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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    There are any number of things that Blizzard could do to improve the situation. For example, it could fix the ilvl computation to exclude gear not for the spec (or class armor type). LFR could require gear to be gemmed and enchanted. LFR could require all glyph slots be filled, and check the glyphs are not ridiculous for the given role. Finally, LFR could have automated mechanisms for identifying and calling out griefing, ninja pulls, and terrible underperformance.
    A system like that would take a lot of work and for it I would argue enchanted gear is a bonus but not something to bar you from (enchanted items are min/max and lets be honest LFR does not require that).

    Glyph slots I would put under the same vein as enchants so not a requirement.

    Gear - your gear must be 90% for the intended spec and be of the same armour type to get in. so say 2 items from an offspec would be allowed (pvp/dps gear for healers and tanks, and healer/tank gear for dps) any more than that and LFR system would deem it a risk.

    Ninja pulls griefing and under performance should be managed by players alone. Although blizzard did say proving grounds could be a way of getting LFR raiders to pass a check to enter raiding. (use a proving grounds rating of bronze/silver with ilevel rating to enter a raid)

  2. #382
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    LFR could require gear to be gemmed and enchanted. LFR could require all glyph slots be filled, and check the glyphs are not ridiculous for the given role. Finally, LFR could have automated mechanisms for identifying and calling out griefing, ninja pulls, and terrible underperformance.
    Which is all well and good, but how?

    How do you know if someone is gemmed badly? and more to the point, do they know they're gemmed badly?

    Lets put idiots being idiots to one side for the moment; how to you teach someone what's best and what isn't when they've never needed to know before now? How do you design a system which gets that across, rather than just punishes someone, for something they might not realise they're doing wrong.

    The same goes for poor performance, what makes you think they've got meters? What makes you think they know they're being bad?

    Outside of the meters (which are optional...) if I levelled a monk tomorrow and started killing things / completing quests, what measure is there to tell me that I'm doing badly? Of course there are places you can read this stuff, but again, why would I know I needed to read up if I don't know I'm doing badly?

    Are there any other examples of games outside of MMO's where you have to read up on a 3rd party site what you need to do in order to play the game "right"?

    It just goes back to something I think blizzard should have added a while ago, training, which is even more important now that casual is the way they're going. Simply throwing new spells at someone every few levels doesn't teach them how to use them and there's simply no hints in the game of the order / priority that these things should be used.

    Again this is the royal 'you' rather than the finger pointing 'you' What you said makes total sense and I'd love for something like it to exist but it needs to not just be a stick to beat people.
    Last edited by mmocd3e258d247; 2013-10-02 at 02:49 PM.

  3. #383
    Deleted
    just did wing 2 with an amazing group, we had 5 dps above 150k, rest were 70k-110k, so amazing group there, but we still wiped once on Nazgrim because people just tunnel vision! people are so obsessed with being the top on the meter they start to ignore tactics just so they can be top.

    i rarely see issues with low dps in LFR, its usually from people not listening to tactics, or healers signing up in dps gear for quicker queues.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooboy View Post
    Which is all well and good, but how?

    How do you know if someone is gemmed badly? and more to the point, do they know they're gemmed badly?

    Lets put idiots being idiots to one side for the moment; how to you teach someone what's best and what isn't when they've never needed to know before now? How do you design a system which gets that across, rather than just punishes someone, for something they might not realise they're doing wrong.

    The same goes for poor performance, what makes you think they've got meters? What makes you think they know they're being bad?

    Outside of the meters (which are optional...) if I levelled a monk tomorrow and started killing things / completing quests, what measure is there to tell me that I'm doing badly? Of course there are places you can read this stuff, but again, why would I know I needed to read up if I don't know I'm doing badly?

    Are there any other examples of games outside of MMO's where you have to read up on a 3rd party site what you need to do in order to play the game "right"?

    It just goes back to something I think blizzard should have added a while ago, training, which is even more important now that casual is the way they're going. Simply throwing new spells at someone every few levels doesn't teach them how to use them and there's simply no hints in the game of the order / priority that these things should be used.

    Again this is the royal 'you' rather than the finger pointing 'you' What you said makes total sense and I'd love for something like it to exist but it needs to not just be a stick to beat people.
    Thats the issue and I think proving grounds "could" be a possible solution. The LFR system could require say a bronze level in DPS/Healing/Tanking with ilvl. If you select an LFR dungeon have the required ilevel but not the achievement for bronze it would instead bring up teleport you to the proving grounds and ask you to complete the trial on bronze to enable you to enter the raid.

    It might be seen as a road block but could be a gentle way of showing new players how that class should normally act in the environment.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    just did wing 2 with an amazing group, we had 5 dps above 150k, rest were 70k-110k, so amazing group there, but we still wiped once on Nazgrim because people just tunnel vision! people are so obsessed with being the top on the meter they start to ignore tactics just so they can be top.

    i rarely see issues with low dps in LFR, its usually from people not listening to tactics, or healers signing up in dps gear for quicker queues.
    How does a healer queueing up in DPS gear make the queue faster? I understand how dps queueing up as a healer and then not healing quickens up the queue at the expense of everyone else but healers in dps gear?

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    There are any number of things that Blizzard could do to improve the situation. For example, it could fix the ilvl computation to exclude gear not for the spec (or class armor type). LFR could require gear to be gemmed and enchanted. LFR could require all glyph slots be filled, and check the glyphs are not ridiculous for the given role. Finally, LFR could have automated mechanisms for identifying and calling out griefing, ninja pulls, and terrible underperformance.
    I cannot help but feel it would be better if the 90 levels that players have to go through before entering LFR taught them what gems, glyphs and enchants to use and how to perform their rotation properly instead of relying on the player visiting third party sites. There is little point adding a test to the game when it does very little to educate players how to pass it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    How does a healer queueing up in DPS gear make the queue faster? I understand how dps queueing up as a healer and then not healing quickens up the queue at the expense of everyone else but healers in dps gear?
    Uhm, the healers are not actually healers but as you suggested DPS that are queuing as healers.

  7. #387
    Deleted
    Tbh, it's ridiculous how some people tend to exaggerate when it comes down to LFR.
    After reading some threads one could think that stepping in there is the worst nightmare imaginable...in reality, however, most runs (at least on reset day) are very, very smooth.

    I really wonder if the people complaining about it most even go in there.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Kezzik View Post
    First of all, let me get to this point first.

    1.) Has anyone else seen an INCREASE in chance of joining an lfr ALREADY IN PROGRESS? I don't WANT THAT. I want a FRESH RUN.

    My main point.

    2.) I am sitting in an LFR, an LFR that was already in progress btw, and we get to the trash for the Korkron Shaman boss. Two of the tanks leave. I am now waiting with 20+ other people for new tanks. 10 Mins pass - nothing.

    20 mins pass - nothing.

    People start to leave.

    I am now sitting in an LFR with 3 people, still in queue, 30 min later.

    If this is how LFR is after Flex is introduced, I want it removed from the game. It's a waste of resources.
    So you always want to get into fresh runs yet you complain that there are no people joining the runs that have fallen apart. Does not compute

  9. #389
    Just get rid of it. Flex is enough since it's meant for people who can't commit to scheduled raids.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by FobManX View Post
    Just get rid of it. Flex is enough since it's meant for people who can't commit to scheduled raids.

    IMO they should probably get rid of LFR, I honestly can't imagine someone actually enjoys LFR in it's current state, when there's hardly any mechanics, but people still wipe because they don't want to take 2 minutes to read the fight, when there's a dungeon journal tab that's one click away. Blizz needs to do some sort of openraid format for flex IMO. Either that, or literally make every LFR fight a one minute tank and spank, which I don't think they are going to do lol.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesmarcus View Post
    This means tanking has taken a nosedive now. You'd also be flamed at for daring to queue in to LFR as part of a guild group, and if you sounded like a raider, you'd also be flamed.
    I have never been flamed for sounding like a raider. I'm usually appreciated for coming in at #1 or #2 on HPS as well as dispels (when those are appropriate). Tanks are often flamed for not knowing what they're doing, but that's because raiding (including LFR) places the majority of the burden on them. They're automatically given raid leadership, and they often have to contend with mechanics that wipe the entire raid.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    IMO they should probably get rid of LFR, I honestly can't imagine someone actually enjoys LFR in it's current state, when there's hardly any mechanics, but people still wipe because they don't want to take 2 minutes to read the fight, when there's a dungeon journal tab that's one click away. Blizz needs to do some sort of openraid format for flex IMO. Either that, or literally make every LFR fight a one minute tank and spank, which I don't think they are going to do lol.
    I hear ya man but lfr is here to stay as long as the numbers are there to justify the dev time. If there is a decent amount of the playerbase still doing lfr blizz would not have the balls to just take it away otherwise they would risk a huge backlash.

    Flex will not make this a quick death, it will be slow....prob very slow if at all, we wont know unless blizz releases numbers.

  13. #393
    My experiences with LFR have been getting a bit better.

    Last night I ran through all the ToT raids on my Tank. No issues there whatsoever.

    Then, me and a friend decided to bang our heads against the wall (my monk and his paladin, both DPS) in the SoO LFR's. Immerseus 1 shot, Protectors 1 shot, Norushen was a 3 shot as we had to explain to people that killing the adds was a good thing to do, Sha was 1 shot. Then we went into the 2nd wing. Galakras was 3 attempts as the first 2 were Tank issues (one of them not going up in the tower and the second going in the Tower before the Demo was destroyed). We kicked that Tank and the next attempt he died. Juggernaut was 1 shot, Shaman were 2 shot, Nazgrim was 2 shot. It was a pretty good run overall. Much different than the previous week.

    I have noticed ToT LFR's can be very volatile compared to SoO. A whole lot of unnecessary negativity. I just try and ignore it and do what I have to do.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    For some reason tanks in LFR like to take 5 minutes between trash pulls before Dark Shamans. I mean, are you shitting me?
    That's because there's a stacking debuff that needs to drop off between pulls if they want to successfully tank. The more you know...

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    But the burdens are a lot harder to get than LFR items no?
    No.

    Both are RNG, LFR is one chance a week per boss to get loot, you have a chance at getting a Burden every time you participate in killing a rarespawn on the isle, you have a chance to get a Burden every time you open a loot cache chest (the gambling "minigame" with the Hozen in the cave), and you can guarantee a Burden every 50k Timeless Coins, plus you get 1 guaranteed burden from a zone chest.

    Assuming efficient Timeless Coin farm, it would not be hard to farm 50k coins for one Burden per day- Ghost Ship and Evermaw spawn every hour and reward nearly 1k coins each, so that's 2k coins per hour from them alone. Filling in the time between Ship+Maw spawns by killing the Ordos yaungol that spawn from repeatedly using Scroll of Challenge, especially in a 5-man group, was netting my guildies and I about 3k coins per hour at our kill rate.

    So, that's one guaranteed Burden in approximately 10 hours, with a chance to get a Burden every time you kill Ship or Evermaw. Burdens can drop from the yaungol as well. So, assuming you do this each day, you can get 7 Burdens a week, minimum, fairly easily.

    LFR, on the other hand, is about a 3-6 hour investment once per week at current clear times and does not guarantee a loot drop or upgrade.
    Sure, it takes less time, but it's probably for less reward and certainly for less reliable reward.

    I spend a few hours a day on the Timeless Isle, and I've gotten in excess of 10-15 Burdens on a single character since 5.4 launched. I've done LFR every week on that same character, and I've gotten 2 pieces of loot so far.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Ugum View Post
    Then, me and a friend decided to bang our heads against the wall (my monk and his paladin, both DPS) in the SoO LFR's. Immerseus 1 shot, Protectors 1 shot, Norushen was a 3 shot as we had to explain to people that killing the adds was a good thing to do, Sha was 1 shot. Then we went into the 2nd wing. Galakras was 3 attempts as the first 2 were Tank issues (one of them not going up in the tower and the second going in the Tower before the Demo was destroyed). We kicked that Tank and the next attempt he died. Juggernaut was 1 shot, Shaman were 2 shot, Nazgrim was 2 shot. It was a pretty good run overall. Much different than the previous week.
    I'm pretty sure that the SoO LFR bosses. We were failing big time on Nazgrim but his axes never came out this week. The first week I tried it we were correctly handling 3/4 of his rage mechanics and the axes were still out from 15 seconds on.

  17. #397
    Deleted
    Get used to it because Blizzard mostly only listen to the noobs because they are the majority.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooboy View Post
    Which is all well and good, but how?

    How do you know if someone is gemmed badly? and more to the point, do they know they're gemmed badly?
    Gemmed badly: no gem at all in a socket, gem for a useless stat, gem from a previous expansion. That wasn't hard, was it?

    Granted, this doesn't identify ALL ways gemming can be suboptimal. But perfect is the enemy of good enough. Blizzard could improve things greatly with systems that aren't 100% solutions.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Woop Woop View Post
    ----when LFR is challenging people complain that they are wiping too much
    ----when LFR is too easy it's "free" loot and should be removed

    ...what?
    The issue with the current state of lfr is people's expectations are that from 5.3, where queues where 30min or under and the entire wing would take 1 - 1.5 hours to complete. Now queue times are extremely long (an hour wait is fairly common for me as dps) and you can spend and hour or more on one boss. My guild cleared 3 bosses in normal in the time my lfr group downed one boss. People rage leave after a wipe in lfr and the requeue mini game gets played over and over.

    If blizz had made 5.2 & 5.3 more alt friendly lfr would be in a better position than it is now, people would know how to play their alts and there wouldnt be the welfare loot from Timeless Isle fooling people into thinking they are ready for lfr. People are messing up, afking, under performing and just plain being obstacles to those who really only have lfr as a viable "raiding" experience.

    Blizzard needs to offer those players persistant enough to remain in lfr an increase in loot drop chance, similar to stacks of determination you get stacks of lucky loot.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Blizzard both bumped down LFR ilvl considerably and tuned LFR harshly. Coincidentally they also introduced Flex at the same time.

    It doesn't take a genius.
    Ding. Ding. We have a winner! Between being the first month of new wings, as well as the above mentioned, LFR is worse than usual now.
    Stay salty my friends.

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