Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon.

[Keristrasza]

I'd rather be able to get gear on my own instead of having to wait 30+ minutes in a queue as a DPS, for nothing to then drop.

This exactly, I know how to play my class and I don't want to depend on 4 other people that may or may not suck, for gear that may or may not drop. I want to skip dungeons because they are boring and get onto something that is slightly less so.

[Reyzzz]

Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon?
-people are just walking on an isle, killing mindless mobs,
-they can get gear just after they find chests(don't even need to kill mobs),
-new dungeon means boss fights, so people would be more prepared for a raid,
-new dungeons would be overall better than Timeless Isle, which is grind fest(of course doing dungeons is also grinding, but not as much as Timeless Isle, people enjoy more doing dungeons)

You aren't comparing isle to anything, just ranting about it.

Most of your points apply to dungeons aswell, and if people aren't prepared to raids at this point of wow/expansion, they have bigger problems.

If you claim blizzard is lazy, it just proves you know nothing about them as developers.

[Manabomb]

Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon?
-people are just walking on an isle, killing mindless mobs,
-they can get gear just after they find chests(don't even need to kill mobs),
-new dungeon means boss fights, so people would be more prepared for a raid,
-new dungeons would be overall better than Timeless Isle, which is grind fest(of course doing dungeons is also grinding, but not as much as Timeless Isle, people enjoy more doing dungeons),

I just came to this conclusion after seeing many people in LFR with Timeless Isle gear, they were doing less than 50-60K DPS and they were just bad.

I think that Blizzard was just lazy, they just made an isle with loot all over the place, which is pretty stupid for me.
What's your opinion?

This thread isn't LFR vs Flex, LFR vs Normal/Heroic.
It's thread about gearing though timeless isle vs gearing in a new dungeons.

Yeah I'm not buying it. I don't see how mindless 5 man dungeons somehow makes people more raid aware or more raid ready than a mindless grind on an island. Honestly to me it sounds like you're insulted they decided against instance grinds this expansion because they simply didn't want to.

I would take every point of your argument and bastardize it from the PoV of someone hating on 5 mans and wishing it were a timeless isle-type thing, but I'm not prepared to waste the kind of energy it would take to paraphrase "new dungeons would be overall better than timeless isle, which is a grind fest".

Maybe if people read normal mode mechanics for bosses when they come into lfr, and then learn how to play their class and avoid mechanics, then lfr would be a better place. Of course expecting that of the current snot driveling lfr community is like expecting kittens to train field mice how to limbo flawlessly.


Edit for good measure:

2 Words: Cataclysm Heroics :-)


My first answer.


Also my first answer.
And also you got my point, people with Timeless Isle gear expect raiding content easy, because they're less skilled... all they do is grinding mobs and don't learn anything from them.
But if the bosses in dungeons had similar mechanics I'd like that.

Their abilities are strong, but their mechanics are... bad. They're using 1-2 abilities in a rotation, I don't really expect anyone(with a little experience) to die there.



Yes, I think you have right, but as I said. Bosses with similar mechanics +better gear(not a random thing that you can get from looting a chest/killing a mob in 5-15 sec) would be more enjoyable, at least for me.

So wait. You just want every 5-man heroic to be cata heroics? Oh, so you want 10 hour-ish lfr ques too? Because with how things currently are, it would take the average noob months to even be lfr ready as is by grinding gear in your unforgiving anti-nub dungeons.

People with timeless gear don't think the content is going to be easy. They think it's another piece of gear to get into the next piece of content. LFR this tier has already proven to be pretty anti-nub as is, yet I see plenty of bad players with gear from both normal and flex. Bosses in dungeons with similar mechanics might get them raid ready, but at the same time you would bitch at Blizzard for how they are recycling mechanics and how every bossfight in every instance and every raid must be it's special snowflake.

The average mechanics of a 5 man heroic, even a cataclysm heroic, had cast times and mechanics easily avoidable to someone with 1/3 of a brain stem left. The issue here is people not learning their class, spec and the content of their own free will. As we saw in cataclysm, forcing "difficult" content down the casual-centric hive mind that is the rest of the 95% was the worst decision possible and made nothing better.

Finally your last point is opinion. Cool, we get that you might find it more enjoyable, but all of your reasons before that are conjecture in the sense that you want everyone to believe your opinion is right despite having no facts or even a system that works to back it up. Are 5 man grinds equal to timeless isle grind? That's up to the opinions, but taking facts and twisting them to fit your opinion is just fact distortion.

[Deleted]

That's the most hilarious fucking double think either. I swear do you people even read what you post? TI is no harder than any dungeon ever and is even less in terms of options. It's just a fucking grind on a tiny island. That's it. Not very much choice there. Everything on the island is pull and take down. Either cause your grinding the mob or want to get to the chest.

Both Timeless Isle and the current dungeons are faceroll and requires no effort, that is true. However, in dungeons you will have to deal with randoms unless you create a guild run, which isn't really worth it unless the content's difficulty makes up for it. On timeless you also have more choice of what kind of boring grind you want to do, in dungeons you don't. Timeless also have fun rare mobs and vanity items, dungeons do not.

Dungeons are better. PERIOD. End of fucking story. Dungeons with a proper valor system in place not only gave you great catch up but they provided an actual alternative to endless raid or fucking die grind this game has become.

Dungeons in their current difficulty isn't good for anything.

[Deleted]

If you go into the current dungeons solo you can die. If you go to the isle and solo you can die as well. In both scenarios if you have a group you will not die and feel no urgency. The difference is on the isle you're mindlessly running around in a circle killing the same 5-20 things. In a dungeon you're actually progressing through an area fighting different things along the way until you reach an end point. Feels less like I'm farming infinite spawns in Metroid and more like I'm actually playing the game.

To me it feels like I'm bashing my skull against a wall whenever I run a dungeon. On timeless I can at the very least decide for how long and how hard I will bash my head.

[prwraith]

Timeless isle made me want to watch paint dry because I was so bored I needed something comparatively active to do.

That's how boring timeless isle is. I would rather eat myself sick on baby puke, proceed to wash it down with formaldehyde, cut of my testicles and prostate myself on a web cam, than set foot on that horrible horrible soul killing boredom of an isle.

[Deleted]

NEWS FLASH: People have died in the current dungeons. I however had a very very very hard time dying on thunder island and I imagine I'd breeze through TI with no problems..

Newsflash, people who die in the current dungeons are either AFK or simply don't care about surviving.

- - - Updated - - -

You can do the same with dungeons...

No, you can't, because once you've entered a dungeon you have to kill X mobs (read: bash your skull X times into the wall) before you get the reward. On timeless you can bash it once or several, it's completely up to you.

[Glorious Leader]

Both Timeless Isle and the current dungeons are faceroll and requires no effort, that is true. However, in dungeons you will have to deal with randoms unless you create a guild run, which isn't really worth it unless the content's difficulty makes up for it. On timeless you also have more choice of what kind of boring grind you want to do, in dungeons you don't. Timeless also have fun rare mobs and vanity items, dungeons do not.




Dungeons in their current difficulty isn't good for anything.

They aren't good for anything because the developers havne't added anything to them. If they added new ones with gear and kept the tradition valor/justice system in place they would be worth doing. TI has nothing interesting. At least the "boring gind" is over with faster in dungeons.

- - - Updated - - -

Newsflash, people who die in the current dungeons are either AFK or simply don't care about surviving.

- - - Updated - - -



No, you can't, because once you've entered a dungeon you have to kill X mobs (read: bash your skull X times into the wall) before you get the reward. On timeless you can bash it once or several, it's completely up to you.

I guess that means people running TI must all be scrubs because people die there to. You don't have to kill X mobs, you can skip most and get to the end. However in TI you have to deal with assholes in the world being dicks.

[Deleted]

Timeless Isle feels like I'm playing on a private server... seriously. It's so lame.

I really miss the Cataclysm 5 man Hour of Twilight heroics.

[Deleted]

They aren't good for anything because the developers havne't added anything to them. If they added new ones with gear and kept the tradition valor/justice system in place they would be worth doing. TI has nothing interesting. At least the "boring gind" is over with faster in dungeons.

I would still rather farm Timeless over the current difficulty of the so called "heroic" dungeons.

I guess that means people running TI must all be scrubs because people die there to. You don't have to kill X mobs, you can skip most and get to the end. However in TI you have to deal with assholes in the world being dicks.

You can skip most, meaning you have to kill some, meaning you have to kill X mobs. X does not stand for all of the mobs in the dungeon, it stands for an unknown number... As in, on Timeless Isle you can kill 1-5 if you so desire, in a Dungeon you will usually always have to kill more than 20, meaning: Both activities suck but dungeons in their current state suck even more.

[Deleted]

Yeah I'm not buying it. I don't see how mindless 5 man dungeons somehow makes people more raid aware

Who said new dungeons have to be mindless and faceroll?

Case in point: Icecrown 5-mans on launch of ICC patch.
Doing those, at least in a LFD setting, was anything but faceroll and in fact it is hard to argue that HoR was not overtuned even. Those were the sort of challenge that was FUN. Not to mention the last-patch dungeon of Magister's Terrace. Hard. Fun.

The choice does not have to be faceroll dungeons vs solo grind on an Isle. It could be: Meaningfully tuned 5-mans AND solo grind (for those who prefer that styl).

[Glorious Leader]

I would still rather farm Timeless over the current difficulty of the so called "heroic" dungeons.




You can skip most, meaning you have to kill some, meaning you have to kill X mobs. X does not stand for all of the mobs in the dungeon, it stands for an unknown number... As in, on Timeless Isle you can kill 1-5 if you so desire, in a Dungeon you will usually always have to kill more than 20, meaning: Both activities suck but dungeons in their current state suck even more.

You can kill nothing in TI if you like and you can kill nothing in the dungeon if you like. You'll get similar results from doing that. I fail to see the distinction to be honest. It's basically saying look I can skip and not do shit easier on TI then I can in dungeons which is simple untrue. You could opt out of both if you so choose just simple by not doing them.

I would love to do some dungeons over shitty TI but the developers have seen fit to all but abandon that model.

[Deleted]

I guess you can only kill a mob once or a few times. But unless you spend at least as much time as you would in a dungeon it's not going to be productive. At least in a dungeon I'm not competing with 100 other people for a finite number of spawns. I'm just competing with others of my role/armor type for gear(and even that is going away since they've talked about using the LFR style loot for dungeons). Not to mention I can specifically target gear that actually has the stats I want vs. having to pray that my burden of eternity gives me a piece of gear that's useful.

Might be the same amount of time as you spend in a dungeon, but you can at the very least split it up if you so desire, you can't do that with a dungeon. Also in a dungeon you have to deal with the people who are in there, I prefer to stay as far away from them as possible whenever I can. Timeless Isle has more than enough npc spawns, I play on a high pop server and the only time it was difficult to find mobs to kill was the first couple of days after the release of the patch. Right now there's lots of people there killing stuff all over the place, but there's even more npc's up for the killing.

[Deleted]

You can kill nothing in TI if you like and you can kill nothing in the dungeon if you like. You'll get similar results from doing that. I fail to see the distinction to be honest. It's basically saying look I can skip and not do shit easier on TI then I can in dungeons which is simple untrue. You could opt out of both if you so choose just simple by not doing them.

I really don't see your point here. My point was that you have full control of how many you wish to kill on Timeless Isle, you do not in a dungeon. Furthermore you even have options of obtaining gear even without killing any mobs if you prefer to search for chests, or joining in on killing rare spawns.

I would love to do some dungeons over shitty TI but the developers have seen fit to all but abandon that model.

Maybe dungeons aren't as popular as you thought?

[whywhatwhowhenhow]

I guess Blizzard are just trying something different with timeless isle. People are sick to death of daily quests and queuing up for everything.

Personally I would prefer new dungeons, but since Blizz can't make them with any challenge due to random people and the LFG tool, I'd rather they didn't waste the resources on more crappy story mode 5 man's like we had with hour of twilight.

[nekobaka]

For myself, I like the human co-op gameplay environment compared to a solo one where other players are a nuisance. Solo game play in WoW generally gets quite mundane for me. I continued to play WoW past BC mostly due to the player interaction in group based content.

[Manabomb]

They weren't always so mindless. The LFD tool started a slow slide towards making them "accessible" for every group that made them mindless. Get rid of LFR/LFD tools and problem solved.

- - - Updated - - -



You can do the same with dungeons...

Okay, then let's also go back in time to the burning crusade, before arthas was dead in the realm of fantasy fairies where everything was better because we didn't have convenience systems like lfr/lfd in place.

See, these are the reasons why Blizzard has such a disconnect from it's fan base, not because we can be right sometimes, not because they just hate us, but because of things like this. LFD brought a hell of a lot of good to this game, and every game after it's inception (Seriously, if a new mmo doesnt launch with lfd, it's bitched about until it's added or the game is a sinking ship.). However, LFD brought a lot of bad to the game with it, yet that bad simply replaced the bad of waiting spamming in trade for 4 hours looking for the one CC you needed that wasn't shit. Or trying to progress dungeons on a low pop server, Good luck with those things.

The same can be said for lfr in the sense that it allows the bottom 95% of this game that doesn't actively normal mode raid a chance to see content they would otherwise never see yet pay 15$ a month for. You take the good with the bad, yet the delusions of somehow everything will be better if we ramped up the difficulty of 5-mans, removed lfd and lfr and made everything a punishing grind is a twinkle in a fountain that's long been dry. Things will never return to that mess especially when it completely undermines that very few subs that continue to maintain interest in this game.

The sooner we get this through our thick skulls, the sooner we might be able to get over the fact that someone has the ability to see content you already saw 5 times since it's release.

Who said new dungeons have to be mindless and faceroll?

Case in point: Icecrown 5-mans on launch of ICC patch.
Doing those, at least in a LFD setting, was anything but faceroll and in fact it is hard to argue that HoR was not overtuned even. Those were the sort of challenge that was FUN. Not to mention the last-patch dungeon of Magister's Terrace. Hard. Fun.

The choice does not have to be faceroll dungeons vs solo grind on an Isle. It could be: Meaningfully tuned 5-mans AND solo grind (for those who prefer that styl).

You are kidding, right?

I wouldn't call those 5 mans as faceroll as say the final 3 dungeons at the end of cata, but they -are- part of the wrath heroic genre. They are faceroll in every sense of the word, again I repeat, if you have atleast 1/3rd of a brainstem. They made them that way -for the specific reason- of grinding people up to icc-ish levels.

I think what you're confusing difficulty with is mechanics and a lack of people learning them, which I will agree is a plague upon every single piece of content that is covered by random matchmaking systems. Yet, what makes you think people would suddenly start learning mechanics for something if they've been terrible at it for 5+ years?

I guess the cynic in me has lost hope in the average nub as of late, yet I don't believe someone will succeed at a mechanic in this game after 99 failures on the 100th attempt. But if they can, that's nice. Unfortunately, there's more than one mechanic per boss and there's more than one boss per instance. Enjoy that thought.

Another addendum because I noticed your snippet about H MGT: If you weren't a mage, you never cleared that place as a dps. Perhaps it's because the tanks or healers I ran with were bad, but at the same time those are the same things we are dealing with now and it was a painful grind.

Atleast the isle has the decency to be a far less painful grind than dealing with 3 other idiots+some guy when dealing with mechanics. Perhaps dealing with people has made me cynical.

[Glorious Leader]

I really don't see your point here. My point was that you have full control of how many you wish to kill on Timeless Isle, you do not in a dungeon. Furthermore you even have options of obtaining gear even without killing any mobs if you prefer to search for chests, or joining in on killing rare spawns.



Maybe dungeons aren't as popular as you thought?

I have an idea. Let's take all the gear and reward out of the island and let's see how popular the island is. What's that nobody would bother? Well maybe the island isn't as popular as you thought? Of course when the developers MARGINALIZE the content (as they've done in the case of dungeons) then participation will naturally drop. That's true of anything and not really an indicator of it's popularity as this community has shown it's perfectly willing to do shit it hates for gear.

You have full control of what you with to kill in a dungeon, you can simple opt out and choose not to run the dungeon. I.e KILL NOTHING. I could also say if that chest you want on the island is behind several mobs then you really don't have a choice you must kill the mobs to loot it. Joining in on killing rare spawns in still killing mobs.

[Deleted]

You don't like that the current difficulty of dungeons takes less than 20 minutes to complete but you prefer being able to gear in 5 minutes or less. I'm confused. Do you want challenging content or free loot?

I want challenging content, but if my choice is between two really boring activities I will take the one that offers me more flexibility in when and how much I wish to suffer.

Again, run dungeons with friends.

Would love too, but you see, for as long as dungeons are as easy as they are it doesn't matter much anyway because they are still really bloody boring, and I would still much rather do something else. Even Heroic Scenarios are a hell of a lot more fun, and that's why I run those with my guild several times a week.

[Nelle]

I like the Isle concept, perhaps the droprate is too high. Had to disenchant 250 items, yes TWOHUNDREDANDFIFTY items when I was done farming Bigger Bag achievement on my main.