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  1. #41
    Over 9000! Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Did you even play the past 2 patches? Did you play when your shield and 1hander would gray out and become unusable until you zoned, in pvp if someone disarmed your shield? Did you play when you would consistently get cycloned or deep freezed with spell reflect up, despite of only having 35 ms latency? Yes indeed, it was very skillful.

    Look I miss Wotlk Stance dancing. But back then, Spell Reflect was on a 10 second cooldown. Missing a single reflect wouldn't be game breaker. Also putting on a shield didn't annihilate your offensive capabilities, as you could Shield Slam (and dispell with it), you had access to a second interrupt, you could block and Revenge Spam melee. You had options. But after Cata all that was essentially gone.
    I miss those days too and unfortunately for the sake of any credibility I've had as a good PvPer I'm not willing to move on.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    We have always had warriors in our raid; and our guild, while not a hardcore progression guild, has been top 500 for three expansions now. We haven't completely benched a class since...ever. We even had mages raiding w/us during Sunwell. Our warriors perform very well.

    In all fairness, warriors are not the only class who act like the sky is falling every patch (although it feels like it sometimes).

    Yes, we've had some caster-heavy tiers but that is more due to faulty encounter design than anything.
    You offer anecdotal evidence. Others like raiders themselves etc. even Blizzard and especially theorycrafters offer actual evidence to the fact that Warriors were having serious issues.

    I will offer you a piece of anecdote of my own. In 5.3 my Warrior was benched, in favor of my hunter, because of the stream of QQ from healers, that 2 melee in a 10 man group are unhealable. I hate my Hunter with a passion I can't describe. I haaaaaaaaaate it. But I played it. Because it was easier and because my guild demanded it. I don't want to play Hunter. I want to play Warrior. And Blizzard should make playing that class enjoyable and rewarding too. Every class should be enjoyable and rewarding. And you don't need to be top dps for that. But most certainly you need it to be viable and competitive.
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    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  3. #43
    donno how bad warrior damage is, but i find it unacceptable that they use Intimidating Shout offensively, i dont like being trained by warrior that open up on me with charge popping all cds then using Intimidating Shout and it doesnt break untill im at like 40%
    it should break on damage instantly
    "The speed of light is faster than the speed of sound.
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  4. #44
    celista, mihalik: i don't think this thread has a lot to do with pve. No one is complaining about the warrior in a pve environment.

    to the op: basically, you'd want the 5.3 warrior back?

  5. #45
    Warriors got buffed because the PVP nerfs at the start of the expansion completely ruined Arms. Fury got buffed because it was also behind in PVE.

    Arms is still the lowest dps single target melee spec in the game, ahead of only shadow priests overall. Yes they have good utility and survival, which is nice after being completely assraped in both PVE and PVP for the 5seconds of glory it had at the start of the expansion. The buffs were needed, Arms is strong at ilvl496 with current changes but will lose potency when the ilvl cap is brought up in PVP. Arms AOE is strong but other classes can compete (warlocks, shamans especially) and have much stronger single target damage to top it off.

    If anything I think Arms needs further damage buffs to deal with the pathetic single target damage scaling in high end gear.


    All the other stuff about it being skilless bla bla bla class, just hilarious. It shows you feel the need to take out your frustrations by devaluing the efforts of others in the hope that it will make you feel better about yourself and your percieved abilities.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2013-09-25 at 04:52 AM.
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  6. #46
    Brewmaster Jawless Jones's Avatar
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    i think my sig explains it all

    take the bad with the good, if you weren't complaining about a class being bad, you have no right to complain about them being good
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombiebob
    I'm still waiting on someone to tell me where all these people that suddenly care about Warrior balance were during Cataclysm when they were blow up dolls with plate armor on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cutterx2202 View Post
    Stop complaining to solve your lack of ability, and start reading and practicing to gain ability. Stop trying to bring people down to your level instead of striving to raise yours.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    You mean like the MoP beta Heroic Leap, with the 4 piece pvp set bonus?

    Look an argument can be made in favor of Intervene root breaker. The correct positioning of the banners to use the root breaker effectively as a gap closer is a fairly skillful thing.
    True, but its stupid. Intervene shouldn't be able to close gaps and be used offensively. All it does is force you to make banner macros (for anyone serious thats not an issue but I like to think newer players have no idea) and use intervene purely as a rootbreak. The point of the ability is intervene and protect an ally; I personally think safeguard should be baseline with no rootbreak and a seperate rootbreak ability. 30 seconds is too low of a cd most likely, and having it attached to HL reduces its functionality; HL is used defensively as often as offensively and using it for a rootbreak would be annoying.

  8. #48
    I expected some rant when i saw the tilte, but nice analytic post.

    ANd yes, its stupid when they give a class abilities that you should use in a certain order to perform better and it ends in "if you just smash 3 abilities you are better of".

    In ruins the character of a class.

  9. #49
    I can't believe the crying about warriors. Where is the hate for Disc Priests who've dominated arena since mankind existed.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Did you even play the past 2 patches? Did you play when your shield and 1hander would gray out and become unusable until you zoned, in pvp if someone disarmed your shield? Did you play when you would consistently get cycloned or deep freezed with spell reflect up, despite of only having 35 ms latency? Yes indeed, it was very skillful.

    Look I miss Wotlk Stance dancing. But back then, Spell Reflect was on a 10 second cooldown. Missing a single reflect wouldn't be game breaker. Also putting on a shield didn't annihilate your offensive capabilities, as you could Shield Slam (and dispell with it), you had access to a second interrupt, you could block and Revenge Spam melee. You had options. But after Cata all that was essentially gone.
    Very good points. Sure wouldn't mind having revenge back... And some passive ARP so we can kill blood DKs...
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Occult View Post
    I can't believe the crying about warriors. Where is the hate for Disc Priests who've dominated arena since mankind existed.
    Disc has been bad at the start of cata and into mist of pandaria. Warlocks have dominated arena the most out of any class.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  12. #52
    Deleted
    To be honest I don't see any issues with the current state of Warriors. They've been doing fairly okay in the last few months, but nothing great and now they finally get a chance of being strong, you want them slammed back into the ground.

    What you're asking for will mean everything about the Warrior is made useless, and where is the fun in that? I do agree that Warriors should return to Stance Dancing & Shield requirements, because while they may not have been extremely fun, it was a mechanic that set out the great from the good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by worsthitmanNa View Post
    Disc has been bad at the start of cata and into mist of pandaria.
    Did we play the same Expansion? Discipline Priests certainly were not extreme in Cataclysm, but they were certainly not bad either.

  13. #53
    Elemental Lord Korgoth's Avatar
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    I guess everyone here is okay with this brainless class mashing a skilless rotation with little to no resource system
    COMPARED TO WHAT?????

    The mana dps that have pretty much 0 resource system and spam all game?

    A warrior has to pool rage for burst, has to swap stances when not getting trained if they have a trinket...

    What does a mage have to do? What does a lock? The only thing brainless is your understanding of resource systems. Warriors have one of the most real time game dependent systems out there in a game where almost every class is on a mana spam as you can setup.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    COMPARED TO WHAT?????

    The mana dps that have pretty much 0 resource system and spam all game?

    A warrior has to pool rage for burst, has to swap stances when not getting trained if they have a trinket...

    What does a mage have to do? What does a lock? The only thing brainless is your understanding of resource systems. Warriors have one of the most real time game dependent systems out there in a game where almost every class is on a mana spam as you can setup.
    Warlocks, spriests and balance druids all have resource systems separate from mana that they have to manage.

    As for disc, they're strong in 2's but it's 2s...:P *shrug* prefer sham for 3s/5s.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by VoodooGaming View Post
    To be honest I don't see any issues with the current state of Warriors. They've been doing fairly okay in the last few months, but nothing great and now they finally get a chance of being strong, you want them slammed back into the ground.

    What you're asking for will mean everything about the Warrior is made useless, and where is the fun in that? I do agree that Warriors should return to Stance Dancing & Shield requirements, because while they may not have been extremely fun, it was a mechanic that set out the great from the good.
    The only thing skillful about it was "predicting", like reflecting hammer of justice/blood horror. Other than that it was awful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbarh View Post
    may i suggest you check out wowwiki or any similar site, it's Grom that orders the murder of Cairne

  16. #56
    Deleted
    Okay, first of all, when I've read that warriors did RESPECTABLE damage I wanted to stop reading. I'll reply anyway tho.

    For now, warriors have amazing spread damage which is even comparable to warlocks' on arena if you pick Bloodstorm. However, you'll lack all of the CC. Because of damage that Deep Wounds do, warriors finally do good sustained damage, which was their problem since... Cata? The dot on single target isn't overpowered in any way, but when you spread it on multiple targets you may feel almost as strong in terms of damage pressure as unholy DK. It's fun.

    Survivability? Wait for mages to scale with damage. Meh, wait for other classes to scale. Warriors scale surprisngly bad with anything other than weapons. The plate wearers, masters of weapons, surely won't look as good as they look now when it comes to defensives in middle of the season.

    Mobility? It was ALWAYS warrior's niche. You could use Safeguard to break roots before, but you didn't notice that because of poor damage warriors did. However, I agree, that casters have harder time now with double interrupt and double reflect in our World of Spellcleaves. A good idea would be to make MR and SR share a short Cooldown together. Same goes for the kicks.
    Tho, anytime you watch a stream of a top warrior like Hood or Trille, they sit in CC a lot. Maybe it is a problem in lower brackets only? :>

    The problem with warrior is somewhere else. In TBC and WotLK you could easily say which warrior is good and which is bad. Stance dancing, shield play - it was the thing that differ noobs from pros. Here's a graph about sPriests and Warriors skill level, posted by Veev (a warrior who won MLG as TSG, one of the most legendary warriors) - http://www.veevsvault.com/files/warr_vs_sp1.jpg. Enjoy.

    As he writes in his post, and I strongly agree with him, warrior class has been dumbed down. Whenever warrior class is good, it's 1600 players that start screaming first. They're scary, because people don't know how to peel properly, how to roll defensives, how to counter a warrior. Everyone can roll a warrior and learn how to play it on 1700 rating fairly quick. And that is the problem. Warriors need their skill capped raised, not necessarily by getting Shield req for Shield Wall and Reflect (does it take skill to make a macro? No.), but by fun spells like we had before. Anyone remembers that - http://www.wowhead.com/spell=65925? It would be to overpowered in today's PvP, but spells like that should exist. Lower warrior's base damage, make them increase it with spells like Unrelenting Assault, Glyph of Rude Interruption (lower the base damage and make the glyph baseline, so skilled warriors will do more damage then they do know, but 1600s will be much worse and forced to improve!), add some fun stuff, buffs, debuffs, that a warrior could apply depending on situation. And then, we could have a class which would not lose it's identity, fun spell kit with amazing ability and won't be as easy to play for new players as it is now.

    Agree?
    Last edited by mmoc7edc780be8; 2013-09-25 at 08:35 AM.

  17. #57
    So to sum up, you would want :

    - Force spec warriors into piercing howl (Making hamstring the crappiest slow in game with a GCD.. oh and it requires rage as well!) thus losing 1 interrupt. Making DS on a bit longer CD would maybe be a bit more viable. But removing it ? lol

    - REMOVE glyph of Heroic leap ? Lmfao..

    - Increase CD on charge so we're going to basically stare at casters derping us

    - Force Safeguard talent, more derping from casters

    - Add the retarded system of equipping a shield for reflects ? ( If someone says it takes less skills now, stop playing WoW. /equip shield macro takes MAD skills amirite ?)

    - Have a higher CD on Bladestorm and can be disarmed whilst bladestorming

    - Intimidating shout on 3 mins CD (LOL)


    So basically making warriors even worse than 5.3 when they were as useful as a door knob in arena.

    I thought you were only going to talk about the warrior damage and I agree it's a bit too powerful, but nerfing utility is retarded.

    Oh and during 5.3 warrior damage OUTSIDE of Avatar and derp macro was useless, there was no consistent damage at all. It was not even near okay. Now you actually have more choices with Storm Bolt and Avatar, you are not forced to spec something specific anymore.

    Utility doesn't need nerfing at all. Pillar kite and you're fine.

  18. #58
    Herald of the Titans Rorke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I think it's important to note, he used to be a big Warrior person. Now he's not. How poetic.
    Nope, I still play a Warrior. Just like I play a Rogue and DK. Unlike most people I don't have this fanatic loyalty to a certain class that makes it seem like the class is some form of sports team. These people live off of the "us vs them" mentality when it comes down to discussing these form of topics. Most of them probably don't even play a different class seriously.

    OP You seriously jumped the horse on that part tho.

    The shield macro especially as of late was amazingly buggy. It failed more often then it worked, for no specific reason. That is not good game design by any means, we already have enough pathing issues with Heroic Leap. Beyond that Intimidating Shout has an amazingly long cooldown for how long it actually lasts. If it would break on damage faster OR if it would break on bleed damage it would be utterly and completely useless. Now regarding the mobility nerfs. If that would go trough, the only thing a Warrior could ever fight are other warriors. Literally. You have no idea wtf you are talking about.
    No I didn't. People are mistaking my idea of reverting the shield changes to make the class take more skill. I don't care about the skill level of the class because its always going to be designed to take no skill. I want the shield changes to be reverted because equipping a shield is an intended weakness for the Warrior at the benefit of possibly reflecting a spell or reducing damage taken. That to me is good design. Its okay for the class to have weaknesses which right now it has none.

    There are no pathing issues with heroic leap that effect rated play. There used to be serious problems with Heroic Leap during the start of Cataclysm, but its mostly good now. Actual problems used to be "charge jumping" which Warriors today should be grateful that Blizzard fixed that shit.

    Intimidating Shout would not be useless if it actually broke on any form of damage which its supposed to be intended to. The ability was like that forever and used to be on a three minute cool down. Now its on a 90 second cool down and doesn't break on Warrior damage for up to 3-4 seconds. You think another stun on top of another 4 second stun with two interrupts, two reflects is okay?


    take the bad with the good, if you weren't complaining about a class being bad, you have no right to complain about them being good
    Except I knew Arms was bad in 5.3 in pvp. I knew that the utility buffs Arms received was enough until they started to buff damage through the roof. Do you think its okay for a class to have access to an ability that does 215% weapon damage and applies a bleed that has been buffed by 65% with no nerf compensation? And that same ability doesn't cost any resources.

    I argued in the Warrior forums that Arms shouldn't get baseline damage buffs to abilities because the damage is way too easy to apply and is basically endless unlike Frost DK's who have actual downtime and less utility and a smaller defensive tool kit. The only damage buff I thought would be okay was an ArP buff to Colossus Smash.

    Stopped at bold text, laughed, kept reading, laughed more. You want literally everything nerfed. Our dmg, our tool kit, our mobility, our CC, everything. Plus you seem pro homogenization, which is terrible for any game, but even more so for an mmo.
    The things I want nerfed are utility and mobility because I know the damage isn't nerfed as pve is more important to Blizzard than pvp.

    I want Hamstring back on the 1.0 second gcd.

    I want the shield requirements back or Spell reflect/mass reflect to cost 50 rage.

    I want Bladestorm to be disarmable again.

    I want Juggernaut on a 15 second cool down, Warbringer on a 22 second cool down and Double Time on a 24 second cool down.

    I want Glyph of Heroic Leap removed and replaced with a glyph that reduces charge's cool down by 3 additional seconds.

    I want intimidating shout to actually break on damage or else be nerfed to a 3 minute cool down.

    I want the intervene buff reverted.

    This isn't much to ask for a class that has an endless resource system, two interrupts, a fear breaker, three gap closers, effortless and ridiculous cleave damage and high amounts of sustained and burst pressure. You can't have both amazing damage and amazing utility or else you have something like 5.0 - 5.1 Warrior which was eventually rightfully nerfed.

    I want every Warrior to imagine playing some caster like a Mage, Lock or Priest and go against something that can break your fears every thirty seconds, close the gap every 12 seconds with a stun, close it again every thirty seconds, close it a third time and break snares using a banner, reflect your spells twice, interrupt you twice, stun you 4 seconds every 30/40 seconds, fear stun you that doesn't break on damage all while applying easy and effortless sustained damage. And none of that hardly costs that "something" any resources. That "something" is a Warrior.
    rip Dave Zablidowsky

  19. #59
    I find it ammusing how some people equate skill to what is basically the quality of your macro. At the moment when I spell reflect or shield wall I need to press 1 button, in WOTLK (where I loved Warrior PvP) I had to press.. 1 button. The skill of an oldschool Warrior came down to the quality of his macros, and whilst Warrior PvP required a little more skill in resource management (spell reflect and shattering throw were expensive on rage), most of the stance dancing simply required a whole bunch of quality macros and 3/3 points in tactical mastery.

    Still, I love WOTLK Warrior in general, and until very recently I was playing it on a high pop private server. Because of that I can easily relate to the differences. Warrior in MOP is very very different and the changes this patch reflect what was needed at the moment, you can't compare that to a time when all classes were weaker and when the class was much different as a whole.



    Making spell reflect cost rage almost makes it useless in most situations. Rage works completely differently to how it did in WOTLK. Endless resource system, that is quite hilarious. "I want all the nerfs", you're just a whiny troll who got beat by a Warrior.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2013-09-25 at 12:50 PM.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Nope, I still play a Warrior. Just like I play a Rogue and DK. Unlike most people I don't have this fanatic loyalty to a certain class that makes it seem like the class is some form of sports team. These people live off of the "us vs them" mentality when it comes down to discussing these form of topics. Most of them probably don't even play a different class seriously.



    No I didn't. People are mistaking my idea of reverting the shield changes to make the class take more skill. I don't care about the skill level of the class because its always going to be designed to take no skill. I want the shield changes to be reverted because equipping a shield is an intended weakness for the Warrior at the benefit of possibly reflecting a spell or reducing damage taken. That to me is good design. Its okay for the class to have weaknesses which right now it has none.

    There are no pathing issues with heroic leap that effect rated play. There used to be serious problems with Heroic Leap during the start of Cataclysm, but its mostly good now. Actual problems used to be "charge jumping" which Warriors today should be grateful that Blizzard fixed that shit.

    Intimidating Shout would not be useless if it actually broke on any form of damage which its supposed to be intended to. The ability was like that forever and used to be on a three minute cool down. Now its on a 90 second cool down and doesn't break on Warrior damage for up to 3-4 seconds. You think another stun on top of another 4 second stun with two interrupts, two reflects is okay?




    Except I knew Arms was bad in 5.3 in pvp. I knew that the utility buffs Arms received was enough until they started to buff damage through the roof. Do you think its okay for a class to have access to an ability that does 215% weapon damage and applies a bleed that has been buffed by 65% with no nerf compensation? And that same ability doesn't cost any resources.

    I argued in the Warrior forums that Arms shouldn't get baseline damage buffs to abilities because the damage is way too easy to apply and is basically endless unlike Frost DK's who have actual downtime and less utility and a smaller defensive tool kit. The only damage buff I thought would be okay was an ArP buff to Colossus Smash.



    The things I want nerfed are utility and mobility because I know the damage isn't nerfed as pve is more important to Blizzard than pvp.

    I want Hamstring back on the 1.0 second gcd.

    I want the shield requirements back or Spell reflect/mass reflect to cost 50 rage.

    I want Bladestorm to be disarmable again.

    I want Juggernaut on a 15 second cool down, Warbringer on a 22 second cool down and Double Time on a 24 second cool down.

    I want Glyph of Heroic Leap removed and replaced with a glyph that reduces charge's cool down by 3 additional seconds.

    I want intimidating shout to actually break on damage or else be nerfed to a 3 minute cool down.

    I want the intervene buff reverted.

    This isn't much to ask for a class that has an endless resource system, two interrupts, a fear breaker, three gap closers, effortless and ridiculous cleave damage and high amounts of sustained and burst pressure. You can't have both amazing damage and amazing utility or else you have something like 5.0 - 5.1 Warrior which was eventually rightfully nerfed.

    I want every Warrior to imagine playing some caster like a Mage, Lock or Priest and go against something that can break your fears every thirty seconds, close the gap every 12 seconds with a stun, close it again every thirty seconds, close it a third time and break snares using a banner, reflect your spells twice, interrupt you twice, stun you 4 seconds every 30/40 seconds, fear stun you that doesn't break on damage all while applying easy and effortless sustained damage. And none of that hardly costs that "something" any resources. That "something" is a Warrior.
    wow, I'm used to see whining here, to be honest I probably QQ a lot myself, but you've gone far beyond that. "I want warrios not only to go back to being worse than everything else, I want them completely useless!"

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