"540+ have 14/14 Normal Experience" for Flex, seriously.

[Snorkles]

The posters of MMO-C are so fickle it's almost laughable.

It's perfectly acceptable for someone to make a pre-made group that overgears and consequently facerolls content for gear. (Which I agree with, before anyone jumps down my throat)

It's absolutely unacceptable for a matchmaking group to faceroll any content (which doesn't even happen until the average ilvl of the population shifts up - go figure).

[Deleted]

Seems I am not the one who think these requirement are too much for Flex.

[Khorm]

True pugs have to be more wary of failure then guilds. A few wipes and you will see people start to leave and they're usually the better players. A minimum ilvl of 540 is good as well because it tends to weed out the Timeless Isle Burden of Eternity crowd.

[Shakari]

True pugs have to be more wary of failure then guilds. A few wipes and you will see people start to leave and they're usually the better players. A minimum ilvl of 540 is good as well because it tends to weed out the Timeless Isle Burden of Eternity crowd.

The obvious statement your missing is if you have an average Ilvl of 540 or more then you don;t need anything from flex as thats what it drops.. so the point of having that Ilvl requirement is pointless.

Ilvl 520 is more than fine really, After all Normal SoO is based around starting with Ilvl 522 from normal ToT why would you need more than the normal lvl gear requirement for something much easier is beyond me

- - - Updated - - -

Seems I am not the one who think these requirement are too much for Flex.

For once I find myself agreeing with mr street whole heartedly what he says is very true.

[Deleted]

Seems I am not the one who think these requirement are too much for Flex.

I don't think 525 in a random group is overkill.

We do a Saturday night flex guild run. Everyone who signs up on calender is invited and we never kick anyone for performance reasons. We usually end up with 2-3 main raiders on their mains, 3-4 on alts and around 10 more casuals. Most raiders are between 510-530 ilvl. Even though we are on teamspeak and we have people who know the fights very well, on some bosses (particularly nazgrim) we end up wiping more than when we did our progression on normals. Having people who do 80k dps can't execute mechanics properly is like doing progression all over again. And I don't even trust some of our main raiders to perform adequately on alts, since some play them very poorly.

It's ok for me because it's a guild run and it's fun chatting over TS and everything, but I have no intention of joining a random PuG with little requirements and having that situation arise.

PS. Obviously a skill check is better than a gear check. But gear can be checked more easily.

[Deleted]

I don't think 525 in a random group is overkill.

I am not Blizzard, that's why I asked the question.
Also, your testomony made me remember what happened at the beggining of MoP when a lot of people complained of being forced to do LFR so they could do normal raid. Blizzard told them that their normal raids could be donne in heroic blue gears and people just need to follow the mechanics (that was posted on mmo champion)

Only Blizzard know the truth about Flex with what min requirements in can be done.
But I do agree with OP that asking 540+ ilvl with 14/14 exp from normal raid is too much for Flex.

[Khorm]

The obvious statement your missing is if you have an average Ilvl of 540 or more then you don;t need anything from flex as thats what it drops.. so the point of having that Ilvl requirement is pointless.

Ilvl 520 is more than fine really, After all Normal SoO is based around starting with Ilvl 522 from normal ToT why would you need more than the normal lvl gear requirement for something much easier is beyond me

My ilvl is 563, my 522 chest however is not above 540. I like to do flex raids on my offspec as well. It's fun and gives me a view of the fights outside of my raid spec even with the reduced mechanics.

But basically we're all equating ilvl to skill has that is the only indicator we have to go off. I never knew people this bad existed, 60k DPS and 30k HPS. These people are not playing the game right and at the moment there is no in game resource to tell them that. Punishment for not playing games right usually ends in failure however in WoW outside of the raiding environment you can get away with it. Now these people are coming into flex from LFR, which is not raiding, and are hitting their first raiding experience with complete strangers in PUGs. They have gone through the whole game without punishment to playing badly. They made it through LFR because of kick reluctance from the raid and kick protection if they even got kicked and because the encounters were so easy there was no need. Now their peers are really in control and can invite and kick who they like and no one wants to carry anyone.

This is a good thing though because only when you are told you are wrong can you learn. These people will learn how to play the game properly and improve their enjoyment of it.

[willemh]

The obvious statement your missing is if you have an average Ilvl of 540 or more then you don;t need anything from flex as thats what it drops.. so the point of having that Ilvl requirement is pointless.

You are aware a fully flex geared player is ~451 ilvl average I hope? Full 448 and a 608 legendary cloak. Any player with 540 ilvl can get many, many upgrades from flex.

My main is 563 ilvl and I can still get significant upgrades from flex (immersus trinket says hello, its a 10k+ dps upgrade for me).

Also gear is not the only reason people do flex. Even for someone who doesnt need gear anymore flex can give achievements and many valor points.

[Yakshamash]

After 8 still pages it's still hard to understand?

Time = Limited
People want to run flex FAST to save TIME
Higher iLvl + experience = faster clear
Fast smooth run and quick easy VP
=Soo much win.

All i see is people being a bit under the requested ilvl and being bitter about it.
It's nice that you have a high Ilvl main, no guarantee you dont suck balls on your alt tho o.o

Let me translate that for you: - Hurry up, I need to go to bed, or my mommy will cancel my subsciption and unplug my computer.

[Louis CK]

Let me translate that for you: - Hurry up, I need to go to bed, or my mommy will cancel my subsciption and unplug my computer.

Are you really saying that the only people who have time constraints are young kids with bedtimes?

[kamuimac]

Let me translate that for you: - Hurry up, I need to go to bed, or my mommy will cancel my subsciption and unplug my computer.

for many people it translate into hurry up becasue i have my significant other/kids/work/going out or milion other better things to do then wipe cause people are incompetent or looking for progress in flex - people have done their progress now they go into flex for quick farm - why is it so hard to realsie and accept that ? dont try to get into farm runs if ur not on farm status and u wont have any problems with itlv requirements. when i pump iron in gym i always admire people who are able to pump like +150/200kg but since i know my limit is 110kg i dont suddenly act like i could do same thing as them cause the weight would probably crush me :P same is with those requirements - dont try to jump over your limits and u wont have any problems with them.
and nothing nothing is stoping u from creating your own group without any kind of requirements -_-

[Baconeggcheese]

I quit back in BC and came back at the very tail end of cata when DS was already heavily nerfed and it was fun trying to get into ANYTHING because of requirements like these. It took A LOT of effort to get into even a normal firelands or DS pug and the ilvl requirement was already above the loot the raid drops which is silly. Having a higher ilvl requirement than what the raid required BEFORE the nerfs after heavy nerfs is just silly silly thinking.


It's no different for pvp either, if you aren't 2600 xp then you have a hell of a time finding an rbg week 1 or 2 outside of peek hours.

But I guess that's the nature of the world, even in the job market you need experience to get experience.

<snip>

[Nobleshield]

I think the issue here, as with any pug, is there are two types of groups:

1) The "smooth run" group that is basically by raiders, for raiders. Either it's a "Gear up your alts for progression" or "I still need Tier/trinket/other drop" but the goal is to make things as painless as possible and outgear as much as possible. This is your group nowadays that want 14/14 achieve and 550+ gear, or in the olden days would be the "LFM ToC25 5.5k gs + achieve or no inv" people who were only running it for Death's Verdict. You're expected to already know what to do.

2) The "we're going to try" group that is closer to what many pugs are, where it's come one, come all let's see how far we can get and have fun doing it without it being serious business. This is the group with lax requirements who aren't concerned with oneshotting everything and are generally treating it like a progression run with explaining fights beforehand and being okay with wipes.

The issue of course comes when you have a Type 2 player trying to join a Type 1 raid, or vice versa as there are different expectations. The bottom line is if you aren't looking for #1 (or rather don't have the achievement and gear they want), then don't join a group advertising itself as #1. I've only started to dabble in OpenRaid and the like but it seems there are more than enough groups for everyone; not all of them are "Must be heroic raiders to attend" rofflestomp Flex in ~2 hours type of groups, in fact from what I've seen most of them are more lenient than that.

[crazyman2]

I don't agree with 14/14 normal, but I could see the required ilevel being higher than expected because the average nonraiding player doesn't do anywhere near the damage they should be and the easiest way to overcome that is to ask for more geared people.

My guild has dps between 515 and 535 and only me and a hunter can break 80k dps (and I've been more than twice that)
I can't make tuesday raids and they ended up switching completely because they can't beat immerseus enrage timer on flex without me. If that's an indication of what an average nonraider is like I wouldn't want people under 540 in my group either

[Azgraal]

How is that different from "LFM CM, last spot, link gold on all"?

That being said, it's stupid and hypocritical.

[Deleted]

I myself only plays with people who have killed BOSSES on normal. No point for me to wipe if people "suck".

I understand the REQ, and I would use it myself.

[Nobleshield]

I myself only plays with people who have killed BOSSES on normal. No point for me to wipe if people "suck".

I understand the REQ, and I would use it myself.

The issue with something like this is that if you are going to random pug, you need to be aware that people might "suck" and you should at least try to help them improve. Wanting a smooth run with experienced people usually gets translated as "run with your guild", not "Pug with outrageous demands". Seeing as the purpose of Flex was to bring back that feel of 10-man raiding in Wrath (easier content for more laid back guilds) it does come off a little hypocritical (but not unexpected as the same thing happened with Wrath 10-mans) to treat content meant to be accessible as exclusive.

I think this is a perfect case where the community will take anything and twist it for their own benefit. Flex was introduced as a lighter-mode raid outlet for guilds that struggled in normal mode, but you see high requirements from people who don't want to take the time to help the community improve.

[Deleted]

I think the issue here, as with any pug, is there are two types of groups:

1) The "smooth run" group that is basically by raiders, for raiders. Either it's a "Gear up your alts for progression" or "I still need Tier/trinket/other drop" but the goal is to make things as painless as possible and outgear as much as possible. This is your group nowadays that want 14/14 achieve and 550+ gear, or in the olden days would be the "LFM ToC25 5.5k gs + achieve or no inv" people who were only running it for Death's Verdict. You're expected to already know what to do.

2) The "we're going to try" group that is closer to what many pugs are, where it's come one, come all let's see how far we can get and have fun doing it without it being serious business. This is the group with lax requirements who aren't concerned with oneshotting everything and are generally treating it like a progression run with explaining fights beforehand and being okay with wipes.

This exactly. If im looking for a flex raid with a better equiped char, im looking for at least 535 groups with xp (14/14 seems a little high though). On these chars i am mostly looking for maybe 1 oder 2 items that could improve me, f.e. trinkets. Why would i want to "progress" through the same content again? I would rather not go, than spending hours for that 1 item, i very likely wont even get. So of course im looking for group 1) oder players that would fit into that group.

now i have chars on both, high and low/middle pop servers. the 540il and 14/14xp i have only ever seen on the high pop server, and it was perhaps 1 out auf 5 groups with that kind of expectations. the low/middle pop servers were happy about every player they could get their hands on (even though its x-realm, not everybody has heard of oq or other tools). i know 2 server are a very low bias, but why would i complain about that 1 group out of 5 that doesnt take me with them? seems to me like someone simply wants to get their epics without having to invest anything, and god forbid, maybe wipe once or twice (maybe even pass out a boss or two). But no, thats not possible i suppose...

[Baconeggcheese]

I think the issue here, as with any pug, is there are two types of groups:

The thing is, if I wanted a insanely smooth run I would just run with guildies. I can do flex with 10 people so I wouldn't even have to get my entire guild to show up. I get maybe 2-3 people to bring mains (we're all around 570ish + / -) and the entire thing would be a joke.

But if I was out in the world pugging people? I would think myself a jackass to expect people to have 540-550 ilvl to do content that drops 540 gear. I'd probably bottom out around 515-520 ilvl because that's actually reasonable to clear the content without being a complete carry. The reason LFR and flex exists is to allow casual players to see the content. I wouldn't expect the bracket of players flex is aimed at to have a 550 ilvl.

See *maybe* there's a couple groups that fit into that group 1 and are pugging for the "smooth run" but the problem is A LOT of mediocre players start adopting that philosophy and turn it into a standard and then it gets ruined for the audience the actual difficulty is aimed at.

[kamuimac]

The issue with something like this is that if you are going to random pug, you need to be aware that people might "suck" and you should at least try to help them improve. Wanting a smooth run with experienced people usually gets translated as "run with your guild", not "Pug with outrageous demands". Seeing as the purpose of Flex was to bring back that feel of 10-man raiding in Wrath (easier content for more laid back guilds) it does come off a little hypocritical (but not unexpected as the same thing happened with Wrath 10-mans) to treat content meant to be accessible as exclusive.

I think this is a perfect case where the community will take anything and twist it for their own benefit. Flex was introduced as a lighter-mode raid outlet for guilds that struggled in normal mode, but you see high requirements from people who don't want to take the time to help the community improve.

i kinda dissagree i rememebr but cant quote exact words from blue quote but it was somewhere along lines that flex is meant for ORGANIZED groups and blizzard dont expect flex to be clearfed by pugs in first few weeks of patch - guess what it is still first few weeks of patch (final wing isnt even out yet) a people already nag that they cant just jump into pugs like into lfr (ye they can only they want to join best of the best and are soo dissapointed when others dont want them and they have to settle for little lower groups) . high itlv is a part of organization of those groups. dont blame community for acting exackly like people act irl.

someone before was mentioning how funny is when in trade people lf 540+ for hc scenarios - well do experiment yourelf but on high pop server set this requirement on prime hours 18-21 and count how many 550/560+ people ull get whispers from in 1-2 minutes because if i do this i dont have to wait longer then 15 seconds to have my group for mega fast vp full.

supply&demand.