Shaodwcraft telling me to drop lots of haste/mastery for crit

[bOOURNS]

Hi,

I recently got my 2pc for mut spec and i know 2pc increases the value of crit, but shadowcraft "wants" me to drop my haste and mastery down to 7700 and 7450 in favor of 8700 crit. (basically pulling 5-6k stats from both into crit)

Should i be following this? Doesn't seem right to have haste and mastery that low.

Thanks

(sorry if this is a repeat topic that someone else may have talked about)

[Datenshi]

yeah with the 2pc T16 shadowcraft values all stats around equally so the less you have of a certain stat(in this case crit) the more valuable shadowcraft thinks it is.
when you hit the optimize refrge button in shadowcraftt you'll see that the values will switch again so basicly you can do whatever stat priority you want:P

i'm still a major fan of the good old master>haste>crit though ^_^

[Carp The Fish]

IMO, he priority that's going to yield the best results (it's not possible in current Shadowcraft build) is Mastery > Crit = Haste. Mastery is still going to be your best DPS stat for most of the Siege fights since there's a lot of movement going on, while Haste and Crit are still going to boost each other's value.

In my opinion, the way I want to reforge atm is to get Haste to a comfortable level (I usually stop at around 11.95 regen), then stack Mastery and Crit. As I get more gear, I'm going to be able to grab more Mastery/Crit while keeping that level of Haste. That's how I've become comfortable playing my Rogue, and it seems to work pretty well for my numbers.

[Squirl]

yeah with the 2pc T16 shadowcraft values all stats around equally so the less you have of a certain stat(in this case crit) the more valuable shadowcraft thinks it is.
when you hit the optimize refrge button in shadowcraftt you'll see that the values will switch again so basicly you can do whatever stat priority you want:P

i'm still a major fan of the good old master>haste>crit though ^_^

This doesn't mean do whatever stat priority you want. There's still an optimal balance. This is because our stats scale off each other very well and when they're valued so closely, priorities can shift inside a reforge.

The reason ShC will reforge differently from subsequent auto-reforges is that it snapshots the EP values at the moment you press the button, then it does all the reforges with those static values, then it calculates EP vaues again (which often end up different because reforging can move around a ton of stats and again, our stats scale really well with each other). To optimize around this, you should:

1. Hit Auto-Reforge a few times and start from the highest DPS set
2. Check your EP values
3. Reforge your lowest EP stats to your highest EP stats; keep checking this as you change them
4. Change gems in the same manner
5. Keep doing this until any other changes cause you to lose damage

Usually your EP values will end up very close together (not your ratings; it's not likely you'll have ~9k rating across the board, but your EPs could all end up at ~1.3 EP with 7k, 5k, and 9k rating for instance). Also, this changes as you get more heroic gear and crit starts to pull away from the other stats more and more until there's no more balancing and just crit.

The old ToT argument of mastery being more consistent than haste (which was valid at the time) no longer applies. The only RPPM mechanics haste affects now are the meta gem and the cloak, both of which have a very high proc rate. It no longer affects trinkets which had a very low proc rate, which meant you could easily still get screwed on procs inside the duration of a regular fight. So, the effect of haste on RPPM is no longer inflated by decimal increase in procs that only helps in a percentage of pulls (4.2 vs 4 procs per fight only helps you when that .2 turns into 5 procs in a fight but ShC was valuing it as if you would always get .2 procs).

The other argument for mastery over haste was mastery gave you more benefit during downtime. I can't find the post now, but someone mathed out haste vs mastery during downtime. The conclusion was that in most circumstances, haste is actually a better stat when you have several seconds of downtime.

Hopefully that long ramble actually makes sense. The tl;dr is there's no reason to ignore ShC's recommendations now.


To the OP, it might seem strange dropping that many stats into crit, but the 2pc is pretty awesome and directly scales with crit. This doesn't make crit outright better (see above), but it makes it better than it has been the rest of the expansion. What are your reservations with a crit build?

[Imperatrix]

Single target crit excels, right now with 2PC T-16 but ur aoe will suck. so honestly its a a fight by fight basis if ur min/maxing. otherwise haste = mastery > crit for aoe situation type fights yada yada.

[Datenshi]

This doesn't mean do whatever stat priority you want. There's still an optimal balance. This is because our stats scale off each other very well and when they're valued so closely, priorities can shift inside a reforge.

The reason ShC will reforge differently from subsequent auto-reforges is that it snapshots the EP values at the moment you press the button, then it does all the reforges with those static values, then it calculates EP vaues again (which often end up different because reforging can move around a ton of stats and again, our stats scale really well with each other). To optimize around this, you should:

1. Hit Auto-Reforge a few times and start from the highest DPS set
2. Check your EP values
3. Reforge your lowest EP stats to your highest EP stats; keep checking this as you change them
4. Change gems in the same manner
5. Keep doing this until any other changes cause you to lose damage

Usually your EP values will end up very close together (not your ratings; it's not likely you'll have ~9k rating across the board, but your EPs could all end up at ~1.3 EP with 7k, 5k, and 9k rating for instance). Also, this changes as you get more heroic gear and crit starts to pull away from the other stats more and more until there's no more balancing and just crit.

The old ToT argument of mastery being more consistent than haste (which was valid at the time) no longer applies. The only RPPM mechanics haste affects now are the meta gem and the cloak, both of which have a very high proc rate. It no longer affects trinkets which had a very low proc rate, which meant you could easily still get screwed on procs inside the duration of a regular fight. So, the effect of haste on RPPM is no longer inflated by decimal increase in procs that only helps in a percentage of pulls (4.2 vs 4 procs per fight only helps you when that .2 turns into 5 procs in a fight but ShC was valuing it as if you would always get .2 procs).

The other argument for mastery over haste was mastery gave you more benefit during downtime. I can't find the post now, but someone mathed out haste vs mastery during downtime. The conclusion was that in most circumstances, haste is actually a better stat when you have several seconds of downtime.

Hopefully that long ramble actually makes sense. The tl;dr is there's no reason to ignore ShC's recommendations now.


To the OP, it might seem strange dropping that many stats into crit, but the 2pc is pretty awesome and directly scales with crit. This doesn't make crit outright better (see above), but it makes it better than it has been the rest of the expansion. What are your reservations with a crit build?

thank you for that explanation, was quite enlightening to read imo

[bOOURNS]

This doesn't mean do whatever stat priority you want. There's still an optimal balance. This is because our stats scale off each other very well and when they're valued so closely, priorities can shift inside a reforge.

The reason ShC will reforge differently from subsequent auto-reforges is that it snapshots the EP values at the moment you press the button, then it does all the reforges with those static values, then it calculates EP vaues again (which often end up different because reforging can move around a ton of stats and again, our stats scale really well with each other). To optimize around this, you should:

1. Hit Auto-Reforge a few times and start from the highest DPS set
2. Check your EP values
3. Reforge your lowest EP stats to your highest EP stats; keep checking this as you change them
4. Change gems in the same manner
5. Keep doing this until any other changes cause you to lose damage

Usually your EP values will end up very close together (not your ratings; it's not likely you'll have ~9k rating across the board, but your EPs could all end up at ~1.3 EP with 7k, 5k, and 9k rating for instance). Also, this changes as you get more heroic gear and crit starts to pull away from the other stats more and more until there's no more balancing and just crit.

The old ToT argument of mastery being more consistent than haste (which was valid at the time) no longer applies. The only RPPM mechanics haste affects now are the meta gem and the cloak, both of which have a very high proc rate. It no longer affects trinkets which had a very low proc rate, which meant you could easily still get screwed on procs inside the duration of a regular fight. So, the effect of haste on RPPM is no longer inflated by decimal increase in procs that only helps in a percentage of pulls (4.2 vs 4 procs per fight only helps you when that .2 turns into 5 procs in a fight but ShC was valuing it as if you would always get .2 procs).

The other argument for mastery over haste was mastery gave you more benefit during downtime. I can't find the post now, but someone mathed out haste vs mastery during downtime. The conclusion was that in most circumstances, haste is actually a better stat when you have several seconds of downtime.

Hopefully that long ramble actually makes sense. The tl;dr is there's no reason to ignore ShC's recommendations now.


To the OP, it might seem strange dropping that many stats into crit, but the 2pc is pretty awesome and directly scales with crit. This doesn't make crit outright better (see above), but it makes it better than it has been the rest of the expansion. What are your reservations with a crit build?

Thanks for your reply and everyone else who has also replied.

I don't have reservations against a crit build, i just wanted to make sure i should be following what ShC is suggesting. I'll see how that goes.

Thanks

[planktin]

i keep high haste build to make swapping between combat and assassination easier, otherwise i would hard reforge crit