in the face of better designing in BM and MM. The 4PC is just lemon in the wound.

In any case, here are some things to try if anyone is ever simming MM again:
1. Like BM and SV, at higher ilevels try swapping out Glaive Toss for Powershot.
2. Crit and haste are nearly identical for BM, swapping back and forth between importance, but for MM haste should generally remain slightly ahead of crit (most likely).
3. Don't use chimera, sting or arcane in CA. Test between with / without glaive toss [if it's in].
4. Test manual cast/instant aimeds between 1.3s and 1.6s / permanent hardcast.
5. Use AoC/Haromm

With the FD sims I can generally keep MM within 8-10k of the public BM parses, so in an actual encounter where you can make more concrete decisions might tip the scales in favour of either. On top of that, depending on what gear you've picked up so far will change how good either spec is. IE, having AoC makes BM amazing - but maybe you got a haromms and a warforged bow instead. It's hard to say without having gotten a chance to test it yet.

[ATron52]

@ Nakauri - I salute you, sir or madam. Your point make total sense and they're all issues that *COULD* have been solved via the PTR. Oh well, I suppose. I've had to put my hunter on the back burner for the past few months since my guild lost a tank, but I still love hunters. He is and will forever be my "main" and I will always mainspec MM...At least until they make it the pure PvP spec.

[Libertarian]

As I will continue to say, even if all three specs are exactly the same dps, marks will still be the worst.

[Deleted]

The BiS Sims show MM at 13th Place, out of 26 in in "maximum DPS" and 8th place in "realistic" DPS.
Both are above average which should be alright in a fair Environment in my Opinion.

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/maximum#BiS

Maybe some cry "there is no hope" because MM isn't Number one, but not every DPS Spec out of the 26 can be number one.

Those charts are even worst than pure SimC data. Seeing shadow and arms last makes me laugh, because they are bound to be top5 dps on at least 8 of the 14 bosses. Kinda fun that they just put some movement and downtime and call that "realistic". Realistic is Multidot, AoE and cleave. There are 3 ST bosses this tier. realistic is that you can problably keep up as MM in Iron Juggernaut, realistic is that you will be the fighting for the 13-16th dps # on almost any other fight as MM.

[Acidd06]

its sad how it wasn't very close to the other two specs this entire expansion Ive been wanting to play it for quite some time now too

[Bullettime]

its sad how it wasn't very close to the other two specs this entire expansion Ive been wanting to play it for quite some time now too

Marks has been able to keep up in single target damage all expansion.

The problem is that it has nothing else going for it. No AoE, no cleave, no multidot, less burst than BM, loses a glyph so it can use its optimal cycle while mobile. Marks would do fine on a fight like Malkorak but the second you start adding in adds, the others take over. Sha would be a great example of this. Marks would do well until the adds spawn, then Surv and Beast jump ahead of it.

[Deleted]

Im playing mm on all singletarget bosses and im always on top of my whole 25 man raid. perhaps also because im the best geared char in my guild atm but i think single target its pretty good

[Darkfriend]

The BiS Sims show MM at 13th Place, out of 26 in in "maximum DPS" and 8th place in "realistic" DPS.
Both are above average which should be alright in a fair Environment in my Opinion.

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/maximum#BiS

Maybe some cry "there is no hope" because MM isn't Number one, but not every DPS Spec out of the 26 can be number one.

Noxxic lol. That site is terrible.

[Hayro1]

Marks has been able to keep up in single target damage all expansion.

Is that why last tier the only ST fights it was ~50-100k behind BM? or this tier, on Mal, it's about ~70k or so behind BM. Yeah, MM has totally been able to keep up this whole expansion.

[Deleted]

Is that why last tier the only ST fights it was ~50-100k behind BM? or this tier, on Mal, it's about ~70k or so behind BM. Yeah, MM has totally been able to keep up this whole expansion.

not trying to back anything up with some anecdotal data here.. but I did 239k DPS on malkorok as MM, and later "only" 263k on Thok with the same gear as BM (552). They are 2 different bosses, but for us hunters they are pretty simple, 100% uptime on boss, similar duration, cd usage etc. We run with 3 warriors + feral, which means 40 sec of shattering throw and 30 sec of skull banner during CA phase... thats a lot of extra damage for MM

MM is definetly last of the 3 specs, but since all the ST bosses are rather easy, you can just play MM for nostalgia or whatever and still perform "ok". But the difference should not be as high as 70k for a ST boss, if played properly and with a proper raid setup

[Hayro1]

MM is definetly last of the 3 specs, but since all the ST bosses are rather easy, you can just play MM for nostalgia or whatever and still perform "ok". But the difference should not be as high as 70k for a ST boss, if played properly and with a proper raid setup

On Thok MM is ~5k behind BM, albeit that top MM parse is ahead of the second MM (same guild as well) by almost 30k. It's 55k+ for Mal, and that's using BM's 4th place. Not sure why it's so close on Thok, even the second place, while Mal is quite different. Obviously most top guilds are hiding their Heroic logs (especially to those who are 7+ Heroics in. I guess the logs shifted around since I checked earlier, cause it was ~60-70k for Mal, albeit 55k+ isn't too far from it, so meh. Oh, and those parses are from 9/11 and 9/13.

[Charo]

Is that why last tier the only ST fights it was ~50-100k behind BM? or this tier, on Mal, it's about ~70k or so behind BM. Yeah, MM has totally been able to keep up this whole expansion.

And which fights was that on? Which guilds? Was it one of those heroic guilds that burn down Jin'rohk in one puddle where having double CDs with Readiness meant your spent the entire fight buffed with all your long CDs? My feral druid used to destroy everyone on fights like this too, when we killed them in 1-2 minutes and I had all my cooldowns and double ArP trinkets up the entire fight.

There are just too many situations where one spec can outperform another, there is no way MM is that far behind BM or SV for "normal people", if you are in one of those guilds where you're squeezing every last percent out of your characters, you already know what you need to do to maximize your DPS, but for us "peons" of the raiding scene, MM==BM, pick one, and use SV on AOE heavy fights.