What do you want to see done to paladins in the next expansion?

[Vash The Stampede]

So a monk can't fill 3 roles now? Last I checked monk also has very capable tank and melee dps specs. No different than paladin role wise. Shaman has melee and range dps specs. And how about druid? My druid is only level 83 but so far I definitely use different abilities than the other specs. And druid has 5 specs. What melee is a resto druid doing? What melee is a resto shaman doing? Both have melee dps offspecs. Now you are just showing your lack of game knowledge and failure to make any real point. By your logic the only pure range healer should be a priest.

Those classes you mentioned are not very melee oriented like Paladins. It's the Paladins theme, like Druid is to animal forms, and Shamans is to Totems. Sure they can melee, but it's not their theme.

Yea and I remember the amount of crying that happened when abilites that were iconic ret were given as options to the other specs(repentance for instance). And it is very interesting that every iconic paladin ability to you are ret abilities while the abilities from other specs can just get cut and replaced by ret abilities. You really should drop it.

But you're the one complaining about it in this thread. Remember, I was the one who suggested to give Holy a Ret ability. You don't see me saying that "Holy be taking our stuffs".

Shockadins are viable for what? Nothing but questing or content that really doesn't matter. I don't even care about shockadin being viable but don't try to say holy is actually good at pumping out dps when progression content.

I'm not trying to make Holy into a shockadin, but giving them some fun melee tools to heal with. Remember, some (optional) melee tools to heal with. If I were a developer, I would use the next expansion to see if the (optional) melee tools are well enjoyed by players. If so, then I may add more in the next expac, or remove them if they were hated or rarely used.

GC left probably because he got a better job offer. You guys are overthinking it.

Did anyone ever find out what that job offer was?

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In the MMO City of Heroes there was a debuff that reduced the range of the afflicted target's abilities (aka: -Range) by X # of yards for Y # of seconds. I think Ret & Prot could really benefit from a unique gap closer that isn't a sprint. It also would make for some very interesting play in PvP.

Example ability (not saying these are balanced or feasible, just an example of the mechanic):

Paladin:

Near-at-Hand
Magic -Instant
60 sec cooldown
3 Holy Power
40 yard range

The Paladin flashes the target with pure holy light, lowering the target's maximum range on 
all abilities by 50% for 6 seconds.

That is a very unique and original idea. A debuff that forces ranged to get closer to it's target. Would make a decent replacements for a gap closer.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Hmm. Lets think of a PvP scenario with a mage.

Mage is 40yds away and is casting polymorph on you. You cast "Near-at-Hand" & it interrupts his cast because his polymorph is now out of range. If he chooses to cast any spell on you he has to move 20 yards closer. It closes a gap by requiring your target to either come towards you or stop attacking you for 6 seconds. Either way its serving a purpose.

Does it sound more useful in that context?

it sounds like a guranteed 6 second interrupt with a 40 yard cast range.
Not a gap closer, sure as sure.

[Heywoods]

Did anyone ever find out what that job offer was?

He hasn't updated his Linkedin. I can ask a couple friends and see what they know.

[nightfalls]

Remember, I was the one who suggested to give Holy a Ret ability. You don't see me saying that "Holy be taking our stuffs".

And many Rets DO complain about that. What, by the way, is the functional difference between your "30 yard divine storm" and light of dawn?

I'm not trying to make Holy into a shockadin, but giving them some fun melee tools to heal with. Remember, some (optional) melee tools to heal with. If I were a developer, I would use the next expansion to see if the (optional) melee tools are well enjoyed by players. If so, then I may add more in the next expac, or remove them if they were hated or rarely used.

Very rarely is anything actually "optional" in this game.

[Freia]

Those classes you mentioned are not very melee oriented like Paladins. It's the Paladins theme, like Druid is to animal forms, and Shamans is to Totems. Sure they can melee, but it's not their theme.

Why? Because you say so? They have specs that are very much melee, they are just as melee as paladins. Try giving some actual reasoning.

But you're the one complaining about it in this thread. Remember, I was the one who suggested to give Holy a Ret ability. You don't see me saying that "Holy be taking our stuffs".

How exactly am I complaining again? It is not complaining because I disagree with you. You fail to make any real points or give any sort of reasoning in your posts. You basically think every spec of paladin should play the same in the roles they play. And when it is mentioned that other healers also have melee specs and play differently from said specs, you dismiss it as "nothing like paladin" or "not melee-themed", which is pretty laughable.

I'm not trying to make Holy into a shockadin, but giving them some fun melee tools to heal with. Remember, some (optional) melee tools to heal with. If I were a developer, I would use the next expansion to see if the (optional) melee tools are well enjoyed by players. If so, then I may add more in the next expac, or remove them if they were hated or rarely used.

I never said you were trying to make Holy a shockadin, I definitely quoted a post that wasn't yours when I made that response.

[Deleted]

Going to guess that the vast majority of these 19 pages so far are from pvp players. I think most serious pve players are quite happy with the paladin playstyle. That being said, I know there will be changes as there always are; often change for the sake of change unfortunately.

The only real difference I would like to see is the bubble being respected once more. There are far too many abilities which now just ignore it. I am less concerned if it's for the sake of raid boss balance, even though I could argue it's lazy design. However, it is quite galling when other classes are able to immune an ability that will go right through our bubble (most recently aim on Klaxxi for me personally).

[Pasture]

I'm not trying to make Holy into a shockadin, but giving them some fun melee tools to heal with. Remember, some (optional) melee tools to heal with. If I were a developer, I would use the next expansion to see if the (optional) melee tools are well enjoyed by players. If so, then I may add more in the next expac, or remove them if they were hated or rarely used.

The problem is:

1. Those optional tools become the optimal way to play so they become mandatory. Healers such as myself don't want to spend half their time meleeing. I'm glas CS is so weak now and they removed Insight mana gains. I hated them.

2. The optional tools aren't optimal so no one uses them.

Holy Paladins don't need to be a melee healer. They have plenty of similarities through utility abilities already but ultimately they're a healer concerned with triage. They shouldn't feel like retribution or protection. It's not their purpose.

[nightfalls]

If all you want is a melee fighter with all melee abilities, maybe you are playing the wrong class. Warrior forums are over there -->

[Pasture]

The only real difference I would like to see is the bubble being respected once more. There are far too many abilities which now just ignore it. I am less concerned if it's for the sake of raid boss balance, even though I could argue it's lazy design. However, it is quite galling when other classes are able to immune an ability that will go right through our bubble (most recently aim on Klaxxi for me personally).

I do find this a bit galling myself. They need to design mechanics better rather than just make immunities not actually make you immune.

[nightfalls]

I do find this a bit galling myself. They need to design mechanics better rather than just make immunities not actually make you immune.

Personally I'd also hope they remove Shattering Throw, myself.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Going to guess that the vast majority of these 19 pages so far are from pvp players. I think most serious pve players are quite happy with the paladin playstyle. That being said, I know there will be changes as there always are; often change for the sake of change unfortunately.

PVE ret is, well, okay.
At least from mechanic standpoint, and gameplay is actually engaging.
The real problem lies within numbers: Ret is never a top-notch dps.
All I want for PVE RET is to become ONE OF the top-tier DPS( repeat: ONE OF, not ONE), but, alas, it will never happen because any given stupid reason.

[Velshin]

I want paladins to have a 4th spec another dps spec with one hand and shield. It will be interesting.

[Deleted]

PVE ret is, well, okay.
At least from mechanic standpoint, and gameplay is actually engaging.
The real problem lies within numbers: Ret is never a top-notch dps.

Numbers are just that though; they are only of real concern to the very top players in the world who may or may not be able to play the class in a top progress guild. Lower down the pecking order it is not so much of a problem where individual ability varies enough to trump class (as long as we keep some useful raid cooldowns).

[Vash The Stampede]

And many Rets DO complain about that. What, by the way, is the functional difference between your "30 yard divine storm" and light of dawn?

That's because of many years of Ret being terrible and Holy being the only functional spec. Ret has become a cult spec, and anything taken away is taking away the awesome. If you were around in the TBC days, you'd know what I'm talking about. As for functional difference, there wouldn't be any. Remember fun optional tool.

How exactly am I complaining again? It is not complaining because I disagree with you. You fail to make any real points or give any sort of reasoning in your posts. You basically think every spec of paladin should play the same in the roles they play. And when it is mentioned that other healers also have melee specs and play differently from said specs, you dismiss it as "nothing like paladin" or "not melee-themed", which is pretty laughable.

It wouldn't play nearly the same. I don't expect Holy to run up to a boss and generate Holy Power to heal. You'd still sit in the back and cast heals and Holy Shock, with Word of Glory here and there. But if you happen to be near a boss, why not?

As for Druids and Shamans, I've always thought of them as being caster oriented with some melee flare. Where as Paladins are melee oriented with caster flare. But that is my opinion.

If all you want is a melee fighter with all melee abilities, maybe you are playing the wrong class. Warrior forums are over there -->

I've never enjoyed those comments since Vanilla.

Warriorpwns: Stupid Paladins want a Strike like Warriors. Play a warrior nub!
Then we got Crusader Strike.

Warriorpwns: Stupid Paladin wants an interrupt like Warriors. Play a warrior nub!
Then we get Rebuke.

Warriorpwns: Stupid Paladin wants a gap closer like a Warrior. Play a warrior nub!
I'm actually still waiting on that.

But yea, those comments never get old, or do they?

Going to guess that the vast majority of these 19 pages so far are from pvp players. I think most serious pve players are quite happy with the paladin playstyle. That being said, I know there will be changes as there always are; often change for the sake of change unfortunately.

I'm a serious pve Ret Paladin and I'm not happy with the performance. I'd actually like to see better mobility, and my single target dps is lacking in a lot of fights. PvP is so bad I'm not even dealing with it this patch.

[nightfalls]

It wouldn't play nearly the same. I don't expect Holy to run up to a boss and generate Holy Power to heal. You'd still sit in the back and cast heals and Holy Shock, with Word of Glory here and there. But if you happen to be near a boss, why not?

That was how things "were supposed" to work, ideally, in 5.2 and 5.3. There was a reason it was removed in 5.4.

Your suggestions seems out of touch with reality which isn't that surprising considering the "considerable knowledge" you've demonstrated about how paladins as healers (or just anyone as healers) work in general. Perhaps there's a reason none of the actual healers here are taking them seriously at all.

P.S: There is a reason I don't really act like I "know it all" about what Ret "needs" or what Prot "needs" and even if I give suggestions if serious, respected melee/tanks let me know that it's "completely out of touch with reality" I'll defer to their knowledge instead of acting like I know more or I know better than they do.

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But yea, those comments never get old, or do they?

Paladins have a healing spec and two melee (dps and tank) specs. Warriors are a class with only melee specs. You seem to want a class with 3 melee specs, that's warrior. Look over there. Healing specs need to be designed made not with Ret, but with other healing classes and the current healing model in mind.

I'm sure that's why you'd appreciate if Blizzard did the same for Ret, designed it with other melee classes in mind. If they didn't, you'd never get your gap closer, ever. And you still wouldn't have your CS or Rebuke.

[Deleted]

I'm a serious pve Ret Paladin and I'm not happy with the performance. I'd actually like to see better mobility, and my single target dps is lacking in a lot of fights. PvP is so bad I'm not even dealing with it this patch.

Again, I didn't make a comment about the numbers. Naturally when the very top guilds don't take retnubs to their progress raids you know the class isn't quite pulling it's weight. What I was saying is that I see very few pve paladins complaining about the way the paladin plays.

That being said, you need to be able to distinguish between what you can or can't do and what the class can or can't do. For example, I have remarkably similar gear to yourself. Let's compare two single target fights that we're both killing:

Sha of Pride and Malkorok Heroic:

Mine: http://www.raidbots.com/epeenbot/eu/azuremyst/thete/

Yours: http://www.raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/.../judgebringer/

And my gameplay is full of errors by the standards of the very top guys such as the likes of Zardox.

[Lyese]

throwdown

Epeen measuring aside, this is actually VERY interesting. Ret was once a spec that was difficult to distinguish the skill between players. Good to know that isn't the case.

[nightfalls]

Again, I didn't make a comment about the numbers. Naturally when the very top guilds don't take retnubs to their progress raids you know the class isn't quite pulling it's weight. What I was saying is that I see very few pve paladins complaining about the way the paladin plays.

One reason is similar to an argument I gave regarding healing raid utility: All paladins bring the exact same utility without much uniqueness. So everything Ret brings is brought by Holy and Prot. If your guild happens to run Paladin tanks and healers it diminishes the value of having Rets.

That being said, you need to be able to distinguish between what you can or can't do and what the class can or can't do. For example, I have remarkably similar gear to yourself. Let's compare two single target fights that we're both killing... And my gameplay is full of errors by the standards of the very top guys such as the likes of Zardox.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Lyese]

That's because of many years of Ret being terrible and Holy being the only functional spec. Ret has become a cult spec, and anything taken away is taking away the awesome. If you were around in the TBC days, you'd know what I'm talking about.

I was a PLD maintank in a top 3 guild on my server in BC (Kul Tiras, so backwater and not important). My and my other PLD tank friend often swapped MT'ing progression raids in SSC/TK/MH/BT without any serious problems, and we were ahead of the curve from most other guilds. Ret wasn't *AS* good, but seal twisting put us ahead of the other melee aside from Fury Warrs. Seal twisting was actually really useful in pvp as well, leading to the creation of many a thread about Allies crying for Seal of Blood. Hell, in 3.0 all chaos broke loose before the great "To the Ground" nerfs.

[Vaelanor]

Reversal to preCata design. If people want to play some class with combo points, there is a whole class already existing for that in all 3 specs.

And as such:
1. Holy spec - less emphasis on AoE healing. Fast cheap heals, long expensive heals. Strong single-target healing. Efficiency. That's what was defining paladin out of other healers. No procs, which are just far beyond stupid. Proc of faster AoE heal from single-target heal? Adds nothing but excuse to meter padders.

2. Prot spec - away with vengeance. No stupid GC procs. Procs are awful design. Especially GC, which likes to proc 1 second before actual cd is ready.

3. Ret spec - remove inquisition, slice and dice is a rogue's perk. Divine Storm no longer shares cd with anything and has healing portion returned.

Also Consecration being prot-only is a huge mistake. It was one of class-defining moves, and as such should be baseline and available from low levels (14+).

Divine Shield should grant total immunity (atm it doesn't, damage goes through from a lot of effects - like same Durumu's beam), remove absolutely any debuff and has its duration reversed to 12 sec. No more stupid "bubble+HS" glyph. Noone cares what people do in raids and how they cheat raid composition requirements. E. g., if now people stack ranged, doesn't mean that all melee should be reworked into ranged, same about paladins and their "bubble", seriously there was nothing OP with it.

Oh and remove interrupt. Should be done together with total tuning down of endless cc, interrupts, silences and snares of all classes and abuse of "didn't interrupt NPC - die or watch NPC go to full HP" mechanics. Whole "Active Mitigatoin" system is also nothing but interrupts in disguise. There is a whole class for interrupts - rogue, no need to force interrupt mechanics upon most other classes.

Alas, it's only a dream.

Edit: Oh and also Righteous Defense / Divine Intervention, which were baseline paladin abilities, which were quite a signature abilities, should be brought back.

Agree with first three, DS is what it is, and consecration was awesome as all specs but Prot only is fine.