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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    As a tank I belive he is correct! The role is to protect the group and since there is only 2 of you to protect said group you better know wtf you are doing! If you want to take it easy and not have that stress then you can DPS (every class that is a tank has a dps spec they could use).

    You may see it as a full time job but I see it as playing the game properly and putting some time into your HOBBY instead of just rolling up and wasting other peoples time. If you want to play the "it's just a game not a job" card then by all means don't play the part of the game that involves other people and play how ever the hell you want no one will care!

    I really never got that argument... what other team hobby do people do yet do 0 reaserch in it or don't try to help the team by comming prepared? It's like some one being on a standby roster for a hockey team as a goalie then showing up with no glove, blocker,mask, or pads and just in regular forward/deff gear going "Ok I'm here I'm a goalie what do I do?" would you be ok with them going "lol it's ok it's just a game guys why so mad".
    The same can be said of all roles that they must be prepared etc etc etc.

    What that guy said goes beyond that, expecting TANKS to lead the raid by default? why the fuck should they? Some people just might like the tanking aspect not leading a group of 24 unknowns. Expecting them to assign DPS markers during fights or before them etc. Surely thats a raid leaders job or DARE I fucking say it the DPS job to assign dps priority targets as they should clearly know their role right? :P (being a little sarcastic here if you didnt notice!)

    I enjoy tanking and do not mind leading LFR raids I did raid leading for years anyway so is not something i've got a problem with. But expecting all tanks to do the same is harsh and not really justifiable. Sure expect the tank to know how to play the class. I would not hurt to know the fights either. I try to learn the fights in lfr on my healer first after watching a quick video. Once ive done it on the healer I jump on the tank and will still ask the other tank/raid about anything tank specific usually how many stacks etc.

  2. #482
    I'm back Jack!! Here is a very genius idea to get more people to tank. Just give them more incentives like 1000g/2x Valor Pts or anything related to gold/vp. The only catch for them is, they have to tank the whole wing. I'm the only Genius in here. i know!

  3. #483
    Stood in the Fire riptal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    As a tank I belive he is correct! The role is to protect the group and since there is only 2 of you to protect said group you better know wtf you are doing! If you want to take it easy and not have that stress then you can DPS (every class that is a tank has a dps spec they could use).

    You may see it as a full time job but I see it as playing the game properly and putting some time into your HOBBY instead of just rolling up and wasting other peoples time. If you want to play the "it's just a game not a job" card then by all means don't play the part of the game that involves other people and play how ever the hell you want no one will care!

    I really never got that argument... what other team hobby do people do yet do 0 reaserch in it or don't try to help the team by comming prepared? It's like some one being on a standby roster for a hockey team as a goalie then showing up with no glove, blocker,mask, or pads and just in regular forward/deff gear going "Ok I'm here I'm a goalie what do I do?" would you be ok with them going "lol it's ok it's just a game guys why so mad".
    So basically, you have your answer why you have 45 minutes wait for dps. The majority(that include the dps) doesnt want to "play the game properly" the way you want. I agree that you have some work to do to learn the fights, but that's not true that as a tank you're supposed to have way more work than the other roles. Healers should knows everything because they should be ready for damage burst. Dps should know when to move, when to dps or when to stop... No, it's not the way LFR and LFD is supposed to be. You should be able to learn while playing without enduring others sarcasm.

    The way you want to "play the game properly" is for Flex, normal and heroic mode, not for LFR! If Wow is more than a game for you, maybe you shouldnt be in LFR complaining about the tank. If you queued for LFR you should accept the fact that you could be with rookie and casual players without any experience and time for watching videos and read guide.
    Not sure if I'm a good guy but I'm working hard on it...

  4. #484
    Regardless of the reality, tanks are viewed by many as a role that requires more responsibility and/or skill, as opposed to the DPS role. WoW will probably always have fewer tanks than we'd like, for that reason.

    Also, and this is something I've seen quite often over the years...players are very rude to tanks. Not everyone, obviously, but I bet there are a lot of players who tried out tanking and then never tried it again due to encountering abusive or otherwise toxic players in instance groups.

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    The same can be said of all roles that they must be prepared etc etc etc.

    What that guy said goes beyond that, expecting TANKS to lead the raid by default? why the fuck should they? Some people just might like the tanking aspect not leading a group of 24 unknowns. Expecting them to assign DPS markers during fights or before them etc. Surely thats a raid leaders job or DARE I fucking say it the DPS job to assign dps priority targets as they should clearly know their role right? :P (being a little sarcastic here if you didnt notice!) .
    For 5 mans, questing, etc I fully agree but when it comes to raiding then you are actively participating in a group activity. LFR makes it a lot easier to get said group but the responsibility of the roles remains the same as any raid. As a tank you should know the basics of the fight to be able to tank it properly in any difficulty and as such in LFR as a tank you will on average know the fight better than most as such are the best candidate to lead the raid.

    Yes dps and healers Should be as informed but in general it's not so. That is why I like to look at raids like a hockey team!

    you got your goalies = tanks .. if they fuck up or are crap / don't know what there doing then GG your going to have a bad time!
    Defense = Healers - if they don't do there job the goalie might be able to save the day once in a while but on average bad D = the other team (boss) is gonna fuck you up!
    Offence = DPS they are there to produce numbers and they all want to have the most goals and focus generally on that... sure you might find that diamond in the rough DPS in lfr that is like an O player that back checks hard... but 99% of the time there just there to put up numbers!

    I'm not saying O doesn't have a responsibility to know wtf to do but if O is oblivious to what the other team does they can still focus on putting the puck in the net and be fine... if a goalie s oblivious as to who the snipers are and what kind of setup the other team uses there gonna get light up!

    Sure you can tank without looking into it that much however why would you pick a role that clearly will have a lot of focus on you if A) you don't like the focus and b) don't want to do the research to do the role properly?

  6. #486
    The issue is that tanking is the ONLY role where you are expected to do research outside the game and know exactly what to do when you zone in, and to top it off the others in the group will eat you alive if you mess up even if you've never actually done the fight before just watched videos or read guides, so even watching videos or reading guides may not prepare you (I know there has been MANY situations where I've read a guide to get an idea and still need to see the mechanic in action to really "get" it).

    That's why there's a shortage of tanks: You want tanks who might just do it on the side spend copious amounts of time researching the fight beforehand, but DPS (and healers to a lesser extent) can just queue up whenever and have a trial by fire. That doesn't sound a bit skewed to you? There is an imbalance here.

  7. #487
    Deleted
    I think the whole LFR Queue is bugged.
    Yesterday i queued with 2 Tanks for LFR.
    It took 10 minutes to find a second TANK!
    Everything was fine: 5/5 healer - 17/17 DD's but only 1/2 Tanks

    Nope, we just queued as tank, we didn't select a second role.

  8. #488
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riptal View Post
    . The way you want to "play the game properly" is for Flex, normal and heroic mode, not for LFR! If Wow is more than a game for you, maybe you shouldnt be in LFR complaining about the tank. If you queued for LFR you should accept the fact that you could be with rookie and casual players without any experience and time for watching videos and read guide.
    The way I want the game played has nothign to do with it at all! It's a raid be it flex, normal, heroic, or LFR! You can play whatever aspect of teh game you want to play it however as soon as you participate in a group activity then it should be expect that you will be prepared to do yoru part. Granted there should be more relaxed attitude in flex but the fact remains your a tank in a raid you should know the tanking responsabilities for said raid to ensure minimal whipes! That is one thing about flex that is horrid though... whipes tend to make people flip the fuck out...but it's a raid you are supose to wipe if you fuckup!

    As well wow is just a game for me I raid/play about 4 hours a week and jump in lfr and TANK it whenever I have some extra time. As such I generaly expect the other tank to know some general info on what were about to tank. Nothign more frustrating than tossing out a "do you want tower or stay for adds" on galak and getting NO responce or a "no idea what your talking about just tell me when to taunt" ... so frustrating...just que as dps if you want to mindlessly press buttons and not care! I mean if you have 45 min que as dps and want to get a fast que then you could que as dps...watch some vids read some guides while sitting in que as dps and then once you got a good understanding of what the basics are you can start to que as a tank.

    What you see as me complainign I see as common courtesy to the other 24 people you are tanking for!

  9. #489
    They've made all original tank-spec-bearing classes' tank spec actually viable (There was a time when you pretty much only ever brought a Warrior tank), and they've added two additional classes with tank specs. The popularity of tanking has not increased. It's not about class options. It's about the actual role of a tank. The tank is viewed as having the most responsibility of all roles in the game. Tanks have to know fights more intensely than healers or damage dealers. Tanks have to know how to react to various aspects of those fights immediately. On top of this, purely based on numbers, a raid group needs considerably fewer tanks than any other role. A lot of people don't even bother to learn how to tank well (because let's face it, you really don't need to know how to tank all that well for heroic 5-mans. As long as you can pump some damage, you should have no problem tanking a 5 man), because serious raid groups are rarely ever looking for tanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Novakhoro View Post
    I recommend shoulder surgery immediately... there's no way you didn't fuck it up with how hard you just reached.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by saucywench View Post
    When a player rolls a tank I expect them to know their role and execute it successfully, know the fights and yes explain it to the group if necessary, perform ready checks, use raid markers for attack order and do it all the time. 98% of the time none of these basic duties are being met, the tanks die and raid wipes happen, lfr groups fall apart and queues become long. Imho, raid designs need to deviate away from making 23 ppl suffer at the mercy of 2, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
    Why does it have to be the tanks that does this? 98% of the times these basic duties are not met because that is not the tanks's job. It is because other peoples are not willingly to take the role and just past it on to others.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    (There was a time when you pretty much only ever brought a Warrior tank),
    That time was B.C.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  12. #492
    I'm actually thankful I wasn't around for LFR. I was always a prot warrior as far as PvE went. I loved it, I actually hated DPSing in raids, but from what I've read in the past year or so since LFR went live, I can say I would have never queued just because of the mentality of the group.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Raintola View Post
    More bad tanks? Do not want.
    Why Would I want to tank for people like this? Raiding heroics on my Hunter, I tank for fun on an alt. I have had a decent enough time in LFRs, and cross realm groups. But this patch I don't need to deal with the toxic people in LFR who don't want to deal with basic raiding mechanics like threat. I have happily stayed out of LFR and found that I enjoy flex alot more.

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  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    For 5 mans, questing, etc I fully agree but when it comes to raiding then you are actively participating in a group activity. LFR makes it a lot easier to get said group but the responsibility of the roles remains the same as any raid. As a tank you should know the basics of the fight to be able to tank it properly in any difficulty and as such in LFR as a tank you will on average know the fight better than most as such are the best candidate to lead the raid.

    Yes dps and healers Should be as informed but in general it's not so. That is why I like to look at raids like a hockey team!

    you got your goalies = tanks .. if they fuck up or are crap / don't know what there doing then GG your going to have a bad time!
    Defense = Healers - if they don't do there job the goalie might be able to save the day once in a while but on average bad D = the other team (boss) is gonna fuck you up!
    Offence = DPS they are there to produce numbers and they all want to have the most goals and focus generally on that... sure you might find that diamond in the rough DPS in lfr that is like an O player that back checks hard... but 99% of the time there just there to put up numbers!

    I'm not saying O doesn't have a responsibility to know wtf to do but if O is oblivious to what the other team does they can still focus on putting the puck in the net and be fine... if a goalie s oblivious as to who the snipers are and what kind of setup the other team uses there gonna get light up!

    Sure you can tank without looking into it that much however why would you pick a role that clearly will have a lot of focus on you if A) you don't like the focus and b) don't want to do the research to do the role properly?
    Read Nobleshields post it sums it up perfectly.

  15. #495
    Group wipes and tank makes one mistake or zero mistakes, they are put up for vote kick almost immediately. DPS who are AFK or putting out sub 40k DPS are never kicked and if anyone calls them out, they band together and vote kick that person. So why would anyone want to ever tank in LFR for these worthless people? I made the call when LFR came out that I'd never tank it considering the way the worthless players verbally abuse tanks trying to learn the fights.

    I say flat out, every player who cares about WoW should avoid LFR. Leave it for the dregs of the community to wallow in. Every tier it becomes more and more a place for horrible narcissists and social misfits to abuse one another.

  16. #496
    Experienced/Better Geared players not running LFR is what is driving up the que times. I don't run LFR anymore on my main or alts. I do flex on my main helping my low lvl guildies get gear and in turn they run my alt through flex.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Renisis86 View Post
    Why Would I want to tank for people like this? Raiding heroics on my Hunter, I tank for fun on an alt. I have had a decent enough time in LFRs, and cross realm groups. But this patch I don't need to deal with the toxic people in LFR who don't want to deal with basic raiding mechanics like threat. I have happily stayed out of LFR and found that I enjoy flex alot more.


    It's funny, I wonder the same thing about bad tanks all the time. In LFR, bad tanks play at the same basic skill level as most of the other bad drooling mouthbreathers. This idea that "I rolled a tank, you have to respect me" is just ignorant.

    There occasionally tanks competent enough to stand there and let a boss hit him, occasionally taunting. There are occasionally tanks who can't tell which way is forward. But rarely are there tanks who can play at a level warranting this sense of entitlement I see so many in this thread expecting.

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus345 View Post
    Regardless of the reality, tanks are viewed by many as a role that requires more responsibility and/or skill, as opposed to the DPS role. WoW will probably always have fewer tanks than we'd like, for that reason.

    Also, and this is something I've seen quite often over the years...players are very rude to tanks. Not everyone, obviously, but I bet there are a lot of players who tried out tanking and then never tried it again due to encountering abusive or otherwise toxic players in instance groups.
    A common misconception is that playing a tank requires more skill than playing a dps/healer. Back before the massive changes to threat output and ability damage, the skill level of your tank(s) is what carried a raid. A significant part of the success of guilds such as <Death and Taxes>, <Nihilum>, and <Premonition> was because they had an amazing main tank, who made everyone else's role easier. In Cataclysm and MoP, having an amazing tank is much less imperative. If your tanks show up every raid, aren't lazy, and taunt every time the other tank has "x" number of debuffs, then you probably consider them "good," and with them your guild should be capable of progressing through content.

    My point is that it's much easier now for a tank, who would been subpar-average back in vanilla/tbc, to be considered competent now, in MoP. If it's just a misconception that's scaring people away from playing a tank, then perhaps Blizzard should work on alleviating that.

    As far as people being rude to tanks--that one can go the other way just as easily. I've seen just as many tanks believing themselves to be king of the peasants and being rude to others as I've seen others being rude to tanks, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a relationship that has been degrading ever since LFD was implemented, and there is no love lost among the roles.

  19. #499
    The Insane Kujako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brakez View Post
    A common misconception is that playing a tank requires more skill than playing a dps/healer.
    No, it's that playing a tank takes more skill then not playing a dps/healer. You don't need all the dps/healers to even be at their keyboards, you do however need the tanks.
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  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by mgs View Post
    All right my friends, I'm sure some of you will say that everything is fine, roll a tank, or make some other highly useful remark, but I came here to share my thoughts on what I believe should be Blizzard's priority #1 problem to solve. And no, it's not adding more vanity pets or mounts to the game.

    I've spent 45 mins in LFR queue last night as DPS. Then I got in, just to see a demoralized raid with 1 tank and a bunch of peeps jumping around on their mounts, one of whom was sharing a heart-breaking story about how he had to save 75k to buy an engineering rocket, and how he bought it in the end. Touching, truly.

    I've played this game for many years and I'm a big fan of Blizzard-drug, generally.

    I have 5 tanks and a bunch of other chars I like to casually play; I'm not a hardcore raider, in case it matters. I like LFR, when it's playable. I don't listen to idiots too much and zone out, doing my job, which I do very well.

    Understand that solving tanks problem is easier said than done (please save your breath trying to explain it to me, I'm with you on this one), but I still believe that Blizzard needs to:

    1. Allow warlocks to tank. They've given us a glyph, we are half-way there.
    2. Allow shamans to tank. They've given us shield and Rockbiter, we are half-way there.
    3. Allow hunters to tank. Probably a bit harder due to indirect pet control, but would be awesome.

    The only way to "solve the problem" is generate more interest for people to tank. That can be achieved through letting us explore one of our old dusty classes in a new capacity.

    I also believe the above would be easier to do for Blizz than invent a completely new class, and smarter in terms of player-base retention than ignoring the problem fully.

    Discuss if you want, I'm going to grab a coffee.
    The issue isn't that there aren't enough tanking specs. The issue is that tanking is not rewarded commensurate with the requirements to be successful (be the most knowledgable member of the raid, explain all roles in the fight, lead the raid, put up with jerkoff dps who can't stand someone leading, put up with underperfoming dps/healers, have iron for skin and be able to weather all the ridiculous "blame the tank" crap, general toxicity of LFR, etc).

    You want more people to tank LFR? Then it needs to be more rewarding. Frankly a 2/2 upgrade token per run (=500 VP, but doesn't count against the cap) when CTA is up would help. Or a bonus roll token for each CTA completed.

    A stupid bag with a gem, a pot, and barely enough gold to cover my repairs ain't gonna get me to come in from Flex.
    "I don't always play my warlock, but when I do, I prefer destruction."
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