DPS/HPS, the main antagonist of Fun?

[IceStationZebra]

With the arrival of “the Silly Season” with the last major patch and we now wait on the next expansion, plus I’m kind of a little burnt out on WoW (hey , 11 max level alts, one of each class) and I took the WoW advice to try other MMO’s.

Tried a few, and just could not stomach once again the kill pigs in the hope a liver with a .0001% drop rate would drop so I could finish the quest. If I’m going to do that, I’ll do that in WoW.

Finally tried a MMO that had bad reviews. It was actually a lot of fun and nothing like what all the doom and gloomers were saying in their reviews. Anyway, I finally got a character high enough to do this other MMO’s version of dungeons using their LFG. What a difference, it was Fun. No whinny complaints. Just do your job and have fun. There seemed to be a “all for one, one for all” attitude by the LFG players.

The big difference is there is no way to know your DPS/HPS while in the instance. I just wonder if that would help WoW. Knowing DPS/HPS is a great tool in a MMo, but what if the DPS/HPS data was only limited to target dummies so you could work out rotation/abilities and disabled everywhere else? Maybe this is the direction WoW is heading, work things out on the dummies (remember the raid test dummies?), test it in the proving grounds, have fun in the dungeons and raids.

Thoughts?

[LoLcano]

well how else could u find the slacker when u get wiped for 10 time on same boss?

[Ailylia]

The ability to use addons and process data how players want to is one of WoW's greatest strengths and lends toward the most competitive of high end raiding. It's not for everyone, so there are other MMOs out there. WoW is open and honest about most of its numbers. Theorycrafting makes the game stronger, not weaker. As you say, DPS/HPS meters are a tool and although it can be misused just because someone made you feel bad in an LFR for bad numbers doesn't mean the game isn't better off for being more technical.

Best bet, if you want a group that doesn't care about those numbers and just want to run instances where everyone just "does their job" and doesn't worry about numbers, then find a guild full of like minded individuals and have fun.

[Radio]

Some of us do actually like the numbers game in video games that offer it, I know I was optimising myself well before I knew addons existed for this game.

[OzoAndIndi]

Finally tried a MMO that had bad reviews.

Aside from not being able to see how self and others are doing, what's their population like? Is it low enough that they actually appreciate the help and interaction of other players?

[Deleted]

No. It's way less fun if you can't figure out why you wipe when you have 7 drooling retards in your group that are contributing as much as an individual player.

[Etrigan]

Definitely not. The competitive nature of PVE on a personal level, as well as team level is, the biggest reason I think WoW is miles ahead of other MMO's. I would not play this game if there was no way to see your output.

If you could log, but not see it live in-game (somehow), I could live with it. Though I think even that is completely unnecessary and would be a horrible thing for the game.

[Forgettable]

DPS/HPS is a tool. How people use that tool determine whether it is good or bad. Personally the DPS meter is a lot of fun to me because people are always trying to outdps me (But the rarely do, muahahaha!). In guild raids/pug flex raids, dps meters encourage other people to improve. In random dungeons, it seems to be a tool for people to be jerks to others, and for low dps players to get mad that they're not performing adequately.

[yjmark]

I think it would be pretty awesome to remove the ability to know DPS/HPS. It would definitely reduce finger pointing by a large margin, and force people to work together to accomplish things (lots of people seem to spend time finger pointing instead of trying to fix the real problems). It would also discourage people to pick specs for an additional 1% damage. Instead, they could pick specs they enjoy playing.

Blizz, of course, would still have access to all that information, and can do all the necessary theory crafting.

The only caveat would be that Blizz needs to get off their butts to proactively adjust things better. Currently, most of their balancing adjustments seem to come from the playerbase feedback. This feedback would essentially disappear unless it was insanely out of balance. So without a solid feedback mechanism on balance, I think that removing DPS/HPS visiblity would not work well.

TLR - neat idea. Tough to implement successfully.

- - - Updated - - -

No. It's way less fun if you can't figure out why you wipe when you have 7 drooling retards in your group that are contributing as much as an individual player.

in my experience - a majority of the time, if you have really bad players, DPS/HPS is not the issue. You don't generally run into enrage timers. They are usually wiping/causing wipes due to mechanics. So DPS/HPS meters would rarely help.

[Etrigan]

DPS/HPS is a tool. How people use that tool determine whether it is good or bad. Personally the DPS meter is a lot of fun to me because people are always trying to outdps me (But the rarely do, muahahaha!). In guild raids/pug flex raids, dps meters encourage other people to improve. In random dungeons, it seems to be a tool for people to be jerks to others, and for low dps players to get mad that they're not performing adequately.

I don't know if this is a US only problem or what, but I keep hearing about "jerks" insulting people's dps/play in random/LFG groups. I have quite literally, never seen that before.

OT: Not that I think it would be wrong to tell people off for holding back the group. When you see someone doing 40k in an LFR which requires 490+ ilvl to join, by all means kick them, bash them etc. Because the only reason that is happening, is that these people are lazy/afk and expect to be carried all the time - they aren't just bad. They're wasting your time. I personally never do this as it's not socially acceptable behavior (at least in EU), but it wouldn't be the worst thing if we as a community decided not to tolerate intentionally horrible play.

[kamuimac]

if it wasnt for recount/skada/gearscore/itlv people would eventually found out another way to judge player by his performance it would be just a matter of time. same will eventually happen in others mmos too.

[Raikh]

While dps/hps really help making things out especially considering requirements for heroic bosses like currently malkorok i like it for other reasons, too.

When I've seen a boss multiple times, probably even multiple times per week the boss itself gets pretty uninteresting and i care more about numbers. How can i do more dmg, which tactic provides more dmg and faster kills. Do i get rankings and how do i perform comparing myself to the rest of the players of all classes and my class/spec.
It keeps me entertained for a while longer and makes getting gear more awesome than just the boss fight itself would.

[mickybrighteyes]

Hiding dps/hps wouldn't really solve anything. It would only make players use even weirder excuses for their kicks.

[SodiumChloride]

In a way yes.

Meters create a "measuring up" culture, inevitably leading to "keep up with the Jones" mentality, resulting in disgruntled players.

You spend a heck a lot of time worrying about your performance when you should just be doing your best (to your knowledge) and enjoying the game.

This "measuring up" culture has more or less destroyed what it means to play a RPG. The sense of adventure and exploration, is buried by epeen measurements and accusations of being "bad".

[Giscoicus]

I don't know if this is a US only problem or what, but I keep hearing about "jerks" insulting people's dps/play in random/LFG groups. I have quite literally, never seen that before.

OT: Not that I think it would be wrong to tell people off for holding back the group. When you see someone doing 40k in an LFR which requires 490+ ilvl to join, by all means kick them, bash them etc. Because the only reason that is happening, is that these people are lazy/afk and expect to be carried all the time - they aren't just bad. They're wasting your time. I personally never do this as it's not socially acceptable behavior (at least in EU), but it wouldn't be the worst thing if we as a community decided not to tolerate intentionally horrible play.

Dont you know basic expectations to contribute to a group=elitist-jerk trying to ruin others playtime?

WoW is a single player game. I can play how I want and you just are a bully for telling me to change when I'm in a group. <---this is what people actually believe.

[Redpanda]

dps is the funnest thing int he game. when you chug your pot, blood fury, rapid fire, all your trinket procs and rentaki is stacked up to 10 and you multi shot times a million and you get back to back to back to back cloak procs and your ss is ticking on a a bunch of stuff nicely stacked and number everywhere I get all the happy feels, maybe even a chub. Being competitive is fun if your class isnt "top" it makes it more fun when you play to the max and you do better than what people expect. PS: fuck it scumbag when you can

[Dunker]

if it wasnt for recount/skada/gearscore/itlv people would eventually found out another way to judge player by his performance it would be just a matter of time. same will eventually happen in others mmos too.

I think it basically boils down to this. In a game where people must work as a team to meet certain benchmarks to conquer a specific encounter, players will always find a way to simply quantify/qualify those benchmarks. It's human nature to try to boil things down as basically as possible, it's why there's a thread on the first page titled "Bad dps, good listener vs. Good dps, bad listener" when in reality that's a gross over-simplification of the options.

Like many tools of judgement, it all depends on who's hands it falls in. Considering anyone (within reason) can download these tools and use them, they can be used for dangerous purposes. Remember, competitive people will always be harsh, things like meters just give their judgement quantitative support.

On the subject of whether or not it ruins the fun of it all, well I guess you can take a look at this thread and see that's a subjective question and one which you probably already have the answer to. I'd suggest a guild or team of like-minded people, or a single player game, personally.

[PrairieChicken]

There would be no reason to play dps if meters don't exist.

It ruins your fun only if you are terribad slacker.

[Blueobelisk]

What kind of madness is a game where you don't compete against the 16 other DPS to see which of you is the strongest? Or to know which person needs to get the fuck out of the raid needs to be given a priority on gear so they can do better?

I wouldn't play a game without a recount meter.

[Ferocity]

DPS meters were quite frown upon in earlier WoW days. Then with plague of awful raid design, which started with SWP and new lead game systems designer, the whole game steadily started to go down.

HPS is different talk. If people brag about having high HPS and healing done, those are 99% meter padders. Those who spam AoE heals when everyone is already at 100% HP, and so on. I remember we had "low-HPS" priest, who healed through all t9-t11 heroics but had to quit due to rl, and "leet-HPS" paladin "best healer of server", who struggled to heal DS normals, but had attitude as if he is god of healing.

What kind of madness is a game where you don't compete against the 16 other DPS to see which of you is the strongest? Or to know which person needs to get the fuck out of the raid needs to be given a priority on gear so they can do better?

Some people play game to kill bosses, have fun with friends, achieve various in-game goals. Competition with other players was usually viewed under PvP angle. However, people with low self-esteem like to compete in completely irrelevant things, too bad that it became a standard in WoW.

I wouldn't play a game without a recount meter.

So you are saying you wouldn't play any game, unless it is outright WoW-clone? Too bad for you, you miss on 99,99% of all the games ever made.