How would you feel if humans became playable on the horde

[Halicia]

I'd be all for subraces being added to the opposite faction.

The Defias have a legitimate axe to grind against the Alliance...

[Verain]

Whatever it takes to get high elves.

[ravenmoon]

nah, I just like the old convention of the Horde known from WC RTS. Forsaken are the cool addition and fits to ugly Horde and BElfs are cool Alliance race in Horde. But about Forsaken Humans it would destroy image of the Horde for me. I dont like the idea of 2nd pretty race in Horde because its how I think of the Horde. Yes they are already in the Horde but under zombie form and thats why they fit in Horde for me.
And I don't like the idea of cured forsaken because I love Forsaken and my main is Forsaken and I chose Forsaken because they are Forsaken.

I dont say that its impossible, I just say that I dont like this idea of cured forsaken.

sadly it doesn't work, people won't play horde without the pretty, anyway, I stopped thiking horde had to be the ugly because that was what it was majorly in the RTS series, but even in that they made exceptions when Alterac partenered. it works fro subs going horde which this game desperately needs. Anyway I had enivisioned forsaken humans as one of roughly 20 new playbele racial faction, in a game where each race had roughly 2 or 3 racial factions.. that is one of the other factions that we can't play, an additional group that looks a bit different but still part of the race's faction eg.. Orc race group would be Mag'har orc, durotar Orc and Drgaonmaw Orc - Forsaken would be undead forsaken, human forsaken, and forsaken elf.

the point being you don't lose the ability to play undead, you just gain the choice of using a human model.

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It would make no sense at all. Wasn't Warcraft in its early stages mostly focussed 'Orcs vs Humans'? So from a lore standpoint it would be very weird.

Gameplay as well. There are hardly any differences between factions outside of cosmetics, as it is.

not when you think of forsaken as humans, they are undead humans, some of them becoming living again through some event/scenario doesn't make them any less horde. And warcraft stopped being about Orc Vs Humans after warcraft 1, remember Alterac partnered with the horde in Wc2 and that didn't detract from the Orc vs Humans focus. I stopped thinking it would be weird from a lore standpoint because the lore already made a place for it when the forsaken joined the horde.

it would definitely be good for the gameplay, with human models playable on the horde, it would bring the balance between the two factions that has eluded wow, and normalize it. ANd as for hardly any differences between the factions outside cosmetics, well, that's been the case for a while, not many people want to play a violent murderous ror evil group, so the horde has to not look like that. And besides you can write a good conflict for both sides, and have good and evil people on both sides. humans on the horde will allow fans to better identify with the faction and they don't have to be like the alliance, doesn't mean they have to be evil, but they don't have to be like them, the forsaken already have a character/personality, theme about it that is very different from their living alliance counterparts, having living versions of themselves shouldn't change that lore wise

[Mace]

Whatever it takes to get high elves.

probably that. 2 things about high elves.

1. it's not the same as having blood elves available on the horde - it is having the blood elf model accessible to the alliance - blood elf players hate this, they get jealous over this. it's not just like their fave race becoming avail to their enemies, it's worse, the other faction gets access to the beautiful model they're very possessive over, but get the other faction of the race they view as douche bags.

2. You couldn't give high elves as separate full playable race like blood elves were introduced - because alliance already outnumbers horde despite horde having better racials, cooler races, better story lines, better plots, more stories recently, better quests, cooler stuff - have you not noticed how pro horde the game has been for the last 7 years? This has been to get the sides even becaue the majority keep choosing alliance.. you need to realize how the 2-faction system at it's core and the franchise itself depends on both factions having even support. Give blood elf models to the alliance as high elves, you'd lose a lot of the blood elf population or at least might, giving the hordes only pretty option to the enemy. Bad move for balance. Alliance is always ahead in numbers because they have humans, and that's what most people play. It pre-disposes epic stories to alliance as well because this is what the public will identify with - make a movie witht he two sides fighting, they'll always view themselves as human. Which is why I support humans being available on the horde, and agree with the arguments that they don't have to be alliance humans switching side, but they do need to be humans. Until that happens, high elves available on the alliance won't happen.

3. Sub race: you cannot introduce horde forsaken humans or high elves as new playable races, because they're not, so you can't launch them like Draenei/Blood Elves or Goblin/Worgen or Panderan. They are racial factions of playable races. High elves are a racial faction of night elves of which they and the blood elves really are an off shoot race kinda like whites come from blacks (or you could say humans instead of night elves since they're really tied to stormwind and Dalaran atm). Forsaken humans would also be a racial faction of the Forsaken race group which could consist of undead forsaken, living human forsaken and forsaken elves. Orcs could have Durotar orcs, Mag'har orcs and Dragonmaw orcs as their 3 racial factions and likewise for pretty much every race.

only in this setting I can envision playable high elves, as one group of 10 or 20 new playable race factions

So would you still want to play as a high elf if the new Human and night elf models were really good and sexy --not goofy and flimsy like they are now? Including animations?? Think about it. B/c tbh, I think the biggest motivation by far atm, for playable high elves is the desire for the model.

[TheDangerZone]

Gameplay: It would greatly help balance the factions; that most players prefer to play human it's an undeniable fact from an statistical perspective.

Lorewise: It can be pulled off, but it's not really something I want to see. There's precedent, sure, but I still think it would slightly betray the premise of warcraft. But I really don't want to be a nay sayer when the pros are so very tangible. Getting bact to the precedent, Alterac: Now that the city is in practically ruins and surrounded by forsaken territory, the horde could strike a deal with the remaining population instead of exterminating or converting them, and extend and "invitation" to all the humans still present on Lordaeron and that might feel neglected by the alliance to gather under the banner of Alterac and fight for the horde. If they want to live.

Sylvanas would get so mad. More so if Vol'jin gave them the option to sign DNR orders.

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It still doesn't make sense to have Humans playable even if there were lore created to explain it. There is nothing to satisfy from a game design perspective, and it adds nothing to the Horde's identity when you give them playable humans. Even Blood Elves was questionable, but the design was purely to bring players over to the Horde by introducing a 'pretty' race. Prior to the Blood Elves, the playerbase was heavily skewed towards the Alliance, namely Human and Night Elf players.

What does adding Humans satisfy for the Horde? Relatively little story-wise, and almost none gameplay-wise. There is no reason why this should be done. It would be more interesting to introduce sub-races or new races, as many have said in this very thread.

That's just no true man; most players chose human, that's just statistics. Making humans playable for the horde would definitely help overall balance.

[ravenmoon]

Gameplay: It would greatly help balance the factions; that most players prefer to play human it's an undeniable fact from an statistical perspective.

Lorewise: It can be pulled off, but it's not really something I want to see. There's precedent, sure, but I still think it would slightly betray the premise of warcraft. But I really don't want to be a nay sayer when the pros are so very tangible. Getting bact to the precedent, Alterac: Now that the city is in practically ruins and surrounded by forsaken territory, the horde could strike a deal with the remaining population instead of exterminating or converting them, and extend and "invitation" to all the humans still present on Lordaeron and that might feel neglected by the alliance to gather under the banner of Alterac and fight for the horde. If they want to live.

Sylvanas would get so mad. More so if Vol'jin gave them the option to sign DNR orders.

The forsaken are one of the most interesting groups in wow, the story potential is really good there as it stands, and whiles you're right, they culd do it another route, don't you think finally having some sort of cure for undead would be exciting and make the story even more interesting? it doesn't have to be an available process, it could be a one time freak event that causes that, maybe it hit a fairly large group of foraken and caused their bodies to live again - can you imagine how you could spin a tale if Sylvannas was one of those restored or if she was not - given that she now has nearly half of her group living again?

another story spin could have some sort of cure discovered both by the alliance humans and forsaken (maybe it was leaked by a mysterious 3rd party/person who's agenda is to be revealed). the forsaken perfected it first and used it to infiltrate the alliance ranks, but the allinace successfully weaponized it befor ethe under cover agents could foil that (they did't blow their cover though). Alliance used it on all northern eastern kingdoms thinking it will make them all huamn and they'd overnight gain all that territory and deprive the horde of their strongest eastern kingdom contingent. They got a nasty shock when it turned out not every foraken was made living flesh, and those that did, wanted nothing to do withi the alliance but destroy them for trying to wipe them out while they were in undeath.

I could go on - imagine the exciting story you could weave on the cure itself or the one time event that causes the change.. who found it, where'd it come from, could range from mysterious incident like a time paradox explosion involving the bronze flight, some how merged pre plague humans with their post plague counterparts - it was a plan the executor hoped to totally eliminate undeath with, but what it did was bring flesh only to the undead that were made so by the WC3 time line - not those that came after, and only those that had their soul in tact managed to live, the remaining scourge that got their bodies from the past merged with the present have no mind in the present, tehrefore the bodies just roam like mindless zombies, maybe controlled by the lich king, but now breaking their neck kills them, becuase one othe side effects of this accident is somehow the inability to be made undead again.

or you could have it coming as a result of Cenarius and the druids, or somehting to do wtih the aspects, thrall and malfurion or well of eternrity waters or Panderan vale of eternal blossoms water of life. take your pick

you have to admit though, it can be a very exciting tale if told well and very believable too, nothing alliancey about it. it also generates exciting prospects. The restored to human forsaken though still forsaken coudl actually provide the sort of good side or wing to the forsaken - not all human forsaken would be good off course or end up being good, just like not all undead forsaken are evil. But it does expand the repetoire of the race group. One of the things I really like about this sub-races/racial factions being playable idea. You may never have played orc b/c you dn't like what they are/history but you may play the Mag'har orc that while orc, are different, more honourable/good. Same with the human forsaken, nothing to say you can't write them in as loyal and actually likeable in a badass way not a soppy way, honourably good...mostly

[Deleted]

OP is one of those guys that absolutely doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about

[Invictus9001]

that's not the response i'm looking for

1. How do you feel about it?
2. Why do you feel that way?
3. How do you think it will affect the game?

1. I hope it never happens. If it does, I may race-change all my characters to Undead just to protest. Seriously.
2. I have a general disdain for humanity in real life. While it may be true not all humans are bad/evil, I'd honestly want a Death Note to sort out the bad apples. (Yes, I went there.)
3. Human might become FotM for race-purposes in PVP, but when people got tired of doing the Macarena, they'd switch back.

[Mace]

you have to admit though, it can be a very exciting tale if told well and very believable too, nothing alliancey about it. it also generates exciting prospects. The restored to human forsaken though still forsaken coudl actually provide the sort of good side or wing to the forsaken - not all human forsaken would be good off course or end up being good, just like not all undead forsaken are evil. But it does expand the repetoire of the race group. One of the things I really like about this sub-races/racial factions being playable idea. You may never have played orc b/c you dn't like what they are/history but you may play the Mag'har orc that while orc, are different, more honourable/good. Same with the human forsaken, nothing to say you can't write them in as loyal and actually likeable in a badass way not a soppy way, honourably good...mostly

racial factions (or sub races if you prefer) make every race a lot more interesting, involving them as playable options puts a lore focus and advancement on each race by default, something players have been asking for for a while.

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OP is one of those guys that absolutely doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about

now you can't just say that without explaining why. He has given his reasoning for his thoughts.

[ravenmoon]

OP is one of those guys that absolutely doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about

this makes no sense, how does explaining how you feel or what you think make no sense? I think it's quite sensible to have feelings or thoughts on any topic.

1. I hope it never happens. If it does, I may race-change all my characters to Undead just to protest. Seriously.
2. I have a general disdain for humanity in real life. While it may be true not all humans are bad/evil, I'd honestly want a Death Note to sort out the bad apples. (Yes, I went there.)
3. Human might become FotM for race-purposes in PVP, but when people got tired of doing the Macarena, they'd switch back.

ever thought of having a different world view on this? people can change, go from evil to good. Sure it takes a miracle, nothing short of an act of God, but changing people's lives is gotta be worth it right? no one had an effect on you that at least started changing most of your decisions from evil ones to good ones?

[Invictus9001]

ever thought of having a different world view on this? people can change, go from evil to good. Sure it takes a miracle, nothing short of an act of God, but changing people's lives is gotta be worth it right? no one had an effect on you that at least started changing most of your decisions from evil ones to good ones?

That's a great leap in logic, that simply because I don't like the tendencies most of humanity shows equates to me all of a sudden making evil decisions. Glad I didn't waste $200 an hour for THAT diagnosis. :P I make great decisions every day. I guard myself against being taken advantage of, I stand up for myself when someone tries to utterly squat on me (metaphorically speaking), and as a result I have a core group of friends I would not be ashamed at all of standing back-to-back with in any fight and helping them.

If you wish to bother discussing this any further, take it to PM. I'm not going to hijack this thread.

[Eats Compost]

I, personally, think it's high time that the Horde and Alliance became political affiliations, not race-bound groups. The "I like/hate them because they're race X" thing is way past its prime with all the neutral factions dancing around these days. Create two groups with rival ideals and make race a secondary consideration.

A straight-out difference in ideology as the prime factor in the war between the Alliance and Horde would, I feel, be more compelling than the race war going on right now.

[ravenmoon]

That's a great leap in logic, that simply because I don't like the tendencies most of humanity shows equates to me all of a sudden making evil decisions. Glad I didn't waste $200 an hour for THAT diagnosis. :P I make great decisions every day. I guard myself against being taken advantage of, I stand up for myself when someone tries to utterly squat on me (metaphorically speaking), and as a result I have a core group of friends I would not be ashamed at all of standing back-to-back with in any fight and helping them.

If you wish to bother discussing this any further, take it to PM. I'm not going to hijack this thread.

sorry about that, it was a bit of a leap, true, I was moved by what you said and sure, taking it further in PM is a good idea.

[MrKnubbles]

I would just really like to give them Worgen instead.

[TheDangerZone]

The forsaken are one of the most interesting groups in wow, the story potential is really good there as it stands, and whiles you're right, they culd do it another route, don't you think finally having some sort of cure for undead would be exciting and make the story even more interesting? it doesn't have to be an available process, it could be a one time freak event that causes that, maybe it hit a fairly large group of foraken and caused their bodies to live again - can you imagine how you could spin a tale if Sylvannas was one of those restored or if she was not - given that she now has nearly half of her group living again?

another story spin could have some sort of cure discovered both by the alliance humans and forsaken (maybe it was leaked by a mysterious 3rd party/person who's agenda is to be revealed). the forsaken perfected it first and used it to infiltrate the alliance ranks, but the allinace successfully weaponized it befor ethe under cover agents could foil that (they did't blow their cover though). Alliance used it on all northern eastern kingdoms thinking it will make them all huamn and they'd overnight gain all that territory and deprive the horde of their strongest eastern kingdom contingent. They got a nasty shock when it turned out not every foraken was made living flesh, and those that did, wanted nothing to do withi the alliance but destroy them for trying to wipe them out while they were in undeath.

I could go on - imagine the exciting story you could weave on the cure itself or the one time event that causes the change.. who found it, where'd it come from, could range from mysterious incident like a time paradox explosion involving the bronze flight, some how merged pre plague humans with their post plague counterparts - it was a plan the executor hoped to totally eliminate undeath with, but what it did was bring flesh only to the undead that were made so by the WC3 time line - not those that came after, and only those that had their soul in tact managed to live, the remaining scourge that got their bodies from the past merged with the present have no mind in the present, tehrefore the bodies just roam like mindless zombies, maybe controlled by the lich king, but now breaking their neck kills them, becuase one othe side effects of this accident is somehow the inability to be made undead again.

or you could have it coming as a result of Cenarius and the druids, or somehting to do wtih the aspects, thrall and malfurion or well of eternrity waters or Panderan vale of eternal blossoms water of life. take your pick

you have to admit though, it can be a very exciting tale if told well and very believable too, nothing alliancey about it. it also generates exciting prospects. The restored to human forsaken though still forsaken coudl actually provide the sort of good side or wing to the forsaken - not all human forsaken would be good off course or end up being good, just like not all undead forsaken are evil. But it does expand the repetoire of the race group. One of the things I really like about this sub-races/racial factions being playable idea. You may never have played orc b/c you dn't like what they are/history but you may play the Mag'har orc that while orc, are different, more honourable/good. Same with the human forsaken, nothing to say you can't write them in as loyal and actually likeable in a badass way not a soppy way, honourably good...mostly

Yeah, that too.

Still 2 points I don't really like tho:

1- Making the humans "the good side barring exceptions". That morally loaded approach doesn't suit well with me because the only difference is their state, contrasting with your maghar/orc comparison, where there are cultural differences due to separation. And even between those two groups there isn't a gradation of morality; one of the worst maniacs of warcraft was a maghar orc.

The idea of making the living forsaken "more good" than their undead counterparts is unnecessary and carries unfortunate and unavoidable racial undertones. If there is going to be a separation of "good forsaken" it would be more poignant, in my opinion, if it had equal representation from both groups. I mean, morality should not be dictated by biological differences, or lack of function.

A forsaken somehow becoming living again shouldn't change their morality as a consequence.

2- The aesthetics. By making them "ressurected" undead and part of the forsaken, their aestetics would be the same as the forsaken. If we are going to add a race from the other side, it's big enough to warrant some aesthetic flavor.

It's like if we added high elves, they are culturally different enough to warrant some Dalaran inspired spires; even if they'd be gameplay wise based on an existing race, they would have their own "flavor". That's one of teh things I like about the sub-factions idea: by bringing in these satellite races, you bring their aesthetics (which are already present in the game) cause that's the point of sub-factions to me, more customization and more flavor. By making playable humans merely a part of the forsaken, they are part of their culture. In that case, I'd rather have Alterac humans with human aesthetics that bring something else.

[ravenmoon]

Yeah, that too.

Still 2 points I don't really like tho:

1- Making the humans "the good side barring exceptions". That morally loaded approach doesn't suit well with me because the only difference is their state, contrasting with your maghar/orc comparison, where there are cultural differences due to separation. And even between those two groups there isn't a gradation of morality; one of the worst maniacs of warcraft was a maghar orc.

The idea of making the living forsaken "more good" than their undead counterparts is unnecessary and carries unfortunate and unavoidable racial undertones. If there is going to be a separation of "good forsaken" it would be more poignant, in my opinion, if it had equal representation from both groups. I mean, morality should not be dictated by biological differences, or lack of function.

A forsaken somehow becoming living again shouldn't change their morality as a consequence.

true, on a lot of counts, but you know how it is in wow, there are always notable exceptions to the rule . the undead forsaken are quite the evil bunch but there are good exceptions - remember the high priest in Terokkar forest? the forsaken paladin? what about the maverick gunslinger in the Sunwell trilogy manga? likewise I would expect the same but reveres for the human group.

you're right they don't have to be good, humanity is plageued with moral conflicts, the truly righteous are few and far between, most people sit on the fence, and the evil have a much bigger army even though quite a few of them are in denial about the nature of their morality. I thought that to boost their attraction they'd have to be a group players would really want to play. They could be on the fence like Blood elves are leaning towards good. and you're spot on, regaining their flesh wouldn't change their alignment, at eleast not immediately .but it could start a process, a process that we make the highlight of their tale - they are in the process of redemption, bad but getting better.

everyone likes a good redemption story anyway and it would allow you to maintain the horde feel and not very alliancey temperance, while you weave them out of decadence into a force that actually tempers but not remove the evil of the forsaken group.

you would do that by focusing on a core group of now human agian forsaken, but having evil human forsaken as well so at least the connection to the main group is not lost. Identity, loyalty hold them together in pretty much the same way in gangs where members with a conscience don't always agree with or follow the acts of the members without a conscience, but are loyal to the group.

AN interesting outlet could be that they coudl use them to make the orcs more appealing, make the human forsaken generally a rottne lot, and actually have an orc and maybe a blood elf bring some humanity back to them. fans would love the Orcs and blood elves more for that. Could use a Mag'har orc too, instead of Thrall, considering that these are the noble orcs, and you ddo need to see some positive affirming brown orcs after Garrosh's mess.

2- The aesthetics. By making them "ressurected" undead and part of the forsaken, their aestetics would be the same as the forsaken. If we are going to add a race from the other side, it's big enough to warrant some aesthetic flavor.

It's like if we added high elves, they are culturally different enough to warrant some Dalaran inspired spires; even if they'd be gameplay wise based on an existing race, they would have their own "flavor". That's one of teh things I like about the sub-factions idea: by bringing in these satellite races, you bring their aesthetics (which are already present in the game) cause that's the point of sub-factions to me, more customization and more flavor. By making playable humans merely a part of the forsaken, they are part of their culture. In that case, I'd rather have Alterac humans with human aesthetics that bring something else.

well they wouldn't be like a separate race, neither would high elves if they were ever playable, they would be part, a sub-group or as Mace calls it, a racial faction of an existing group, like Mag'har orcs are of orcs and dark irons are of dwarves - and because racial factions like that are far easier to implement than a full race (you don't have to design new models, just make slight alterations to existing ones, you don't have to design new starting zones, use the one of the main race group or a phsed version of their home zone) you can thus introduce about 5 or even 10 from the get go, or as Mace again has ointed out, laaunch the racial groups when you introduce the new race model.

I agree it is big enough to warrant an aesthetic flavour, and tha'ts a huge part of the appeal of sub-races, they give aesthetic flavour as well as moral alternatives. e.g. you may hate the orcs because of their persanilty, but you might play the purer mag'har orcs because htey're not the invading/warmongering genocidal type. You may hate the far too clean and morally pure night elves, but wuould play the more flawed and ambitious highbourne. So each racial faction of the races adds a dimension and facet to the group giving a depth of richness.

Distinguishing the models would be an important part too. Forsaken and Lordearon already have architecture different to the stormwind humans, so we'd see more of that including perhas a re-furbished upper Lorderaon city for the living forsaken. Model wise, they'd probably hve some sort of extra feature.. Mace and I quite like the sort of cracked face on the Twilight vampires when they get hate, and to have none or varying degrees of that as one of the distinguishing factors.

most racial groups already have a clear distinguishing physcal factor e.g. mag'har orcs are all brown skinned, dragonmaw orcs would be on the grey to black scale, you might add an extra feature like tribal accessories to the mag'har. Other examples include DArk irons, forest trolls, ice trolls, taunka (who have different looking faces) - others you may have to get creative. High elves are only different from blood elves in eye colour.. so you may for example add a runic tatoo option to blood elves that high elves won't get. Highbourne would have to get creative too - I remember Mace suggesting that they instead use blood elf models which would have blood elf faces and animations but in night elf colours and features like skin/inclined ears/silver eyes (inc males)/height etc.. or they could think of another feature to use.

but adding a cosmetic variation to a model you're alreayd working on (i.e. the new models) is much less work than creating a brand new model, which makes the possibility of far more than just 2 racial sub-groups a smart move, and this expansion perfect for the launch of them as they're already working on them.

[TheDangerZone]

true, on a lot of counts, but you know how it is in wow, there are always notable exceptions to the rule . the undead forsaken are quite the evil bunch but there are good exceptions - remember the high priest in Terokkar forest? the forsaken paladin? what about the maverick gunslinger in the Sunwell trilogy manga? likewise I would expect the same but reveres for the human group.

you're right they don't have to be good, humanity is plageued with moral conflicts, the truly righteous are few and far between, most people sit on the fence, and the evil have a much bigger army even though quite a few of them are in denial about the nature of their morality. I thought that to boost their attraction they'd have to be a group players would really want to play. They could be on the fence like Blood elves are leaning towards good. and you're spot on, regaining their flesh wouldn't change their alignment, at eleast not immediately .but it could start a process, a process that we make the highlight of their tale - they are in the process of redemption, bad but getting better.

everyone likes a good redemption story anyway and it would allow you to maintain the horde feel and not very alliancey temperance, while you weave them out of decadence into a force that actually tempers but not remove the evil of the forsaken group.

you would do that by focusing on a core group of now human agian forsaken, but having evil human forsaken as well so at least the connection to the main group is not lost. Identity, loyalty hold them together in pretty much the same way in gangs where members with a conscience don't always agree with or follow the acts of the members without a conscience, but are loyal to the group.

AN interesting outlet could be that they coudl use them to make the orcs more appealing, make the human forsaken generally a rottne lot, and actually have an orc and maybe a blood elf bring some humanity back to them. fans would love the Orcs and blood elves more for that. Could use a Mag'har orc too, instead of Thrall, considering that these are the noble orcs, and you ddo need to see some positive affirming brown orcs after Garrosh's mess.

Yeah, still not really feeling it for the reasons I already see, but the idea of these ressurected forsaken trying to find redemption and the whole "regaining humanity" would be a very attractive arc for a lot of people.

Perhaps this coexistence would make some of the undead forsaken believe that they too can be a part of the world instead of renegading from it, letting go from hatreds of the past? And some human forsaken would still relish on their nihilism, unwilling to bind themselves agian to morlas they left behind oh so long ago.

I like this idea as long as the divide isn't defined or exclusive to their state. If the good forsaken are good because they want to regain their "humanity", not restricted to the biological sense, although the resurrection of some of their race is the "spark" that begins this, It would be a very, very interesting story.

well they wouldn't be like a separate race, neither would high elves if they were ever playable, they would be part, a sub-group or as Mace calls it, a racial faction of an existing group, like Mag'har orcs are of orcs and dark irons are of dwarves - and because racial factions like that are far easier to implement than a full race (you don't have to design new models, just make slight alterations to existing ones, you don't have to design new starting zones, use the one of the main race group or a phsed version of their home zone) you can thus introduce about 5 or even 10 from the get go, or as Mace again has ointed out, laaunch the racial groups when you introduce the new race model.

I agree it is big enough to warrant an aesthetic flavour, and tha'ts a huge part of the appeal of sub-races, they give aesthetic flavour as well as moral alternatives. e.g. you may hate the orcs because of their persanilty, but you might play the purer mag'har orcs because htey're not the invading/warmongering genocidal type. You may hate the far too clean and morally pure night elves, but wuould play the more flawed and ambitious highbourne. So each racial faction of the races adds a dimension and facet to the group giving a depth of richness.

Distinguishing the models would be an important part too. Forsaken and Lordearon already have architecture different to the stormwind humans, so we'd see more of that including perhas a re-furbished upper Lorderaon city for the living forsaken. Model wise, they'd probably hve some sort of extra feature.. Mace and I quite like the sort of cracked face on the Twilight vampires when they get hate, and to have none or varying degrees of that as one of the distinguishing factors.

most racial groups already have a clear distinguishing physcal factor e.g. mag'har orcs are all brown skinned, dragonmaw orcs would be on the grey to black scale, you might add an extra feature like tribal accessories to the mag'har. Other examples include DArk irons, forest trolls, ice trolls, taunka (who have different looking faces) - others you may have to get creative. High elves are only different from blood elves in eye colour.. so you may for example add a runic tatoo option to blood elves that high elves won't get. Highbourne would have to get creative too - I remember Mace suggesting that they instead use blood elf models which would have blood elf faces and animations but in night elf colours and features like skin/inclined ears/silver eyes (inc males)/height etc.. or they could think of another feature to use.

but adding a cosmetic variation to a model you're alreayd working on (i.e. the new models) is much less work than creating a brand new model, which makes the possibility of far more than just 2 racial sub-groups a smart move, and this expansion perfect for the launch of them as they're already working on them.

This is only a minor issue to me, so this sounds good. If there are lots of options in sub-factions, it isn't such a big deal that living forsaken aren't "different enough" of their parent race.

[ravenmoon]

Yeah, still not really feeling it for the reasons I already see, but the idea of these ressurected forsaken trying to find redemption and the whole "regaining humanity" would be a very attractive arc for a lot of people.

bingo, that's my investment in the whole thing. personally I couldn't care less about the forsaken or the humans, however I do like a good story and I love solving problems and I lvoe creating things.

the goal of playable horde humans would be to get more players on the horde. A more naturally/logical/balanced way of making the side more appealing. I want both alliance and horde to be more attractive, having only the horde promoted to me is destroying the story, just like only having humans on the alliance will inevitable make any warcraft movie predictably favour humans- at least in a movie where the Alliance v Horde conflict is the focus.

I think it's hurting the game, and damaging the story to have horde having superior racials for the sake of greater appeal, constantly writing up the faction at the expense of the other side too. Superior plots, quests, more books how far can they take this? I use to like the night elves, I bet their hard nerf and obvious neglect is also a side effect of this drive. I see it as an un-necessary risk, you don't have to lopside your franchise in order to balance out the numbers, the approach they are using has a cost that's too high imo and it won't work either - sure you may get the numbers close enough to be acceptable 55/45 isn't too bad..but you would have to keep up the same emphasis throughout wow to keep them still picking horde. and 7 years is enough. Put humans on the horde - and we may finally get a great story going on, and creative development focusing on writing a good story rather than seeing how they can tweak it to boost the appeal of one faction over the other. it should be equally boosting both

Perhaps this coexistence would make some of the undead forsaken believe that they too can be a part of the world instead of renegading from it, letting go from hatreds of the past? And some human forsaken would still relish on their nihilism, unwilling to bind themselves agian to morlas they left behind oh so long ago.

I like this idea as long as the divide isn't defined or exclusive to their state. If the good forsaken are good because they want to regain their "humanity", not restricted to the biological sense, although the resurrection of some of their race is the "spark" that begins this, It would be a very, very interesting story.

exactly, it's far more interesting than the plain black and white divide, and it offers the huge playerbase options too that engages them more fully in the product. In an interesting way.

but to the "this is crazy people" you won't see the good of any of this if you can't look past the thought of having goofy alliance models avail on the horde, or you can't think of humans as anything but alliance, which is a bit disturbing you know, especially in a fantasy world like this where imagination is supposed to run wild, you become incapable of thinking outside pre-defined boxes...and these are boxes made by other people.

[Deleted]

which is a bit disturbing you know, especially in a fantasy world like this where imagination is supposed to run wild, you become incapable of thinking outside pre-defined boxes...and these are boxes made by other people.

If we had a fantasy world where imagination runs wild, we wouldn't have humans in the first place.

[Falu]

thanks for the frankness by the way, I use to have a harder time with living humans on the horde than I did with the forsaken cure. But then, for so many reasons, they seemed the perfect solution to a lot of issues including the huge balance disparity that is driving a lot of development. It also made a lot more sense when I remembered Forsaken are already human, undead ones and the Alterac nation did side with the horde for warcraft 2, - in no way was having humans playable on the horde lore breaking or faction homoegenizing or in anyway more de-stabilizing to the alliance human v orc horde core, because it had been happening since Warcrat 2. The conflict and long sinse seized being human vs orc only, and had been since WC2, been more a human vs orc core, not ALL HUMANS vs orc.

For the undeath cure, didn't seem a far stretch either, afterall forsaken humans one woud never identify with the horde, and in a world where undeath can occure in the first place, it's not had to imagine or even hope for some sort of cure/reversal, largely because I always knew that something like that would happen eventually, from when they came to be in warcraft 3 I never felt the forsaken would be a long term group, we expected something about it,

Well, while the Forsaken is indeed mostly made out of previously human "specimens", the faction is not restricted to those specifically, and can include practically any mortal race within it (it's mainly due to ingame limitations that the playable forsaken can only be of human origins).
In addition, most members of the Forsaken do not identify with the Horde's sentiments... and neither is their queen, Sylvanas, the sole reason the Forsaken is allied with the Horde is for protection, not by choice, but by necessity:
Living humans (most of them) of any faction, and also High Elves and other races, despise and fear the undead, regardless of who the undead himself identifies himself with (see Lilian Voss for example), even if an undead wished to side himself with the Alliance, he will most likely not be accepted, but instead seen as an abomination and purged from the surface of the earth.
Standing with little choice, hated by most, and faced with grave threats (previously the Scourge + Alliance, and now just the Alliance) the Forsaken found themselves allying with the only faction that would accept them (barely) - the Horde.
The Horde, being a mass of so called "freaks and outcasts" have more sympathy to the Forsaken than any other faction, although still, most Horde members are in a state of uneasy distrust of the Forsaken, and reluctantly accept them as a much needed foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms, rather than an honorable partner.
To sum things up: Most deny the Forsaken right to exist, as a faction of the Undead they're hated and feared, and must do their best to survive, they have no real close allies but themselves - thus why you shouldn't expect Undeads in general, and primarily the Forsaken to have any sentiments but resentment towards most humans.