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  1. #301
    Sorry if you didn't notice. The playable Forsaken are already undead humans.

  2. #302
    The Lightbringer Blufossa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    How will you feel about playing this kind of human on the horde, how do you feel it will affect the game?
    It's about as pointless as having more elves on Alliance side. No thank you.

    Arakkoa ftw!

  3. #303
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Digory Kirke View Post
    Sorry if you didn't notice. The playable Forsaken are already undead humans.
    And that's how it should remain.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    and if you didn't realize, yesterdays fanfic writers are todays creative development writers.
    Unless they end up in a gutter. Then we call them crazies.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Disreali View Post
    That's fair enough
    Still, this guy's going off about us getting sub races like it's guaranteed when we've yet to see a single thing indicating that's the direction Blizz is going in.


    No, it's not. What's dumb is to suggest that the central Alliance race become playable for the Horde. Are we going to open orcs up the Alliance next?


    Um...Alterac was destroyed precisely because it betrayed the Alliance and sided with the Horde. Not exactly a strong precedent for playable Horde humans, Sparky.


    It's established that Lordaeron humans who survived the Scourge invasion either remained loyal to the Alliance or joined the Scarlet Crusade. Neither faction being friendly towards the Horde. The Forsaken didn't even join the Horde out of any love towards it. It was purely an alliance of convenience.


    To the bolded part. No. Not really.
    To the rest of it, I'd guess that the majority of Horde players who had a real problem with blood elves in the Horde never really got around to seriously playing one. True, lots of Horde players do play them, but your logic of "people who don't like things will do them anyway" is so flawed it's laughable. And I'll promise you that more people would dislike playable Horde humans then they did playable Horde elves.


    Seriously dude? The Horde's pretty popular as is. At least half the player base plays it (which is as popular as any side should be in a faction-based MMORPG). I'd dare say that among end-game players the Horde's even a bit more popular then the Alliance. Why do you feel the Horde needs to be made more popular? It's extremely popular without humans.

    In short, No. No humans in the Horde please. It's a terrible idea. I'm not one of those people to say "IF BLIZZARD DOES X THE GAME WILL BE RUINED FOREVER" about every little thing, but this is one instance where I'll take that stand. Adding humans to the Horde will ruin the game forever.
    Disraeli, humans are already on the horde, and have played a part in the horde before, so playable living versions won't ruin the game, at all, lol.. like telling a developer they can't do what they want to their own product (when you phrase it like that)... if alterac siding with the horde in warcraft 2 didn't ruin it for you and forsaken joining the horde didn't ruin it for you, I cannot fathom how this would ruin it for you.

    you just don't like the idea, if it happened you'd bitch about it, but you won't stop playing, especially with the new TBC themed Warrriors of Draenor expansion, you'd possibly just ignore this sub-race or roll them for their emfh racial
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-11-03 at 03:16 PM.

  6. #306
    I think it's a bad idea to make current faction races cross faction, I'd rather keep faction identities distinct.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    I think it's a bad idea to make current faction races cross faction, I'd rather keep faction identities distinct.
    I think the point is that this isn't new. Panderans were cross faction race, but forsaken have always been on the horde, and humans have played a role in the horde from as early as WC2, you'd be correct if we were to have night elves on the horde, or orcs on the alliance, or in fact almost any other race apart from humans, pandas and blood elves - because those are already there

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think the point is that this isn't new. Panderans were cross faction race, but forsaken have always been on the horde, and humans have played a role in the horde from as early as WC2...
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Disraeli, humans are already on the horde, and have played a part in the horde before... if alterac siding with the horde in warcraft 2 didn't ruin it for you...
    You two need to lay off the "ALTERAC SIDES WITH THE HORDE THEREFORE HUMANS IN THE HORDE MAKE SENSE" nonsense. Alterac was destroyed because of its decision to align with the Horde. That does not, I repeat, does not, set a precedent for playable humans in the Horde today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    and forsaken joining the horde didn't ruin it for you...
    All of humanity declared war on the Forsaken the moment they became Undead. They're mostly undead humans, yes, but humanity itself has rejected them and would move against them to annihilate them if not for their alliance of convenience with the Horde. Zombie humans in the Horde? That's fine, that makes sense. Live humans in the Horde? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    you just don't like the idea...
    You're right, I don't. And your original post asked posters if they liked the idea. I'm responding by saying I don't like it. If you can't handle that then you shouldn't have asked the question on a public forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    you'd possibly just ignore this sub-race or roll them for their emfh racial
    Why do you keep assuming sub-races will be implemented in the next expansion? There's been nothing aside from fanboy conjecture pointing towards that as a possibility.
    And no, I wouldn't play a Horde human to get the racial. I have a human Paladin I use if I want to use that racial. I don't need one on the Horde side of things to get one. That's part of the game you know. You have to balance what you want- lore, character design, racial abilities, when choosing a faction. If you want EMFH you roll Alliance. If you want Warstomp you roll Horde. Simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    if it happened you'd bitch about it, but you won't stop playing, especially with the new TBC themed Warrriors of Draenor expansion...
    You can quote me on this, and you can hold me to this. I will quit WoW and never look back if they introduce live humans as a playable Horde race. I pay for the game via subscription cards anyway, and my current sub runs out in the middle of November. So I won't even have to wait that long to quit if this stupid idea is actually announced at BlizzCon (though I'm betting it won't be).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think the point is that this isn't new. Panderans were cross faction race, but forsaken have always been on the horde, and humans have played a role in the horde from as early as WC2, you'd be correct if we were to have night elves on the horde, or orcs on the alliance, or in fact almost any other race apart from humans, pandas and blood elves - because those are already there
    Ah, I see. So it's just fine to give the Horde the Alliance's most iconic race, but it would be a bad idea to give the Alliance the Horde's most iconic race. Gotcha. Doublethink sure is fun!

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I think the point is that this isn't new. Panderans were cross faction race, but forsaken have always been on the horde, and humans have played a role in the horde from as early as WC2, you'd be correct if we were to have night elves on the horde, or orcs on the alliance, or in fact almost any other race apart from humans, pandas and blood elves - because those are already there
    That relationship consisted of Perenolde saying to Doomhammer 'we'll let you through our mountain passes to attack Lordaeron if you leave our kingdom alone.' Hardly a precedent for humans joining the Horde, especially considering the current state of Alterac, and the Syndicate being hostile to the orcs and forsaken.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    That relationship consisted of Perenolde saying to Doomhammer 'we'll let you through our mountain passes to attack Lordaeron if you leave our kingdom alone.' Hardly a precedent for humans joining the Horde, especially considering the current state of Alterac, and the Syndicate being hostile to the orcs and forsaken.
    the point is it isn't new, nor is it foreign, it's always been around.. or do you think that living horde humans won't have a very compelling story behind their availability? The forsaken prove that you don't even have to have a good one, or did you see a book written on why the forsaken joined the horde or the night elves the alliance? It needed to happen, they wanted it to happen, they made it happen they gave a reason.

    The precedent isn't always the story, and the story can be written however you want, you just need to be very creative. They can introduce forsaken living humans in a way that would not ever make you think twice they had anything to do with the alliance or were connected in anyway.

    And for those who think that some undead coming living again is preposterous.. that's just plain hypocritical, because it isn't anymore preposterous than having a plague that causes a condition called undeath or being able to create fireballs in your hand and hurl them at people. It's fantasy for a reason, where's the limit?

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The real reason behind this is because humans are far too popular & are the reason the alliance numbers keep beating the horde almost 60:40 people (esp new subs) keep picking humans despite all efforts made to make horde much more attractive.

    I laughed.
    Last edited by glycerethe; 2013-11-03 at 06:54 PM.

  12. #312
    The only humans who ever "sided" with the Horde did so out of self-preservation, and never even took up arms for the Horde. And that was enough for the other human kingdoms to destroy them. It does not set a precedent for humans in the Horde at all.
    It's a stupid idea and it would take Horde bias to a whole new level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    the point is it isn't new, nor is it foreign, it's always been around...
    Always been around? No. You had Alterac. Which never really joined the Horde anyway, and was destroyed for even siding with them in what little they did. What humans joined the Horde between then and now? The Forsaken? Nope, they don't count. Humans view them as something to be eradicated, not members of their own race. And the Forsaken see themselves as their own race. So no, humans have not "been part of the Horde since WCII." That statement is factually incorrect. So you and ravenmoon need to stop saying it.

    or do you think that living horde humans won't have a very compelling story behind their availability?
    I think the idea is so stupid that any idea they come up with to justify it in the lore will be equally as stupid and enough to get me to walk away from the game for good.

    The precedent isn't always the story...
    That's great. You and ravenmoon go on and on about Alterac setting a precedent for humans in the Horde, and then you say precedent doesn't matter once it's pointed out to you that Alterac doesn't set any kind of precedent.
    Last edited by Disreali; 2013-11-03 at 06:25 PM.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Disreali View Post
    I think the idea is so stupid that any idea they come up with to justify it in the lore will be equally as stupid and enough to get me to walk away from the game for good.
    if you think that's stupid, why are you still into this game? you don't have to look far to see the amount of "stupid" things in it, quite ridiculous actually judging by your standards.. oh wait you're going to try and tell me you don't play the game for the lore.. then what would it matter to you if playable humans were around or not and the story behind them? Or are you going to try and explain every lore decision as sane but some how develop myopia when it comes to this?

    - - - Updated - - -

    it seems a neat way to tie up the balance issues, coming from a neutral perspective and taking a birds eye view, I figure that living humans on the horde is no where as far-fetched as it sounds at first.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    if you think that's stupid, why are you still into this game? you don't have to look far to see the amount of "stupid" things in it, quite ridiculous actually judging by your standards.. oh wait you're going to try and tell me you don't play the game for the lore.. then what would it matter to you if playable humans were around or not and the story behind them? Or are you going to try and explain every lore decision as sane but some how develop myopia when it comes to this?
    I think you're creating a notion for him. He never said he didn't think things in the game were stupid. He only said that he believes living Humans on Horde-side is so stupid that it warrants his leave from the game. Obviously he cares enough about the lore for this to affect him.

    Also, I don't get your reply. You didn't argue anything against his lore argument, but just attacked his personal view on the matter.

    As for balance, there are many things that can happen to make the game more balanced (population-wise) rather than making living Forsaken Humans (which is a contradiction as a whole). From a subjective standpoint, it seems that Humans are the most popular race on the Alliance because they are really the only Alliance race with a superb PvP racial. Their looks don't seem to be making an impact on their playability, only the racial.

  15. #315
    Thank you cmats4020!

    I do care about the lore, hence why I feel strongly about humans in the Horde being less then desirable.
    And no, I never said the game's been perfect up until now. It's had its fair share of missteps. Some bigger then others. Nothing they've done up until now, however, is as stupid as adding humans to the Horde would be.

    As for balance, again it comes down to that being a part of game play. When you decide what faction and race you're main will belong to you need to consider everything, including racials. You want EMFH? You play Alliance. It's part of the game play. Simple as that. Given the Horde's PVP dominance it's clear they're not missing it either.
    And you keep going on about balance like it needs to be fixed ravenmoon. It really doesn't. The Alliance is the overall more popular faction, but the Horde seems to have an edge when it comes to end-game players. So it's pretty balanced as it is.

    All humans in the Horde would accomplish would to to ruin the lore and add to the already long list of complaints Alliance fans complain about because you've just stripped the exclusivity away of their most iconic and widely-played race. Nothing good comes from it.
    Last edited by Disreali; 2013-11-04 at 03:43 AM.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by cmats4020 View Post
    I think you're creating a notion for him. He never said he didn't think things in the game were stupid. He only said that he believes living Humans on Horde-side is so stupid that it warrants his leave from the game. Obviously he cares enough about the lore for this to affect him.

    Also, I don't get your reply. You didn't argue anything against his lore argument, but just attacked his personal view on the matter.

    As for balance, there are many things that can happen to make the game more balanced (population-wise) rather than making living Forsaken Humans (which is a contradiction as a whole). From a subjective standpoint, it seems that Humans are the most popular race on the Alliance because they are really the only Alliance race with a superb PvP racial. Their looks don't seem to be making an impact on their playability, only the racial.
    it's really pointless having lore arguments on development threads, because you create the lore to execute your change.

    what's the point arguing about undead can't be cured, or humans can't be on horde when you can just simply write it to be so if you need them to be there to make your game work better? They've done this countless times, yes they change lore for gameplay...druids are no longer male and night elf only, blood elvs are on the horde, night elves cast and use magic, shaman and warlocks are on the alliance, .. hell the forsaken joined the horde, and the night elves joined the alliance.. see my point?

    one can only expose a problem, identify a plasuible solution, and suggest it's execution and in this case the potential lore that can be written. As for the precedents I bring up with regards to humans on the horde, they are merely to break you into the idea and show you that it's not as strange as it sounds, it's there but has been packaged in a way you may not notice it, but that's essentially what it is.

    I could reverse to pre forsaken annoucnement and said
    "how would you feel if hummans were playable on the horde" -- okay, but these are not your garden type humans, these are were the ones slain by the plague and raised undead, you play a zombie human - just like i made a post about htis or about vampires.. wanna bet the reaction would have been identical to these posts if not even more opposed?

    it's a reason why blizzard don't offer their plans for public discussion for the fans to decide whether it should be or not, they just announce and run with it.

    I appreciate what you are saying Cmats4020, and Disreali you too, I did ask for your views and how you would feel, I need to get persistent sometimes just really to try and make sure you've viewed all the angles trying to get a genuine opinion - i don't always get that, in fact I rarely do, an dhave to porbe and dig a bit. I know some people may find that offensive, like i'm questioning their ability to understand, but they shoudln't take it so personally, it's a game forum, I have no idea how engaged my reader is, and can only respond based on what he says.. so if he gives me a "NO, NO, no" response or a "what an idiotic, stupid idea, shove it up your a**hole" kind of response, well you can see my intellectual curiousity is not satisfied.

    anyway.. I can appreciate how hard it is to swich perspectives or see thigns through a different lense, , and not everyone is good at that, I appreciate it and tend to come at responders from that angle, - it may be I use too many words and end up confusing people more, I apologise, but I hope you get the jist.

    Finally I also appreciate all said and done, understanding everythig I've talkked about, you may not agree and may not like the idea anyway. You could easily have been one of the ones that didn't like the idea of the blood elves joinig the horde, or paladins going both factions, or the night elves joining the alliance etc etc.

    at the end of the day, I doubt anyone would quit of this, why shouldthey quit over something already there and that is only a small part of the game even though it's introduction is engineered to have a big changeto the game and not necessarily the lore (blood elves had a huge impact on the game,namely horde numbers, but their lore impact was very small utnil it started picking up again in MoP), living human forsaken likewise are just one sub-group out of at least 10 and possibly 20, there are tons of other choices about that could have a barely minimum effect on the lore, that's not to say the lore introducing them won't be engaging and interesting and compelling, but hey, sub-races are not going to get the exposure a full race get, and there is an expansion theme here, sub-races give depth to the individual races, it's not like when a new full race like draenei/Belf/Worgen/Goblin or panderian were introduced where it was much more than just introducing them, they had massive roles to play in each o those expansions, now you're dealing with 10 sub-races, the lore approach is going to be different, you're not going to have forsaken humans the main focus of the horde , which is what you may be thinking is happening here.

    Anyway, big lore developments can happen that have very little effect or impact, their big yes, some of them told well, others barely mentioned, but for all the "big"ness to a fans mind it may have had, look what effect it had overall? e.g.look how much effect on the lore night elves leraning arcane magic has had with lore? You really do write it as you go along based on the needs you have..something that may seem a big deal to a long term fan might not be to adeveloper or the really be taht much of a deal in the long run.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2013-11-04 at 05:19 AM.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Disreali View Post
    All humans in the Horde would accomplish would to to ruin the lore and add to the already long list of complaints Alliance fans complain about because you've just stripped the exclusivity away of their most iconic and widely-played race. Nothing good comes from it.
    How would it ruin lore? or do you mean it would ruin it for you, why?
    Actually I think it would have a very positive effect on the alliance, and the way you present them would determine how they are perceived.

  18. #318
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    WC2 shows a fairly solid alliance between Alterac and the Horde:
    Following the battle at Caer Darrow, a number of renegade Alterac soldiers were captured. A crew of Alterac sailors were also caught assisting the Horde during the battle and have been placed under close guard.
    And
    Lord Lothar sends word that the Alliance has been betrayed. Lord Perenolde - sovereign ruler of Alterac - has been working with the Horde since the beginning of the war. It was Perenolde who provided the Orcs with the routes of the Elven strikeforce passing through Tarren Mill. The rebellion at Tyr's Hand was also started by Alterac spies in hopes of concealing the Orcish mining facility located there. The High Command has decreed that the nation of Alterac has committed treason against the Alliance and their union with the Orcish Hordes must be broken.


    The novel Tides of Darkness only describes Perenolde's non-aggression treaty and directing his forces away from the Horde's route.
    “The situation has changed,” Perenolde informed him, aware that he was sweating heavily—and that his officers had noticed. “I have reconsidered our options, and have decided to realign ourselves in the conflict. Alterac is no longer a part of the Alliance, effective immediately.” He took a deep breath. “Believe me, we are far better off this way.”
    The officers all looked surprised. “How do you mean, your Majesty?” Kavdan asked.
    I have formed a nonaggression treaty with the Horde,” Perenolde replied. “We will not hinder their progress through the mountains, and in return they will leave Alterac unharmed and untouched.”
    ...
    “But they are not incapable of reason. I met with their leader. He spoke Common! He listened, and he agreed to leave us in peace if we do not hinder their passage.”



    In Beyond the Dark Portal, Perenolde is assists the Horde to reclaim his kingdom's independence:
    “During the war, you formed a treaty with the Horde.”
    “Yes?” Perenolde made the connection. “Yes!” he said quickly. “Yes, I did. With Doomhammer himself! I was an ally! I am on your side!
    ...
    “I have the book,” he admitted. “Or rather, I had it stolen from Stormwind and I know where it is.” He brushed absently at the wine stain on his sleeping clothes. “I thought I might need it as a bargaining chip. The Alliance has claimed my throne and my kingdom because I helped your kind in the last war.”
    ...
    Perenolde considered. “I will give you the book…for a favor.” The rider did not speak, but something in his bearing indicated he was still listening. “The Alliance has stationed troops here in my kingdom, to watch me and to control me. Destroy them, and the book is yours.”
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-11-04 at 10:14 PM.

  19. #319
    I wouldn't let anyone who played a human into my raid groups.

    I hate their models with a burning passion.

  20. #320
    Are you still on about this shit? Seriously?! Just drop it and never talk about it again!

    If people are so vain and superficial that they need to be catered to by being able to play as a human no matter the faction they pick they might as well not pick up the game in the first place. Blizzard should make no effort to reach and satisfy these people in the first place because they're obviously vain enough to disregard an almost 20 year old story line if there's actually people doing what you're founding your entire thesis round.

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