45 min LFR queue as DPS. Yes, it's about tanks...

[Louis CK]

No, it's that playing a tank takes more skill then not playing a dps/healer. You don't need all the dps/healers to even be at their keyboards, you do however need the tanks.

Goddamn us for expecting tanks to be at their keyboards! This makes me want to shake my fist at god!!! Why must we be so demanding!!!!

Being cheeky, but to tank LFR, that's about all it takes. Hell, some fights you can actually ask after about 30 seconds and come back once the boss is dead.

[jason1975]

A common misconception is that playing a tank requires more skill than playing a dps/healer. Back before the massive changes to threat output and ability damage, the skill level of your tank(s) is what carried a raid. A significant part of the success of guilds such as <Death and Taxes>, <Nihilum>, and <Premonition> was because they had an amazing main tank, who made everyone else's role easier. In Cataclysm and MoP, having an amazing tank is much less imperative. If your tanks show up every raid, aren't lazy, and taunt every time the other tank has "x" number of debuffs, then you probably consider them "good," and with them your guild should be capable of progressing through content.

My point is that it's much easier now for a tank, who would been subpar-average back in vanilla/tbc, to be considered competent now, in MoP. If it's just a misconception that's scaring people away from playing a tank, then perhaps Blizzard should work on alleviating that.

As far as people being rude to tanks--that one can go the other way just as easily. I've seen just as many tanks believing themselves to be king of the peasants and being rude to others as I've seen others being rude to tanks, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a relationship that has been degrading ever since LFD was implemented, and there is no love lost among the roles.

I see DPS with this attitude all the time. You realize that if you want to stick with this attitude towards tanks, you will continue to suffer long que times.

If the community wants more tanks, it needs to encourage them, not try and beat them up until they tank (hint . . . they won't!).

Try acknowledging that the tanks are required to lead the raid, be the most knowledgable people in the raid (for all roles), and have to do so while also doing their individual job. Try acknowledging that that is pretty difficult, and significantly more difficult than healing (and certainly DPSing). It's something that gear will not help very much either. Try supporting the tank when they don't succeed at keeping all those balls in the air (especially when some jerkoff DPS starts yelling at them).

That might actually change something.

[hyphnos]

You can make every class have a tank spec, but if folks actually enjoy dpsing more (which they seem to, based on queue times), nothing changes.

The correct answer is, as always, 'go do something else while in queue'.

This trades on the presumption that what is after the queue is sooo desirable that it is worth sitting in the queue. Blizzard can't afford to assume that's the case any more than McDonald's will tell you to wait 45 minutes on a Big Mac or Verizon will tell you that if you can't use your phone for 45 minutes, just wait, it'll work eventually.

[vitu]

Being cheeky, but to tank LFR, that's about all it takes. Hell, some fights you can actually ask after about 30 seconds and come back once the boss is dead.

Would like to see you try that trick without immensly outgearing the lfr and having healers that would stand for that. That is if you're not fighting say... malkorok? Or thok? Or... most bosses in SoO? Anyway as s1 already mentioned some lousy bag with chance for a spirit flask or gem and gold enough to cover expences of taking dmg (wipes not inc.) is way not enough to make me go with lfr croud anywhere. So the solutions are 2: either better rewards (eg. BoA bags that upon opening drop loot useful to the curently holding character spec or a guaranteed mount you dont own yet) or changing the community rolling back to pre-lfr era where noone dared to run in front of the tank, everyone would patiently wait for s1 (mostlikly tank) to explain the fight/tacs and noone would EVEN THINK of ninja pulling... Guess better rewards soon?

[Keepwatukill]

If you as a tank are not towards the very top of the DPS meter then you are not playing at a high level. People who say threat used to matter are correct but now instead of just trying to hold aggro you can absolutely slaughter things while still being a tank (dmg soaker). I still fail to see how tanking became boring because we do 100X more dps now than vanilla/bc. I do not miss the days of staring at omen. With the changes to vengeance and threat all that happened was bad tanks can now at least hold onto a boss for a few minutes which only helps everybody out because there are SOOOOO many bad tanks out there and a lot don't even know it. I see normal raiding guilds with ok'ish progression that have awful tanks but manage despite their poor performance.

[Louis CK]

Would like to see you try that trick without immensly outgearing the lfr and having healers that would stand for that. That is if you're not fighting say... malkorok? Or thok? Or... most bosses in SoO? Anyway as s1 already mentioned some lousy bag with chance for a spirit flask or gem and gold enough to cover expences of taking dmg (wipes not inc.) is way not enough to make me go with lfr croud anywhere. So the solutions are 2: either better rewards (eg. BoA bags that upon opening drop loot useful to the curently holding character spec or a guaranteed mount you dont own yet) or changing the community rolling back to pre-lfr era where noone dared to run in front of the tank, everyone would patiently wait for s1 (mostlikly tank) to explain the fight/tacs and noone would EVEN THINK of ninja pulling... Guess better rewards soon?

I guess you never pugged before LFR. People did the same stupid shit lol, just not as commonly as now. The anonymity has made people who wouldn't normally act like dumb assholes act like dumb assholes.

And I'm actually tanking LFR currently in my DPS gear while I get Secrets, I don't have any tank gear. Also wanted to see why everyone was complaining... Like usual, just tank-entitlement.

[jason1975]

And I'm actually tanking LFR currently in my DPS gear while I get Secrets, I don't have any tank gear. Also wanted to see why everyone was complaining... Like usual, just tank-entitlement.

And this attitude, which is terribly prevalent in LFR, is why all of us real tanks stay the heck away . . . even on our alts (I officially retired from my tanking main after tanking & RL'ing in Wrath through Cata, but have come back for Flex).

Why tank a LFR when I can get a flex group just as fast, get better gear, have a better experience with the other players, and not have so much responsibility (read: almost all)?

And especially when I don't have to deal with some malcontent DPS with a chip on their shoulder towards tanks (or people who just can't stand it when someone actually leads the group) . . .

[Keepwatukill]

There are some personality tendencies shared by a decent portion of the great tanks whom we are speaking about enticing into LFR.

1) Type "A" personality, these are the people who want to be in control and want to boss people around
2) Aggressive by nature and always want to be in the fight not watching
3) Control freaks can be a result of superior knowledge but also just immense lack of patience for stupid people and stupid ideas
4) Greed, by the nature of the role a tank has the greatest chance of reward for loot and has the most attention paid by a guild or group

These are just a few traits I have seen a lot of great tanks share and I fit the bill for a lot of them as well. If you want the good ones to come back to LFR then freaking pay us!

[vitu]

I guess you never pugged before LFR. People did the same stupid shit lol, just not as commonly as now. The anonymity has made people who wouldn't normally act like dumb assholes act like dumb assholes.

Tanking since tbc. Yea, ppl did same stupid shit but since there was no cross realm and rep in top guilds passed on you stoped raiding pretty quickly. Plus addons like blacklist were a massive help with eliminating toxicity form a pool of players and cooling of any trolls.

And I'm actually tanking LFR currently in my DPS gear while I get Secrets, I don't have any tank gear. Also wanted to see why everyone was complaining... Like usual, just tank-entitlement.

I know I'm good and I act on it. I tend to be polite but i wont let ppl give me shit over their lacking.

[Louis CK]

Tanking since tbc. Yea, ppl did same stupid shit but since there was no cross realm and rep in top guilds passed on you stoped raiding pretty quickly. Plus addons like blacklist were a massive help with eliminating toxicity form a pool of players and cooling of any trolls.


.
I know I'm good and I act on it. I tend to be polite but i wont let ppl give me shit over their lacking.

Exactly. The problem now is not tanks or DPS or healers. It's ignorant, anonymous people who do stupid shit, and that includes tanks just as much as anyone else.

That's why these threads have me so irritated. Just because someone rolls a tank doesn't entitle them to anything more than anyone else (except maybe instant Q's lol)

- - - Updated - - -

And this attitude, which is terribly prevalent in LFR, is why all of us real tanks stay the heck away . . . even on our alts (I officially retired from my tanking main after tanking & RL'ing in Wrath through Cata, but have come back for Flex).

Why tank a LFR when I can get a flex group just as fast, get better gear, have a better experience with the other players, and not have so much responsibility (read: almost all)?

And especially when I don't have to deal with some malcontent DPS with a chip on their shoulder towards tanks (or people who just can't stand it when someone actually leads the group) . . .

I agree. The good tanks move elsewhere, and the bad tanks stay in LFR and cry about it on MMOC as if people should automatically respect them.

If you're a good tank, I respect that. I don't respect those who go in LFR and think everyone should kiss their ass.

[Odina]

Read Nobleshields post it sums it up perfectly.

Again what's wrong with that? Re-read my hockey comparison it's the same thing! Most team activities with different roles will have a role that takes more preperation vs one that you just go out and do. It's different as the roles entice different likes/personalities/ preferences. I was a mage for 7 years in this game and I really liked it but I never enjoyed the game as much as I do tanking. I get a rush our of the pressure and that is what I love... looking at the dps meeters and being at the top is not as much a rush for myself as executing the fight properly... I believe this is one of the biggest problems in LFR as many "tanks" are dps in offspec for a fast que. They are not interested in tanking, they don't like what tanking is, they hate the pressure that comes from tanking but they LOVE the fast que. As such what regular tanks thrive on in a raid (the pressure for lack of a better word) they HATE and in my opinion it's normal there is a shortage as most don't play the game for that rush.

Either way it's all opinions anyhow mine just comes from a normal mode tank that loves tanking. 3/15 shitty dps can be carried with not much of a notice....1/2 tanks being shit will show really fast specially on a fight like spoils where the other one can't save your ass! Another sport analogy I heard once was tanks are pitchers (need to know all teh pitches they can or can't use and where to place them vs each batter), healers are catchers (need to help cordinate everythign with the pitcher make some calls etc), and dps is the fielders (catch the damn ball!). The pitcher and catcher will dictate how the defence goes and can ultimatly have the bigest say in how the game will play out but not many people will notice there part over that fielder that made a diving catch or turned the double. I mean it's pretty easy to see...how many times do you see a pitcher in the highlight reel apart from throwing a no hitter compared to a simple diving catch for a 1st or even 2nd out not even game changing? Same for tanks... the good ones come in know wtf they need to do and expect to get shit on if they fuck up and not be praised to the high hell if they do what they were supose to.

[Museigen]

What's wrong with it is you're comparing sports who get paid in millions to a pastime game for fun, it's not even slightly comparable. I understand the analogy and its decently accurate, but "Taking the most of the workload" is a bit different when you're getting paid quite handsomely to do it.

That aside, I don't think there is a problem with the idea the tanks are in charge the problem is in everything that isn't a tank expecting to do practically nothing, expecting to be carried, raging then they aren't carried enough THEN wonder/complain why there's a lack of tanks for LFR. It's the combination of those that is the issue at hand, for me at least. People could do 1 or 2 of those things and be quite a bit more reasonable. However doing little to nothing, expecting someone else to do everything perfectly, raging at the person for anything less than perfection and then questioning why there aren't more people do do everything for you...well when you spell it out with words like that, I think it makes it pretty clear doesn't it?

[the]

Goddamn us for expecting tanks to be at their keyboards! This makes me want to shake my fist at god!!! Why must we be so demanding!!!!

Being cheeky, but to tank LFR, that's about all it takes. Hell, some fights you can actually ask after about 30 seconds and come back once the boss is dead.

Being serious here, which boss in SoO that is like that? The closest I would think is Sha of Pride if a DPS comes to release the prison, maybe Immersius if heals, tank, and dps far outgear it? The LFR queues we're talking about are SoO queues right? Is Wing 1 a huge queue or is it only 2 and 3?

[khalltusk]

Again what's wrong with that? Re-read my hockey comparison it's the same thing! Most team activities with different roles will have a role that takes more preperation vs one that you just go out and do. It's different as the roles entice different likes/personalities/ preferences. I was a mage for 7 years in this game and I really liked it but I never enjoyed the game as much as I do tanking. I get a rush our of the pressure and that is what I love... looking at the dps meeters and being at the top is not as much a rush for myself as executing the fight properly... I believe this is one of the biggest problems in LFR as many "tanks" are dps in offspec for a fast que. They are not interested in tanking, they don't like what tanking is, they hate the pressure that comes from tanking but they LOVE the fast que. As such what regular tanks thrive on in a raid (the pressure for lack of a better word) they HATE and in my opinion it's normal there is a shortage as most don't play the game for that rush.

Either way it's all opinions anyhow mine just comes from a normal mode tank that loves tanking. 3/15 shitty dps can be carried with not much of a notice....1/2 tanks being shit will show really fast specially on a fight like spoils where the other one can't save your ass! Another sport analogy I heard once was tanks are pitchers (need to know all teh pitches they can or can't use and where to place them vs each batter), healers are catchers (need to help cordinate everythign with the pitcher make some calls etc), and dps is the fielders (catch the damn ball!). The pitcher and catcher will dictate how the defence goes and can ultimatly have the bigest say in how the game will play out but not many people will notice there part over that fielder that made a diving catch or turned the double. I mean it's pretty easy to see...how many times do you see a pitcher in the highlight reel apart from throwing a no hitter compared to a simple diving catch for a 1st or even 2nd out not even game changing? Same for tanks... the good ones come in know wtf they need to do and expect to get shit on if they fuck up and not be praised to the high hell if they do what they were supose to.

As good as a tank is and as vital as they are to beat encounters you will not beat encounters if your 6 healers are bad and people die or your entire 17 DPS cannot do the required DPS to kill the boss.

Tanks should know how to play their class sure, some players will be better than others fine. But expecting all tanks to lead raids and shoulder the responsibility to dish out tactics in LFR? No, thats not cool. Sure if a tank does do that awesome, but anyone can do that and it should not be a requirement for a tank (which was my original argument with a different poster :P).

[Selda]

Just got 2h30 as healer/tank + a friend dps...

Not only a "tank" problem... well it was for HoF... but still.

[Odina]

What's wrong with it is you're comparing sports who get paid in millions to a pastime game for fun, it's not even slightly comparable. I understand the analogy and its decently accurate, but "Taking the most of the workload" is a bit different when you're getting paid quite handsomely to do it.

the % of people that play baseball and get paid for it is probably the same as people that play video games and get paid to do it when comparing there populations! I fail to see how money has anythgin to do it. Isnt Baseball "Americas past time" ? Never understood why when you mention sports in any analogy peoepl jump all over the money aspect... the largest population of people that play any sport do not get paid to play it and do it for pleasure / liesure activity just like video games!

As for the other part... well the issue is not so much they expect to get carried as much as they have become acustomed to buffers that are no longer there at the begingin of an LFR release. in the past normal and heroic raiders would still be doing lfr due to bad rng in there raid and going for tier or wepps or trinks or hell even offsets... but now Flex has given them an alternative so what most have come acustomed to doing half assing even at launch of a new tier lf) is now resulting in mass whipes and they auto blame tanks as in the past that was the only role that could make you whipe that much!

I personally left an lfr or 2 so far in SOO not because I was being yelled at but because there was nothign more I coudl do to help them defeate it and 5 stacks was not enough to help them... at that point you just tap out!

[Louis CK]

What's wrong with it is you're comparing sports who get paid in millions to a pastime game for fun, it's not even slightly comparable. I understand the analogy and its decently accurate, but "Taking the most of the workload" is a bit different when you're getting paid quite handsomely to do it.

That aside, I don't think there is a problem with the idea the tanks are in charge the problem is in everything that isn't a tank expecting to do practically nothing, expecting to be carried, raging then they aren't carried enough THEN wonder/complain why there's a lack of tanks for LFR. It's the combination of those that is the issue at hand, for me at least. People could do 1 or 2 of those things and be quite a bit more reasonable. However doing little to nothing, expecting someone else to do everything perfectly, raging at the person for anything less than perfection and then questioning why there aren't more people do do everything for you...well when you spell it out with words like that, I think it makes it pretty clear doesn't it?

Well then let's put it like this:

What is the role of a tank in LFR?

Make boss attack you

Move out of bad stuff

Pick up other bad things that might come out, which is rare in LFR

Taunt occasionally, and if you're feeling frisky, pop a survival CD


What is the role of a healer in LFR?

Keep health pools from reaching 0.

Move out of bad stuff.

Make up for people who aren't moving out of bad stuff.

Take bad things off of people.

Handle the various mechanics such as stacking, spreading, freeing others from bad things, target switching, etc etc


What is the role of a DPS in LFR?

Damage the boss

Stay out of bad stuff

If you're good, make up for where the tank lacks in threat generation by throttling your DPS

Handle the various mechanics such as stacking, spreading, freeing others from bad things, target switching, etc etc



Tanks don't do any more work than anyone else in the raid. And it could be argued that they can get by with less than others in the raid.

Do I expect you to be at your keyboard the whole time? Yep, just like I expect that of everyone. Using the "I have to be there the whole time while others can AFK" is just a stupid argument. It's basically saying, "I wish I could AFK"

[the]

Well then let's put it like this:
Using the "I have to be there the whole time while others can AFK" is just a stupid argument. It's basically saying, "I wish I could AFK"

This is not true. Imagine working your job, getting paid the wage you do. Now you see the company hiring others. The new hires do nothing and they are getting paid the same as you. It's about fairness in terms of work done to compensation. It could also be called distributive justice. It evokes emotion, not because a person wishes to be lazy. You see the same thing in terms of welfare, and any other "handouts." Some people do want to be lazy, others want fairness.

[calanos]

Tanks don't do any more work than anyone else in the raid. And it could be argued that they can get by with less than others in the raid.

Do I expect you to be at your keyboard the whole time? Yep, just like I expect that of everyone. Using the "I have to be there the whole time while others can AFK" is just a stupid argument. It's basically saying, "I wish I could AFK"

I think the first statement is just not correct. There are only 2 tanks, both of which usually have mechanics that need to happen (not saying those are hard mechanics). Each of which make up 50% of the tanking contingent, and I would estimate 33% (each) of the factors that actually affect LFR success (about 1/3 for each tank, and 1/3 for the other 23 players combined).

As one of 17 DPS, or one of 6 healers, you can literally go make a sandwich and it probably doesn't significantly affect the % chance of the LFR attempt succeeding or failing. Case in point: the 6 DPS on every pull that add up to the DPS the top guy is doing, and the 2 healers who are just DPSing to make it go faster.

The tanks have to at least know stuff like "taunt this, do that." It isn't that people say "I wish I could AFK," I think its more that being able to psuedo-AFK is the only thing that makes LFR tolerable to a lot of quality players. Carrying LFR Heroes to victory is painful enough, but at least as DPS or on my Mistweaver I can do it risk-free and still dominate while watching TV on my other monitor or talking to guildies on vent. As a tank I would have to actively pay attention, even in LFR, and I don't want to do that. That sounds selfish, but I think a LOT of players feel the same way. I just do Flex mode now, which is challenging enough to require actual brainpower and attention, and I can pick who the people I play with are even if its through oQueue.

[Nazrark]

Going from BC to Wrath, I was a Lock dps going to resto shaman. I healed for Wrath and Cata until our raid needed a more reliable tank. At that point I switched to tank for MoP.

I have good days and bad days with LFR. Although the last experience I had with Siege, makes me not want to do it again. I generally end up with a lot of toxic dps, people who are generally bad for the environment. They figure because they dps, they don't have to pay attention. I've had horrible OTs, but if I talk to them, they understand what has to be done and improve that way.

But, when I got kicked from the second wing of Siege because a dps got pissy and didn't like that I was explaining the fight to everyone. I said to myself that I won't be going back into it.