1. #1

    Strength and parry

    Death knights convert strength to parry, one resource i found i feel is outdated said that it was 4 str per point of parry. but by removing and replacing some of my gear it seems to come out closer to a 1-1 ratio.

    If someone could please reveal the math on that ass well as explaining the diminishing returns on parry (hopefully with an equation i can use) i would be very appreciative.

    Sincerely,
    Mortesh

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Omertocracy's Avatar
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    It's not quite 1:1, but it's much closer than 4:1, that was the Wrath scaling.

  3. #3
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
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    its for all plate tanks, not just dk also they changed it to flat parry, not rating so i belive str parry gives no dimmishin return
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    its for all plate tanks, not just dk also they changed it to flat parry, not rating so i belive str parry gives no dimmishin return
    there is a small diminish, i have two identical rings. they only give str, no parry. i removed the first and lost .9 parry, i removed the second and lost .92 parry

  5. #5
    If you're wanting the equation behind it so that you can balance your dodge/parry, don't bother. It is pretty much never worth the effort to balance them, since you're not even going to get an additional 0.10% damage reduction from doing so.

    If you're wanting the equation because you genuinely care about the math, see

    http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/07/06...in-mop-part-3/
    http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08...nts-all-tanks/
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    its for all plate tanks, not just dk also they changed it to flat parry, not rating so i belive str parry gives no dimmishin return
    Parry gained from Strength diminishes at the same returns as Parry gained by Parry Rating. The only difference between Parry from Strength versus Parry Rating is that Riposte is only influenced by actual Rating.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    If you're wanting the equation behind it so that you can balance your dodge/parry, don't bother. It is pretty much never worth the effort to balance them, since you're not even going to get an additional 0.10% damage reduction from doing so.

    If you're wanting the equation because you genuinely care about the math, see

    I want the math because i'm trying to design something new. Thank you for the links.

    not sure if this will do what i want but i basically want to be able to say "here's my parry rating, here's my str, whats my total parry."

    - - - Updated - - -

    how do i find preDR parry?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortesh View Post
    not sure if this will do what i want but i basically want to be able to say "here's my parry rating, here's my str, whats my total parry."
    Feeling rather lazy so I'm just going to copy and paste my code, which I hope you can decipher.

    Code:
    % c_p = 237.186;
    % k = 0.956;
    % str_to_parry = 951.158596;
    % rating_to_parry = 880;
    % base_parry = 3.00;
    % parry_from_talents = 0.00;
    % post_dr_parry = base_parry + parry_from_talents + base_strength / str_to_parry + ...
    %                 ( 1 / c_p + k / ((total_strength - base_strength) / str_to_parry + parry_rating / rating_to_parry) ) ^ (-1);
    % post_dr_parry_as_decimal = post_dr_parry / 100;
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mortesh View Post
    how do i find preDR parry?
    Parry Rating / 880 = Pre-DR parry%

    Note that this doesn't include strength's contribution (by definition it's the pre-DR parry% you see on the character pane tooltip flyout).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Alternatively, you can download this spreadsheet I made a while back and it will do what you're wanting. Pardon the lack of formatting since I didn't have any intention to share it (File --> Download As).

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nc&usp=sharing
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  9. #9
    SSHA778, i'm sorry that i'm an idiot. how do i use your code?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortesh View Post
    SSHA778, i'm sorry that i'm an idiot. how do i use your code?
    Sorry, that's not code you can actually run. I pasted that code there so you could see the formula in its entirety, so that if you were going to type it into Excel or some other program, all you had to do was substitute values.

    The spreadsheet I linked is something you'll be able to use yourself and modify after you download it. If there are any issues, let me know.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  11. #11
    i've got the spreadsheet but i don't quite udnerstand it's functionality. It tells me desired parry and dodge, but the avoidance number it gives doesn't match my dodge + my parry + my miss

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll tell you what i'm trying to do and let everyone laught at me. i'm looking for a viable dual wield tanking build that i can run rune of the fallen crusader on both weapons to get free heals, and i need to find a strength value that the 15% str bonus will equal a 4%+ increase in parry, while granting enough attack power to make my spells cause enough threat and my whit swings to be high enough to not lose my aggro. i'm looking into it because i hate not having defensive stats on my weapons and i feel that i can open up a lot more mitigation if i use dual tank weapons. but before i go and try it i want to run the numbers to see if it's even possible to make a setup like this without failing horribly.

    i know it's been looked into previously and that it's a significant loss in weapon spells (HS,DS,RS etc) but i want to see if i can find a balance that will break even or surpass 2h tanking. in terms of survivability and mitigation, as well as being on par for threat and damage hopefully.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortesh View Post
    i've got the spreadsheet but i don't quite udnerstand it's functionality. It tells me desired parry and dodge, but the avoidance number it gives doesn't match my dodge + my parry + my miss
    Yeah, ignore the desired dodge/parry part. You would use those if you were trying to balance your dodge/parry%'s, but you can't use those values directly. Better to just ignore them. It will get confusing.

    The avoidance number it gives you is your post-suppression avoidance against a boss.

    For every level a mob is above your character, so L91 (+1), L92 (+2), or L93 (+3, boss), they will negate 1.5% of your dodge, parry, and miss (each). It's like they have hit/expertise, so they're ignoring a portion of your dodge/parry.

    So, if you do the calculations:

    L91: Ignores 1.5% dodge, 1.5% parry, and 1.5% miss = 4.5% suppression
    L92: Ignores 3.0% dodge, 3.0% parry, and 3.0% miss = 9.0% suppression
    L93: Ignores 4.5% dodge, 4.5% parry, and 3.0% miss (because you only have 3.0% miss, so it's capped) = 12.0% suppression

    Let's say you have 12% post-DR dodge and 15% post-DR parry. Against a boss, you will actually have:
    12% - 4.5% = 7.5% dodge
    15% - 4.5% = 10.5% parry
    3.0% - 3.0% = 0% miss
    = 18% total avoidance post-suppression
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  13. #13
    okay, that makes sense. where can i find my parry chance and dodge chances before supression. because i won't even consider doing this unless i can gain at least 4% parry frmo my strength when rune of the fallen crusader procs.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortesh View Post
    okay, that makes sense. where can i find my parry chance and dodge chances before supression. because i won't even consider doing this unless i can gain at least 4% parry frmo my strength when rune of the fallen crusader procs.
    Set cell F13 to 0. It's the cell next to "suppress" that should read 0.12.

    Note that suppression is not the same as the pre-DR values.

    As for your parry/dodge chances (post-DR), they're in C10 and C11.
    Last edited by SSHA778; 2013-09-19 at 08:14 PM.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  15. #15
    well, now i see why nobody uses FC for tanking

    - - - Updated - - -

    i would require just about 35000 strength beforet he proc from FC would grant me over 4% parry that i'd lose from removing sword shatter. and then i'd still have to test the dmg threat.

  16. #16
    Some/many dk's do use FC to tank with, but that's because they don't feel they need to go full-defensive in their gearing. With a 70-80% uptime on FC, you end up getting hit about 2-3% more often with FC than SSh, but you gain some marginal self-healing and some extra damage (and extra damage may result in less damage taken if it kills an add a few seconds faster).

  17. #17
    yeah but it's likely those dks use 2h and i was crunching for a DW spec. if you run double FC on both weapons the uptime is near 100%, it's 95-98 depending on fights. low motion fights are obviously better.

    as well as it having no ICD you get a lot of free heals, charge scent of blood faster, and have the ability to equip tanking weapons for additional bonus stats.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortesh View Post
    as well as it having no ICD you get a lot of free heals, charge scent of blood faster, and have the ability to equip tanking weapons for additional bonus stats.
    Free healing is not the same as useful healing. Useful healing impacts the decisions that your healers make when they are actively healing you.

    You will charge Scent of Blood stacks slower because DW imposes a steep auto-attack miss penalty. Since SoB only procs off main hand strikes, and since it is on a PPM system, you will generate SoB stacks slower.

    The bonus stats are negligible when you consider that RNG is a very real factor in tanking, and that generally you die from very short bursts (where small stat increases do very little) instead of overall damage taken (where small stat increases do a moderate amount).

    If you want to continue discussing DW tanking, then that is technically supposed to go in this thread:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1169016
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

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