Subtetly openings

[Psychowolf]

An Evis with FW will always do more damage than a Rupture cast at that point, no matter what buffs you have up. Without 4T15, there's no reason to stack Shadow Blades with Shadow Dance, as you already are dealing true damage thanks to FW.

Personally I prefer opening with Garrote->Hemo, so that when I Hemo it's already SV buffed and FW buffed so you get a Hemo that is moderately stronger than just straight opening with Hemo (and thus a Hemo DoT that ticks that much stronger as well). Garrote also does more average damage than Hemo with no SV/FW up as well, so you gain a bit more damage by opening with Garrote and Hemo after.

[T18Z]

An Evis with FW will always do more damage than a Rupture cast at that point, no matter what buffs you have up. Without 4T15, there's no reason to stack Shadow Blades with Shadow Dance, as you already are dealing true damage thanks to FW.

Personally I prefer opening with Garrote->Hemo, so that when I Hemo it's already SV buffed and FW buffed so you get a Hemo that is moderately stronger than just straight opening with Hemo (and thus a Hemo DoT that ticks that much stronger as well). Garrote also does more average damage than Hemo with no SV/FW up as well, so you gain a bit more damage by opening with Garrote and Hemo after.

Shadowcraft directly contradicts you. It states it's a fair dps loss to not use SB with shadow dance, most likely because one of the key aspects of SB is the increased combo point generation.

In regards to opener, I ignore garrote, SC shows no difference in dps vs ambush in opener, I open with prem > ambush > hemo > SnD > Evis > 2nd Evis (if FW up), if not, Rupture in it's place, pref with a snapshop of the last sec of trinket procs. I use the night stalker talent.

I also prioritize evis > rupture the majority of the time when FW is up, as long as it doesn't lead to longer than 2-3 seconds of downtime. If it will, I'll apply rupture instead. My only gripe is it feels kinda crappy to not be using SB or ShD with all trinkets up at the start, but I can understand why maintaining optimal FW up-time takes priority.

[Deleted]

I cannot magage to open with Garrote + Double Ambush, with or without Energetic Recovery. Do I do something wrong, or is my haste too low? My ilvl is 551 and haste rating is 12465.

[Coldkil]

I open with premed-snd *pull* garrote-ambush-rupture-hemo then standard cycle.

Basically i use garrote only at start to get both FW and SV up. Another question - do you sub rogues use garrote during Shadow Dance? Or isn't worth to use?

[Sesshou]

Shadowcraft directly contradicts you. It states it's a fair dps loss to not use SB with shadow dance, most likely because one of the key aspects of SB is the increased combo point generation.

I don't know if SC is wrong or whatever, but your reasoning doesn't make sense. SB will generate less cp during dance because your optimal cp builder is more expensive. Now that is a valid point to stack it with FW.

Though do remember SC just averages your trinkets. Using SB during the opening FW instead of later with dance means your trinkets will for sure be up for most of it. You may get a proc during dance later on (assuming rppm trinkets) but you will use your first dance long before you get any sort of proc chance boost from bad luck protection.

[Kentii]

I open with premed-snd *pull* garrote-ambush-rupture-hemo then standard cycle.

Basically i use garrote only at start to get both FW and SV up. Another question - do you sub rogues use garrote during Shadow Dance? Or isn't worth to use?

i actually never use garrote. i open with hemo+premed due to the lower energy cost of hemo compared to garrote and it provides the same debuff w/ glyph of HV. and i only shadow dance/vanish when i have hemo/snd/rupture running to the point where they wont fall of while dancing/ambushing in vanish.

[mongoose6]

I open with premed-snd *pull* garrote-ambush-rupture-hemo then standard cycle.

Basically i use garrote only at start to get both FW and SV up. Another question - do you sub rogues use garrote during Shadow Dance? Or isn't worth to use?

It's not worth using during Shadow dance. It's only used at the opening in order to quickly apply both FW and SV. Once you start shadowdancing, SV should already be up via rupture or hemo.

Edit-The exception here bieng an add switch. I.e. conveyor belt duty, I open on the weapons with garrote from shadow dance to get them down asap.

[Meejum]

i actually never use garrote. i open with hemo+premed due to the lower energy cost of hemo compared to garrote and it provides the same debuff w/ glyph of HV. and i only shadow dance/vanish when i have hemo/snd/rupture running to the point where they wont fall of while dancing/ambushing in vanish.

The problem of opening with hemo is that is doesn't get FW up, whereas garotte does.


During FW is also a good time to reapply hemo, since the initial strike (and therefore the % of the subsequent bleed) is from weapon damage, which obviously benefits from FW armor pen.

[Avengerx]

Is it possible to merge this with this topic? http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...tetly-openings

Not that because it's mine ,but because both have quite good information considering openers I think.

Yes. -Kael

[Squirl]

Why is everyone using Subterfuge? ShC has Nightstalker ahead for me. It's only by 112 DPS, but it's also easier to use optimally. SF is only ~130 more DPS lower as well.

• Nightstalker -0
• Subterfuge -112.8
• Shadow Focus -246.3

I feel like I might be missing something. Is this result fairly unique to my gear? Is ShC's modeling of these talents known to be off? Or have people just stuck with Subterfuge because it has traditionally been the best?

[mongoose6]

Why is everyone using Subterfuge? ShC has Nightstalker ahead for me. It's only by 112 DPS, but it's also easier to use optimally. SF is only ~130 more DPS lower as well.

• Nightstalker -0
• Subterfuge -112.8
• Shadow Focus -246.3

I feel like I might be missing something. Is this result fairly unique to my gear? Is ShC's modeling of these talents known to be off? Or have people just stuck with Subterfuge because it has traditionally been the best?

I think much of it will depend on the amount of haste you have. The more crap you can fit into subterfuge the better it will be. Also, you can pull multi-openers with subterfuge more frequently than with nightstalker. I.e. Garote both dark shamans, ambush one, then hit both with a hemo while both are under the effects of FW and SV.

I'm not sure if Nighstalker applies to attacks made during Shadowdance. If so, then I can see why it would pull ahead.

[Squirl]

I think much of it will depend on the amount of haste you have. The more crap you can fit into subterfuge the better it will be. Also, you can pull multi-openers with subterfuge more frequently than with nightstalker. I.e. Garote both dark shamans, ambush one, then hit both with a hemo while both are under the effects of FW and SV.

I'm not sure if Nighstalker applies to attacks made during Shadowdance. If so, then I can see why it would pull ahead.

It could be haste. Mine is particularly low for my ilvl (~10k haste/565 ilvl).

NS isn't applied to Shadow Dance afaik.

[Daerio]

Why is everyone using Subterfuge? ShC has Nightstalker ahead for me. It's only by 112 DPS, but it's also easier to use optimally. SF is only ~130 more DPS lower as well.

• Nightstalker -0
• Subterfuge -112.8
• Shadow Focus -246.3

I feel like I might be missing something. Is this result fairly unique to my gear? Is ShC's modeling of these talents known to be off? Or have people just stuck with Subterfuge because it has traditionally been the best?

Are you using glyph of vanish? That makes a big difference in simcraft for me between the T1 talents.

[Sesshou]

Are you using glyph of vanish? That makes a big difference in simcraft for me between the T1 talents.

Does the vanish glyph actually increase the duration of subterfuge though? The vanish effect you get an extra 2 seconds of just prevents stealth from breaking from damage so I don't see how thats a dps altering glyph.

[Maelstrom51]

Does the vanish glyph actually increase the duration of subterfuge though? The vanish effect you get an extra 2 seconds of just prevents stealth from breaking from damage so I don't see how thats a dps altering glyph.

I just tested it a few days ago because I was confused as well. It increased Subterfuge or Master of Subtlety, I don't remember which.

[Kentii]

There's actually a lot of talking about using rupture when FW is up, and it seems that, if you have ur hemo glyphed, you can delay ur rupture. Eviscerate on FW does more damage than rupture, but when FW is down, rupture does overall more damage than eviscerate. I still don't know if using shadowblade with shadow dance.

Some ppl are saying that you could also open with garrote, but I prefer getting SV with Hemo, and rupture out of FW.

/10 chars.

[Hntr]

Does the vanish glyph actually increase the duration of subterfuge though? The vanish effect you get an extra 2 seconds of just prevents stealth from breaking from damage so I don't see how thats a dps altering glyph.

In some cases yes. Vanish, having then a 5 sec duration outlasts subterfuge and because of that you get a second subterfuge. But you pretty much have to pool some energy before casting vanish, because subterfuge starts after your first attack, but if you wait 2 seconds in vanish before casting, you only get one subterfuge. So if you attack instantly after you press vanish, then you get 2 subterfuge.

Master of Subtlety is always active when invis (not shadowdance though) and some seconds after leaving invisibility

[Jiigeri]

Yeah, been thinking about that too. I might try that out, but a good snappedshot rupture deals a shitton of dmg, because most trinkets proc at the beginning of the fight, so thats something to think about too.
I would use Shadowblades ASAP (so with openers, because of the 10% dmg buff when stealthed, which you don't gain during shadowdance (or i've been looking wrong) and active trinkets)
Ofc i use glyphed hemo.

This is definately something I'd like some information about, haven't been able to figure this out yet. Having potion and both trinkets up for the pull very often results in very, very high rupture damage (for hc juggernaut as a example, I've had 105-120k rupture ticks for the first application). We didn't have that many pulls on the boss after I went subtlety so I had just a few tests but for those I really didn't see that big of a difference between only eviscerates during FW and having that buffed up rupture ticking. If anything, having that big rupture up seemt to be a bit more reliable damage at the pull, but as been said I didn't have too many chances to test this out. I will propably do quite a few tests on dummies soon (tm).

Might be worth to mention that eviscerates have also done very, very high crits during that initial burst and might very well be priority over rupture (highest crits were a tad over 1 million for hc juggernaut. Those kinda hurt with the multistrike trinket that also procced for nearly 400k if I got lucky).

[Avengerx]

So if (need some numbers for this) evis during fw outdamages rupture, then does that mean that during the initial, optimally 40 sec fw uptime we only have to keep glyphed hemo up for sv and snd, and just spam eviscerates?

[Fluorescent0]

The fact that it will be ticking after the procs have expired is misleading, you should consider rupture as a big damage ability that does its damage frontloaded with a cooldown as long as its duration to analyze such situations (as in, we're already assuming it will last its full duration). The difference between casting a rupture and an eviscerate, seen from this new perspective, is nothing else than the old good problem of which does the most damage.