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  1. #141
    Have you looked at any other bosses in SoO?

    The way the DJ is written just makes it seem like much because every mechanic is described there, sometimes in too much detail (all the random aoe stuff for example)

    I feel you just picked out Paragons because the DJ on that encounter is especially bad, the fight is nowhere near as complicated as the journal might suggest.

  2. #142
    If you compared Brutallus to Illidari council things would look almost as complicated. Paragons looks compicated on paper just because there's a lot of bosses but in reality the mechanics are very obvious after a few pulls.. I still couldn't tell you what ability belongs to each boss even after killing paragons twice but half of them are just stuff like don't stand in shit etc. Nothing complicated.
    Last edited by Paulosio; 2013-09-26 at 05:29 PM.

  3. #143
    Deleted
    Encounters are now more complex because other things aren't.

    Threat is no longer an issue.
    Almost all classes have instant abilities and can do their job while moving, so movement is not as big deal as it used to be.
    Class specific perks have been removed to trivialize group composition, such as shaman's totem placement or differences between healing classes.

  4. #144
    I'd like to see us move away from "dance" fights, IE those with a million things to remember, and move back towards ones that are just gear/skill dependent. Know your class, get geared appropriately, and you will do fine.

    I don't like having to study for fights like a godamn physics final. I hear about fights being gearchecks. All fights should be gear checks. There shouldn't be fights where your gear/skill in your class doesn't matter, only that you studied your homework correctly. I hate that. If I'm good at my class, interrupt appropriately, conserve mana, or whatever, I should be able to raid whatever I want assuming I have put in the requisite time to acquire appropriate gear.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    I'd like to see us move away from "dance" fights, IE those with a million things to remember, and move back towards ones that are just gear/skill dependent. Know your class, get geared appropriately, and you will do fine.

    I don't like having to study for fights like a godamn physics final. I hear about fights being gearchecks. All fights should be gear checks. There shouldn't be fights where your gear/skill in your class doesn't matter, only that you studied your homework correctly. I hate that. If I'm good at my class, interrupt appropriately, conserve mana, or whatever, I should be able to raid whatever I want assuming I have put in the requisite time to acquire appropriate gear.
    I am inclined to agree. Honestly I think they should stop catering to the upper echelon of raiders. If Method or Paragon clear an entire raid in a day, who really cares? Those people are so far above the curve that they should be a footnote, if that. I don't mind a handful of simple mechanics, but too many and it becomes a clusterfuck. Look at Dark Shaman, for example. A tank swap, kiting (the slimes), like 4-5 different variations of "move out of the fire"? Totally ridiculous. Or Nazgrim, I get that he's a Warrior mob and should do Warrior-like things, but does he need the adds?

    Go back to simpler fights that require you to simply play your class instead of having enough mechanics that you need to go over strategies like you were doing a football play, and honestly to hell with the topmost raiders who would say it's too easy as a result. I'd rather have the old style fights with the new style abilities any day over extra mechanics just for the sake of extra mechanics. Every fight doesn't have to be something new or interesting.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-26 at 08:04 PM.

  6. #146
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    The way the OP presents the two bosses/which one he'd choose for each era is obviously extremly biased.


    Vanilla/BC was hard, but often for different reasons.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    I'd like to see us move away from "dance" fights, IE those with a million things to remember, and move back towards ones that are just gear/skill dependent. Know your class, get geared appropriately, and you will do fine.

    I don't like having to study for fights like a godamn physics final. I hear about fights being gearchecks. All fights should be gear checks. There shouldn't be fights where your gear/skill in your class doesn't matter, only that you studied your homework correctly. I hate that. If I'm good at my class, interrupt appropriately, conserve mana, or whatever, I should be able to raid whatever I want assuming I have put in the requisite time to acquire appropriate gear.
    We've gone over every fight in SoO when we get to them and have only had any real trouble on one fight, so far (Thok). Well, make that two (some people really don't like paying attention to ground circles on Malkorok). First 2 fights were one-shots, Pride was a one shot, Galakras took a few attempts, Juggernaut was a one-shot, Dark Shamans was a one or two-shot, Nazgrim was a one or two shot, Spoils took a few attempts, Siegecrafter took a few attempts, and Paragons took a few attempts.

    I wouldn't describe any of those fights as "dancing," except for maybe Paragons... and that one is just "get out of the ground effects, stand in the beam, kill this thing." I guess, if you're on the conveyer belt, Siegecrafter might be a bit of a dance fight.

    Seriously, SoO has a large amount of mechanically simple fights. I cannot, offhand, remember much that would qualify the fights as being, in your words, "dance" fights. The same goes for most ToT encounters. Pretty much everything in these two more recent tiers has boiled down to: Don't stand in stuff, interrupts, spread out, group up, and, occasionally, stand in stuff.

    People like to give fights like Horridon a bad reputation -- there are oh-so-many mechanics! No, there's not. Don't stand in stuff on doors 1-4, interrupt on door 2, and remove debuffs. Boss just ran up to you? Don't stand in his cone. Kill the marked targets. That's literally the entire fight. Don't stand in stuff, interrupt on one door, and dispel/cleanse/decurse. That's the entire fight reduced to 3 mechanics.

    Sure, there are fights like Durumu that are literal "dance" fights. Maze phase? Mark a leader and follow him when he moves... if you can't see the safe zones by yourself.

    You have to realize that fights quickly become extremely boring if they don't have unique and interesting mechanics. Ji-kun would be a simple tank, spank, and AOE heal fight if it weren't for the nests. Iron Qon would be a simple stack-up-spread-out fight if it weren't for the Tornado phase. Lei Shen wouldn't be anywhere near difficult if it weren't for the transition phases (which, btw, the normal phases more than teach you how to handle).

    The occasional "gear check" fight is alright, but I do not want to see more than one or two of them a tier. Gear checks reward heroic guilds and punish everyone else. Want to beat this fight? Come back next week after you've gotten more drops.
    Last edited by Belloc; 2013-09-26 at 08:11 PM.
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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Varish View Post
    and people still pretend vanilal and bc was harder
    3 mechanics with no videos or guides IS harder than 10 mechanics with both...

  9. #149
    Is raiding autistic? What kind of asinine question is that?

  10. #150
    Deleted
    I wouldnt say the fights got easier or harder... But i dont really think thats what the OP wanted to discus. I think that some of the fights (MoP fights specificaly) are overcomplicated, and it doesnt suit them.
    I dont mind alot of abilities if it fits the fight. You know, its cool to have some kind of complexity. But when i have to use about 30 minuts to just have an idea of what the fight is like.. Then its to much.

    Its not about the fights being hard or easy, its about them being to complex for their own good. Sometimes it just feels like blizz had alot of spare mechanics and went; "Hey! why dont we just throw them into one big pille and make a boss fight out of it". Sometimes thats not a bad thing, but why did Dark shamans have to have 3 or 4 abilities that was "dont stand in swirlye stuff"?
    I actually liked the Norushen encount, and it was complex. But not every ability in the encount had anything to do with my role. So role specific complexity can be cool, its just anoying when its over done.

    I wish they could just focus a bit more on making the fights diverse in complexity. Make some that doesnt have as many abilities, but require them to be executed right. Then have some fights that have a lot of complex things.
    SoO just feels like at has a tad to many fights that are overly complex. Just my 2 cents.

  11. #151
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    I'd like to see us move away from "dance" fights, IE those with a million things to remember, and move back towards ones that are just gear/skill dependent. Know your class, get geared appropriately, and you will do fine.

    I don't like having to study for fights like a godamn physics final. I hear about fights being gearchecks. All fights should be gear checks. There shouldn't be fights where your gear/skill in your class doesn't matter, only that you studied your homework correctly. I hate that. If I'm good at my class, interrupt appropriately, conserve mana, or whatever, I should be able to raid whatever I want assuming I have put in the requisite time to acquire appropriate gear.
    The problem with that is that they pretty much removed skill from players classes. If all fights was made into gear checks, it would kinda lose its point. To me, fights being skill checks is a lot more logical than them being gear checks. Figure these two scenarios.
    "Guys, there is no point to even try this boss now. We need 3 more average item level on the raid and we can just steamroll the fight, so lets just do it next week"
    compared to
    "Guys, we just need to handle the dispelling properly, move out from the fire and stack up during the AoE phase and we got this boss!"
    Which of those makes the most sense? Killing a boss that is a skill check compared to gear check is also a lot more rewarding to the player. A boss dropping dead because half your raid got weapons during farm will never be as gratifying as a fight that your group collaboratively developed a strategy for and managed to down.
    Gear checks also punishes guilds with bad loot luck.

    Pretty much every single fight in SoO can be explained with 2-3 sentences. We "boosted" my friend that had 0 SoO experience through SoO last week, and it took me pretty much 10 seconds to explain each fight and she never died once and did more than acceptable dps. The problem with as you say, fight feel like studying for physicas final, is the way that most guides and especially the dungeon journal is built up, they spent to much time explaining useless information. Take Paragons as the OP chose. The DJ is a mess, but the thing is you can ignore 99% of those abilities.

    Step 1 is that you only have 33% of the abilities at once, so you get time to gradually learn the boss.

    Make up a kill order killing the currently most dangerous paragon each time.
    Whenever you got something else to dps (kunchongs, bloods, amber) switch to it before going back to the current paragon
    Move out from anything that looks like it hurts except for aim which you should stack in the split damage. Catalyst, spread especially if you got red/yellow, watch out for the clouds/fire and keep moving when you get the blazing trail.
    Tank only, have AM up when Rik'Kal casts injection. Swap on Korven after each stun nuke (or if you are quick swap between the stun and the nuke).
    Make sure the same tank dont tank Kil'Ruk and Xaril, the same goes for Skeer and Rik'Kal.

    The thing with paragons though is that even if you fail on something it does mean a wipe. Paragons has the longest text by far in dungeon journal, but it was one of the easiest fight in SoO. Compared to most other fights paragons was a complete joke.

  12. #152
    lack of beta testing and lack of dungeon journal gave a false sense of difficulty, wasnt actualy more difficult you just had poorer resources to work with on an easier boss

    TBH if heroic lei shen was relesaed at the beginning of vanilla and was tuned for level 60 the same it was tuned for 90 at 520-530 ilvl, i think the first lei shen kill would have been some time during TBC a couple years later

  13. #153
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I am inclined to agree. Honestly I think they should stop catering to the upper echelon of raiders. If Method or Paragon clear an entire raid in a day, who really cares? Those people are so far above the curve that they should be a footnote, if that. I don't mind a handful of simple mechanics, but too many and it becomes a clusterfuck. Look at Dark Shaman, for example. A tank swap, kiting (the slimes), like 4-5 different variations of "move out of the fire"? Totally ridiculous. Or Nazgrim, I get that he's a Warrior mob and should do Warrior-like things, but does he need the adds?

    Go back to simpler fights that require you to simply play your class instead of having enough mechanics that you need to go over strategies like you were doing a football play, and honestly to hell with the topmost raiders who would say it's too easy as a result. I'd rather have the old style fights with the new style abilities any day over extra mechanics just for the sake of extra mechanics. Every fight doesn't have to be something new or interesting.
    Dark Shamans is a fight that I agree was a bit over the top. But only from a tanking PoV really. That tank swap debuff just messes up the tanking so much. If they just had found a better way to deal with people tanking mobs 200 yards apart, Dark Shamans would have been great. Most of the mechanics on dark shamans are simple, if you compare dark shamans to say blood prince council in ICC, dark shams are 10x easier. But yeah, that tank debuff makes the tanking a clusterfuck.

    What is the problem with Nazgrim? How is that different from say Tortos. Nazgrim is an add fight. The boss itself got pretty much 0 mechanics, or well the entire fight got almost 0 mechanics.

    Nazgrim - Hit him hard in berserk phase, dont hit him in defensive stance unless you are tank. Tank swaps when your stacks drops. Dont stand in the charge shockwave / axe, heal up the war song / kill banner depending on which of the 4 abilities he uses.

    Nazgrims adds - Kill them
    Interrupt war shamans heal, move adds and boss awa from the totems.
    Move from the warriors bladestorm, stuns and similar interrupt it
    Interrupt the mages as much as possible
    If a rogue is focusing you (debuff), dont turn your back to it.

    Imo, in normal, dark shams did not need the tank debuff and thok is a bit overtuned for a normal encounter (or maybe it is just that the other normals are quite easy). Other than that, normal is pretty damn fine. Normals are probably the easiest they have been since ICC10 mans, maybe even since 80naxx.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    That isn't the point of the thread. We all know how far ahead current guilds are than the SKs, Death and Taxes, etc of old.

    Re-read the bolded part of my previous post and see if you disagree.

    edit: I'd still like to add that only one guild in the world killed M'uru 1.0 (and it wasn't bugged / "mathematically impossible").
    I didn't read your post to begin with, as I wasn't directly responding to you, but I read the bolded part as you requested, and I personally don't see any correlation between less/more strict tuning and learning mechanics. If you have any proof of correlation or even causation I'd love to see it.

    Also, note the part of your post I bolded. I believe you only speak for yourself with that statement, and that many people believe current guilds like Method and Blood Legion would struggle with a return to Vanilla and/or BC raiding.

  15. #155
    The game is so different now its stupid to even try comparing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zillionhz View Post
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  16. #156
    I really like complex fights. I like multiple phases, lots of mechanics, and a fight against enrage. My favorite fights of every expansion are always the complex ones: Kael'thas, Illidan, Firefighter, 1/0 Lights, H Cho'gall, H Al'akir, H Alysrazor, H Rag (though I didn't get there til it was nerfed), H Will of the Emperor, H Dark Animus, H Lei Shen, and H Sha of Pride (so far).

    I love being challenged by lots and lots of mechanics and mastering every mechanic in a complex fight as an individual and a team. Mastering your class and executing a rotation is really, really, really easy in comparison. That's why Patchwerk fights are boring and Blizzard doesn't really make them anymore.

    I don't see why people want fights where you just stand there and DPS and occasionally move out of fire. Some of the suggestions in this thread are just silly, like removing the adds on Nazgrim; that's the entire fight. Or removing everything but 1 mechanic on Dark Shaman; dealing with everything doing more damage and coming out quicker during the last 25% is the fight. I'm really confused as to where the difficulty and gratification will come from in super simplified fights.

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    Was way harder, just less complex and silly. Nowadays raids are much more forgiving than they used to be.
    I'd barely argue that being a true statement for BC, at best, but really? Vanilla raids were "unforgiving"?

    Did you do any raids in vanilla? Half your raid team was carrying the other half, and that second half wasn't really that great, either.
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  18. #158
    the fact that vanilla and BC bosses had less mechanics doesn't make them any easier. All these mechanics in current content is just annoying, not particularly difficult or enjoyable.

    Some of the funnest fights were patchwerk, vael, KT, Nightbane (kara boss), and elegon (imo). They weren't really mechanical but took a lot of dps/hps. You had to be on top of things. These new fights are run here, soak this, dispel that, click on this, now go back to dps. But after you beat the 3 or 4 mechanics they're easy. This excludes heroic raiding of course.

  19. #159
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    It's either too simple or too complicated, depends on who you ask...

  20. #160
    learning mechanics in wow is piss easy compared to anything in real life, so there should be no problems

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