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  1. #401
    Brewmaster Arenis's Avatar
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    You can add as many tank classes as you like, it won't change a thing. People don't tank for the simple reason they don't want to be the one that everyone depends on.

    I myself have 4 tanks now, because I love the job. I've tried DPSing several times, but plain abandoned the raid because it was too dull for words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trauma443 View Post
    Two magical solutions for the complete mess of WoW nowadays:

    1.- Implement NPC tanking on dungeons and raids, for God's fuckin' sake, instead waiting 45 minutes in front of your computer or flying in circles in cities. We're paying for playing, not for waiting.
    2.- Implement a way to provide pet/demons/whatever tanking, instead bosses two-shotting them.

    [...]

    Call to arms failed. CRZ failed. Connected realms will fail. Blizzard, stop being a greedy and incompetent company and don't let you customers wait 45 fuckin' minutes.

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    This game isn't a F2P one. This game isn't an NGO one. We're the customers and we have the right to blame Blizzard for each and every dumbass move that they do with its product. We have the right to DEMAND a better gaming experience, even when Blizzad don't want to read or hear about it. So yes, my needs are the most important, I don't want to do that, I don't want to wait and I must get everything.

    And when everything else fails, vote with your wallet and let this game sinks.
    I sincerely hope your kind just unsubs at once. "Players" like you are the primairy cause of this games' downfall.
    Last edited by Arenis; 2013-10-20 at 03:16 PM.

  2. #402
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Arenis View Post
    I sincerely hope your kind just unsubs at once. "Players" like you are the primairy cause of this games' downfall.
    Heh, truth hurts, eh? . The reason of this game's downfall are the brainless sheeps that conform with anything that Blizzard throws at them and keep following the herd.

    Keep following the herd, my friend, keep following.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by trauma443 View Post
    Heh, truth hurts, eh? . The reason of this game's downfall are the brainless sheeps that conform with anything that Blizzard throws at them and keep following the herd.

    Keep following the herd, my friend, keep following.
    This isn't necessarily true. Just because he may not be comfortable with how the vocal masses affect the game doesn't mean he's following any kind of herd. It's actually the opposite.

    If it's considered sheepish and a herd mentality to not want to see the game devolved into a mass of socialistic rewards and game changes that make even basic mechanics a nonissue, then I would have to be counted among the sheep myself.

    To each his own. The game has lost certain bits of flavor it once had, but I think they're still doing a good job of balancing things when all is said and done.

    If it does ever get to the point where there are no rewards for effort or the gameplay is finally dulled to a point where intelligent decisions no longer matter then I would have to regrettably stop playing. But it's still workable for now.
    Last edited by Louis CK; 2013-10-20 at 03:47 PM.

  4. #404
    Brewmaster Arenis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trauma443 View Post
    Heh, truth hurts, eh? . The reason of this game's downfall are the brainless sheeps that conform with anything that Blizzard throws at them and keep following the herd.

    Keep following the herd, my friend, keep following.
    If only that would make any sense.

  5. #405
    I don't mind tanking lfr. I find it to be the easiest role because I'm more apt to have a successful run when I tank it. About abuse, you really need thick skin when dealing with random groups. 99% of the time if someone badmouths you they're just blowing off steam and will let it go if you just ignore it. If you do something wrong, an acknowledgement and "I'm sorry" goes a long way to diffusing the situation. Remember, they're not really upset at you, they're just frustrated that the run didn't go right at that point for whatever reason. Don't take it personal, stay positive, and it won't bother you.

    It does feel great when a healer or another tank thanks you for doing a good job. While that doesn't happen often enough, it does happen. So, it's not all bad.

  6. #406
    Deleted
    LF* tools are not meant for any kind of cooperation, everything must be nerfed to allow players just rush through it without any thought. Beginning of Cataclysm proved that when heroic instances that required cooperation failed miserably in LFD environment.

    So why is LFR requires tanks to put any effort when other roles can mindlessly push random buttons? LFR needs to be nerfed to make it in line with LFD for tanks, that is pulling everything and ignoring any tactics. That's the only way tanks will go there.

    Problem can only be solved by making LFR experience for tanks the same as it is for other roles. LFR/LFD is mindless loot pinata anyway.
    Last edited by mmocbeba583bd0; 2013-10-20 at 04:03 PM.

  7. #407
    I don't agree binki. A lot of people roll tanks because they like the role, not because they want it to be easy. I think something that would go a long ways towards getting shorter queue times would be to design some wings of lfr to be one tank encounters. If they designed the encounters to require a team to more closely match the quantity of roles queuing for them, wait times would go down.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    LF* tools are not meant for any kind of cooperation, everything must be nerfed to allow players just rush through it without any thought. Beginning of Cataclysm proved that when heroic instances that required cooperation failed miserably in LFD environment.

    So why is LFR requires tanks to put any effort when other roles can mindlessly push random buttons? LFR needs to be nerfed to make it in line with LFD for tanks, that is pulling everything and ignoring any tactics. That's the only way tanks will go there.

    Problem can only be solved by making LFR experience for tanks the same as it is for other roles. LFR/LFD is mindless loot pinata anyway.
    What effort exactly? Moving occasionally? Pressing a taunt button occasionally? Pressing random buttons occasionally for threat?

    Hell, I went into tank a couple LFR's the other day just because I keep seeing all these threads and wanted to see what all the hub bub was... I have 0 tank gear and hadn't tanked any of the fights until then. It was just as simple and boring as I expected it to be and I didn't have one problem.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Compstance View Post
    What effort exactly? Moving occasionally? Pressing a taunt button occasionally? Pressing random buttons occasionally for threat?

    Hell, I went into tank a couple LFR's the other day just because I keep seeing all these threads and wanted to see what all the hub bub was... I have 0 tank gear and hadn't tanked any of the fights until then. It was just as simple and boring as I expected it to be and I didn't have one problem.
    Which lfr? There's a lot of difference between a fight that everyone outgears and one that is new. It's also possible for tanks to be carried if the rest of the group is good, which likely happened here. You can't form an accurate impression off of one (or even several) runs. I'd wager that most people playing tank roles have played other roles as well, so when we tell you there's more flak and challenge associated with it, it might be a good idea to listen. Dps roles are mind-numbingly simple in comparison.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by dusselldorf View Post
    Which lfr? There's a lot of difference between a fight that everyone outgears and one that is new. It's also possible for tanks to be carried if the rest of the group is good, which likely happened here. You can't form an accurate impression off of one (or even several) runs. I'd wager that most people playing tank roles have played other roles as well, so when we tell you there's more flak and challenge associated with it, it might be a good idea to listen. Dps roles are mind-numbingly simple in comparison.
    Oh, I'll be tanking more of them over the next week or two, I gotta catch up on my legendary stuff from ToT/SoO.

    And why would I listen to complaints instead of finding out first hand? Which is what I'm doing. I miss the days when tanking was challenging and fun, and all these complaints made me think maybe something had changed and it was again. Honestly, I think the majority of it is just whining.

    That's my opinion based on my own experience. If you don't agree with it, doesn't matter, had sex.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by .Nensec View Post
    Mainly because those tank classes can also DPS.

    A wild push of blizzard would be to add a true protector class, one that can only tank and heal
    why include heal? why not make tanks totally worthless for anything but raiding? remove their damage component, leave nothing but threat and survivabilty and watch your tank numbers plummet even more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Actually, rather than asking that, "you" should probably shut up rather than remove all doubt about whether "you" are a complete ass.

    Because this game needs fewer complete asses.

    Bad players? Might be fine to get along with anyway. Complete asses? Not what I log in for.
    It tends to get my point across quicker than patting them on the back, baby sitting, or holding their hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    In this case it would mean tanks themselves are dicks and canabalize themself. Though admittedly I've seen other, more inexperienced tanks, be more than happy that I actually explained boss fights to them, instead if ignoring/insulting them, maybe alot of tanks are in fact dicks :P.

    Even the most calm mild mannered protection player will tend to become more dickish each time he is forced to work along side incompetence.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    why include heal? why not make tanks totally worthless for anything but raiding? remove their damage component, leave nothing but threat and survivabilty and watch your tank numbers plummet even more.
    I've said it before, but tanks should be viable, competitive DPS. Vengance should be a mechanic that the tank is actually involved in and has control over that he uses amidst his/her survival abilities to both stay alive and compete on "the meters" so to speak. I don't mean competitive with other tanks, I mean actually competitive DPS.

    Something along these lines:

    Vengance works with survival/mitigation abilities (it doesn't just blindly stack) and must be woven together to maximize and be competitive DPS. This would make the role more engaging and more fun in general. I know I'd tank again, and probably roll tank alts just to play a role like that instead of today's lifeless meatshield.

    Survival stats would still be the main focus, as they would be part of the vengance/mitigation weaving to maximize the DPS (so they wouldn't just be DPS classes who taunt a boss, so to speak). And boss fights would be created with tank DPS in mind.

    I think it would also get rid of some of the lesser tanks who do it because it's easy, and gain a lot more skilled players who are attracted to the competitive element.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post


    Even the most calm mild mannered protection player will tend to become more dickish each time he is forced to work along side incompetence.
    Incompetence in this case would not be misunderstanding parts of the fight. Incompetence would be unwilling to share information for the progression of the group. If you're not helping others who are willing to learn, that is a failure on your part, not theirs.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    Reading the dungeon journal often isn't enough; you have to actually see the fight to "get" how it really works. Even a fight like Immerseus for example, you can read the DJ and still not know how to know what direction Swirl is coming, how far it moves, when the puddle comes on you, how the adds spawn, etc. Watching a video can often help with that but do we really want to get into the notion that "You need to watch third party videos to do in-game content"? I think not. Videos are beyond helpful, naturally, but I don't think it should be required​, and especially not for LFR.

    in lfr the swirl will not kill you
    in lfr the puddle will not kill you
    in lfr spawns making it to the boss rarely kill you.

    so, yes you should be able to get a general grasp of the encounter from the dungeon journal and should have a firm grasp after the first time you have done it.

    I have found that the players jaw jacking and spouting out really bad advice is one of the worst things going on.

    And yes, I will admit that I go from zero to asshole in a very short time when some LFR hero starts trying to tell me how to accomplish a LFR boss that I have completed on normal or heroic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Another issue is that now you can queue up as a healer or as a dps with a healer and get a good fast queue while setting yourself to get tank gear so there is no reason to tank LFR when you can get the rewards of tanking without the hassle.
    in addition the fact that you still have people que up as a class they suck at in order to get the quick que and then on top of that do not even try to perform the roll they que for leaving the group as a whole at a minus.

    and tanks that que dps are kind of lame in my opinion. if you want to be a tank, be a tank.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Even the most calm mild mannered *SNIP* player will tend to become more dickish each time he is forced to work along side incompetence.
    I hate doing this to people, but had to change that for you.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Miuku View Post
    You know what the biggest problem with WoW is?

    It's the me-culture. My needs are the most important. _I_ do not want to do that. _I_ do not want to wait. _I_ must now get everything. Me, me, me it's all about me.

    And no this isn't aimed at you - just a generic observation of the modern society.
    the me culture is very strong in wow.

    the effort is too much to overcome a boss with the group you have? move to another group. it is that simple. people screw over other people on a daily basis, because they can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    You want more tanks in LFR? I'll be perfectly honest what myself and all of my tank friends think about LFR and ever going back. You DPS that think you're hot shit when you're not need to keep quiet, know your roles and execute because the DPS that are actually elite aren't usually the ones foaming at the mouth. It's the LFR heroes. Stop pissing off the tanks and healers and do your jobs and more tanks will be willing to join. Stop tunneling the wrong mobs or the boss when you should be on adds. Stop being AFK half of the time and for Gods sake, stop standing in shit.

    Change the attitude and the tanks will come back. It will take time and if Blizzard offered more incentive to get tanks actually wanting to do LFR, that should help out as well. No one is asking you to bow down to the will of the tanks but most of us aren't willing to put up with your crap when we can run Flex/Norm/Heroic content with guildmates or friends.

    If not, continue to sit and wait, and wait, and wait for a re roll tank to show up and maybe he/she will know enough to help get you through to the next encounter.
    well said ser. vivant
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  17. #417
    90% of the time when I had to do LFR, I did it on an alt with a gathering profession(only did LFR on main for the legendary stuff). So I had plenty of time in the week to gather all my stuff to craft my daily things throughout the whole week. So nps for me with a que time 30mins+

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by TaxmanCDN View Post

    1. There's a good chance my co-tank will be a window licker that uses taunt as part of his rotation.
    funny you should mention this particular thing. seemed that the entire tank community on the server I recently moved to had this concept of tanking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlehoff View Post
    FYI for LFR tanks have just as long a queue as DPS.

    if you want fast LFR queues, look to healers.
    FYI I have had an instant que to every LFR this expansion. So I guess that means all the DPS QQ is unfounded according to you.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    funny you should mention this particular thing. seemed that the entire tank community on the server I recently moved to had this concept of tanking.
    Thank you. It's so frustrating reading through these threads where tanks are hailed as some god send player because they're tanks. Just because your role is in short supply doesn't mean you're good at it, or even good enough at it to be considered bad.

    Like I've said before, I don't see tanks get yelled at often, and if they do, it's because they fucked up something REALLY basic.

    All the complaints from tanks on MMOC, I can't help but think to myself: It's probably because you're bad.

    It's just disrespectful to good tanks who earn their reputation as good tanks when people who think "being a tank" automatically entitles them to things or makes them "leaders." Very seldom have I ever seen a tank "leading" an LFR apart from pulling mobs.

    A note to good tanks: you have earned the respect you get, and you deserve it. Thank you for being good tanks.

    A note to the rest of you: stop complaining, take some responsibility for your role, take some pride in yourself and get better. Stop pointing fingers at everyone around you, the job isn't that hard, and in LFR a trained monkey could do it. Fuck.

    /rant

    Sorry you guys had to see me like that...
    Last edited by Louis CK; 2013-10-20 at 04:52 PM.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I don't necessarily agree with this either - you shouldn't ever go into a fight totally blind (outside of say if you are testing it on the PTR) but DJ/Videos should be supplementary. It shouldn't necessarily be required for LFR, or even for the typical (read: not "fast run") Flex raids. Normal and Heroic are IMO a different animal and you should make sure you are prepared. Nothing pisses me off like normal raiders just showing up and being expected to be told "stack on green; if you get <debuff> then run out" and do just that and only that, or have no idea about certain mechanics (perfect anecdote: last night we almost killed Galakras except when I said to stack up, people stacked up in a line and when I said if you get the fireball move out, people ran to the sides. IMO this is basic mechanics that people should know, not just expect to be told exactly what to do. And this was normal mode raiders in a almost all-guild 10M group, not a pug).

    The problem in LFR in general is that people don't care to try or even know anything about the encounter because the pervasive mentality is that it's LFR so mechanics don't matter; the issue is that in most cases mechanics DO matter. LFR is much more forgiving but there are still berserk timers, and there can still be oneshot mechanics (see Durumu and Elegon, among others). If everyone puts forth minimal effort, you won't defeat the encounter, but because "it's just LFR" is the mindset it usually means that you get folks expecting zero mechanics or, worse, mechanics they can stand in and be healed through.

    This isn't limited to DPS, but it's more common with DPS. Once in a while lately I've had quasi-AFK healers just standing there doing nothing, and my pet peeve is a co-tank who immediately says they've never been here (understandable) and have no idea of what they need to do (not so understandable). This is personally annoying because I don't queue as a tank unless I'm absolutely sure that I know what is going on (I didn't do LFR Durumu and co. for over a month because I wasn't sure what was actually going on in the fight and didn't want to cause a wipe); I don't mind explaining to a new tank but I would expect at least some tiny bit of looking at something before queuing, even if it's just the barest of knowledge (e.g. I don't really asking the second tank on Galakras "Do you want adds or towers?" and getting the reply be "no clue never been here b4"; I understand not watching a few videos or reading Icy Veins like I do, but don't go into something blind and expect to trial and error it).
    have to agree with you there nobleshield. the player who states that they refuse to watch a raid video or do some kind of preperation that I ask them will make it to about "I ref...." before I have made my decision to choose someone who will come prepared to the fight instead of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winduu View Post
    TLR - People are jerks.

    Here is my two cents on the matter.

    I ran ToT on LFR yesterday, just looking for a shield upgrade for my tank. The other tank was new, did not know the fights, but was very polite and we talked before each boss pull. We do the first and second boss in one pull, no problems, no deaths.

    Next we come to Lei Shein. We have one miscommunication on moving the boss, and raid damage results in a wipe.

    Cue the ensuing verbal harrasment that reads something like:

    "OMFG TANKS WTF WTF!!!"

    "Horrible tanks"

    "Effin' tanks make it harder for the rest of us"

    And so on, and so forth. The first tank and I chat in private, we discuss the issue. We pull again.

    This time he's positioned well, but for some reason a number of DPS and healers don't move to their pre-assigned groups, which I announced before both pulls, and they die in the second phase. Cue again the complaining, it sounds very similar to the first, though this time we had no fault in the matter.

    We rez, I announce groups for a third time, and after the pull, six dps and two healers still manage to die in the second phase because they don't move.

    We power through, and the remaining DPS is sufficient to beat the enrage timer.

    The other tank tells me he is never tanking again, that he hates being yelled at. I agree, it sucks, especially by a mass of people who can individually completely slack off and still move through. I'll keep tanking, but it's because I'm mainly moving into flex and normal with the guild and LFR is a good way to help my bad luck shield RNG.

    The simple matter is that there are more than enough tank classes, and Blizzard implementing two additional classes in DKs and Monks was a great move, but as long as you have 23/25 people in a raid able and willing to dump all over the tank, the emotional toll is going to keep out most people who can just as easily roll a DPS, wait in a long que, but not deal with the garbage that I went through last night.
    Well, you do have to admit that TOT LFR is OLD content and there is a certain expectation that it should have been learned in the months prior to SOO release.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaxmanCDN View Post
    This idea is not new.

    And all it would lead to is a bunch of fury warriors and ret paladins getting a tanking spec with no idea what they're doing, and then going in to tank LFR in a bunch of dps gear.
    exactly this. lets not encourage the derp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmfg View Post
    It's the difference between being a DPS and hearing "all the dps are terrible and should die in a fire" and thinking "well I did ok so they can't be yelling at me", and being a tank and hearint "<your name> is terrible and should die in a fire" and knowing that they are talking specifically about you and no one else.
    Easy fix. Don't be a bad tank.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

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