How would you feel if humans became playable on the horde

[ravenmoon]

Well-written.

All I can add is that I myself prioritize the story. I would not have made those changes that you listed, even if they greatly benefit the gameplay. Perhaps I am wrong in thinking that.

no you're not wrong, you can see past the "but you're giving the alliance to the horde and making the sides to similar" a problem a reader will get if they keep thinking of the horde humans as basically alliance humans and not as a different kettle of fish they are altogether. At least as proposed here.

- - - Updated - - -

Giving Horde humans as well would basically be "yeah some of them turned evil and wants to fight the Alliance but they are still the exact same race".

that's exactly what they did when the forsaken joined the horde, and we were furious at them for doing that, but gameplay trumps lore, and the story was written for the dead humans to fit.

We already have some races that are close to/the same in-game but they actually differ themselves from each other somewhat. Forsaken are dead humans from Lordareon whilst the in-game humans are living Stormwinders.

that's exactly what I'm saying, making some of the forsaken living too doesn't affect faction prejudice or faction emphasis, it unlocks human models to be playable and fix balance issues though, and it provides exciting lore opportunites, cos now you get to tell a great story how someone managed to get nearly half the undead human forsaken population living and breathing again, plus all the ramifications that brings to the foraken group, the region, you get to tell a story even of Lorderon rebuilt but this time being horde.

Night Elves and Blood Elves have undergone changes that took 10 000 of years with their connection to/isolation from arcane and fel magic.

What kind of metamorphosis would these horde humans meet before they turned to the Horde? Because just introducing the exact same race to the other faction without any sort of genetic changes, serious lore creativity or different aspects is both boring and extremely uncreative.

I think you missed the part where we said a cure was found. What causes the cure? there are so many options to choose from, and it actually makes for exciting creativity, I posted a series of possible stories we could run with. And if you're concerned about genetic changes. Sub-races don't need to have genetic changes.. that's why they're introduced as sub-races if the human model is identical to the alliance, it can pass becasue it's not availble on the horde, you can easily add genetic difference by claiming the restoration had some side effects or had aspects that would take years to heal..just like the blood elf green eyes would heal, but htey'd take years, so too could this new feature.

and as for apperances, I mentioned earlier they don't have to use the alliance human models visually either, they can use the new blood elf model and adapt it. Sub-races all use the new models adapted slightly, some with different skin colours, or eye colours etc, it's their ease of adaptation, that makes it un-necessary to create a brand new model is why sub-races are going to be launched with the new models anyway. Soo it's not surprising to take the blood elf model and humanize it to serve as the forsaken living human model instead of using the alliance human stormwind model

the forsaken model will be the adapted blood elf model having the same animations as the new blood elf model, but just look humanized, i.e. human ears, human eyes, human eyebrows, human male facial hair, and swapping some of the more elvish male hairstyles for shorter haired versions for humans.

So in total you're getting no crossover.. all the horde sub-groups will use horde models in some form or the other, and all the allinace ones can use alliance models except perhaps broken which may use the Orc model, but that experiences so much change to make it borken including animating the tentacles, you'd hardly notice. I even suggest that high elf model should use a nightelf model adapted rather than the blood elf model, take the night elf model, slim it a bit, shorten it to blood elf height, give it blood elf skin tones, hair colours, blood elf ears, eyebrows, and high elf eyes ..but it would be a night elf model with night elf animations..but it would look more like a blood elf than it would a high elf yet play differently.

[Catdancing]

If I want to be a human I'll start one on the alliance side.

[Laukkanen]

why not mirror the two factions 100 %? You can't really argue against that because your intentions are for the two factions to be balanced and you have taken zero consideration to the lore so far. So why not just mirror the two factions completetely? That way it will be impossible for newcomers to tell the factions apart and it will just be 100 % random where they end up.

I find your arguing for this to be stupid, every player that plays a specific race atm will probably want their race to feel somewhat unique to their side, by giving both sides all the stuff all over the board you're basically removing any faction-loyalty or association. And you can't really argue that the other races shouldn't be of the same change as the humans once you've opened up the possibility of transferring them to the Horde, then I want orcs and tauren on Alliance. Please give me.

[Kalcheus]

Same as before, with my hands

[ravenmoon]

If waht you're saying is true that they are trying to balance up the Horde and getting more subscribers to the Horde then why are they patch by patch, expansion by expansion turning the Horde more chaotic evil and less noble/honorable/somewhat morally attached to the world? It doesn't make sense really. Because for some reason the Alliance are gathering more players, and if its one thing that differs the two factions it would be the fact that the Alliance are slightly less evil/crooked/mental than the Horde.

They are not, they made Garrosh evil, but notice how much more good the Tauren and Darkspear trolls are, also notice how good the blood elves have become too, Garrosh may be an evil orc, but then you have a counter in Thrall the green messisah (he is often dubbed as) which should make you think that it's not the horde that's evil, just Garrosh a person that's gone astray pretty much like Arthas was or Illidan, in fact most of the villains have been alliance people gone evilly bad in wow's life. Most people never played warcraft 1 or 2 where the horde was portrayed as evil.

Since then 9 year sof developement on the horde has changed their image around considerbly, Garrosh's exploits may have made it look like the horde is becoming more evil but far more has been done to make the horde good without losing that rather more cuutting edge to it. You don't want a sop story on the horde, they've avoided that, so they gone for making the horde a lot more honourable. They do bad things but they care about that... when the forsaken Putress went all crazy, the horde cared about this, htey locked down and policed undercity..when the Orc general goes crazy and bombs all the druids, Garrosh (good at the time) destroys him as well as reprimands the Splintertree post leader for turning to demonic magic to solve her problems.

You go through the quest,s they are specifically designed for you to be proud of playing the horde, they come of as more realistic too because they encounter the moral trials all of us do whiles the alliance is painstakingly bland. The night elves have to be very good, the humans have to be nice guys, the dwarves are all our buddies, there is no conflict there and thus nothing to tirumph over morally too, whereas you fihgt through on the horde.

It is clear the horde tale is far more sophisticated and developed, and this is intentionally so, the experience, the perception, the faction ahs had to become more attractive and appealing so you keep picking horde, and note that good doens't necessarily mean more appealing, in fact comign good out of evil or touch spots is more appealing than just blandly being good, beucas ethis is what the majority of the playing audience identify with.

Alliance have always had more players, they kicked off that way, the changes ito the horde especially bloode lves in the horde has helped cut that deficit substantially, but it's still there. Sub races would allow us to explore more intriguing scenarios and diversify the races more to players, but all of this is best served in equal popualtion sitautions, so the developer can go back to writing good stories for both sides, and not having to focus more on the horde or sabotage teh alliance to get people or keep people interested in the horde.

it is my belief that with human models accessible on the horde, you will have this opportunity. People won't need the horde having better racials, better stories, stronger development to pick them anymore, because the reason for the imbalance is the humans in the first place. The user is human, most videgoames you have a huamn avatar, the whole lure of the video game etneratinment is to have you a front row ticket to being the star and the hero of the story, naturally in game wtih a human option, tha'ts what most people will pick. they' may change htier minds later, but that's what htey'll pick.

The side without humans will immediately have a distinct disadvantage, why do you think all the two faction games put humans on both sides and consequently have no such balance issues WoW experiences. Even the new ones aren't that stupid, Wildstar again has humans on both factions.

What I show here is that having playable humans on the horde doesn't change and will not change the Human v Orc core of the game more than it as already change, and woudl make for still an engaging story while healing the player population deficit.

- - - Updated - - -

If the lore fit, then I'm pretty indifferent. I think "healing" Forsaken is a really weak and terrible excuse to do that, however.

you make it fit, no one wants to read essays on these, well except the really interested, who can spare the time, so I do not take offence if you didn't read the 11 pages on this topic to see how well "healing" forsaken can actually fit and how exciting it can be. If you've read em all and you still disagree, then i'llbe convinced you just don't like the idea, as long as you gave it a fair chance.

there are other options. Could give the forsaken human san'layan (vampires), they're not ghouls like the current forsaken are, they look human and use a humanized version of the new blood elf model, giving access to players.

another option some suggested was using groups like the Syndicate, Defias Brotherhood, Ravenholdt - but all these bodies scream alliance human as they are tied to the alliance and have not been tied to the horde prior to this. If they had been and we had established a non-playing group of living humans on the horde, i'd say go for it. but using them now would look too forced and again in the mind of players would feel like theh orde has become the new alliance, because alliance humans are on it. You don't get that feeling if you're using the forsaken or using vampires.

The problem with human san'layan (vampires) is that they're not really human even though they came from human. We don't think of Worgen as human either, and part of the attraction is not just the model actually having a human.. i.e me to play with on the horde. Which is why I think cured forsaken is better than all the other options, and can actually work quite well, with a little imagination too.

- - - Updated - - -

why not mirror the two factions 100 %? You can't really argue against that because your intentions are for the two factions to be balanced and you have taken zero consideration to the lore so far. So why not just mirror the two factions completetely? That way it will be impossible for newcomers to tell the factions apart and it will just be 100 % random where they end up.

I find your arguing for this to be stupid, every player that plays a specific race atm will probably want their race to feel somewhat unique to their side, by giving both sides all the stuff all over the board you're basically removing any faction-loyalty or association. And you can't really argue that the other races shouldn't be of the same change as the humans once you've opened up the possibility of transferring them to the Horde, then I want orcs and tauren on Alliance. Please give me.

why do you say zero consideration to the lore? the lore has had almost equal motivaton in this, we all knew the undeath condition was going ot have some sort of cure/resolving at some point, is that why there is no lore consideration? or are you thinking more in terms of the faction identity?

and you don't want to mirorr the two factions at all, at least blizzard don't want to. even having players abel to choose faction with any race shoudln't necessirly mirror the factions. HIgh elves are on the alliance and you don't think the factions are mirrored now. Humans are on the horde as forsaken now and you don't think the factions are mirrored. When the Alterac humans sided with the horde in WC2, you didn't think the factions were mirrored, so why woudl you think they'd be mirrored with a small group of humans on the horde this time either? especially writing a good story about it?

it won't, it never had to, and it shouldn't. Not if you write it properly. And I understand the feeling if uniqueness, may i point out that having living humans on the horde doesn't have to change this? they're not alliance humans they're forsaken and forsaken are on the horde. Is it the models you feel would be a problem? having the forskaen human use blood elf models for this sub-group continues the distinction, and may I remind you that panderan are accessible to both sides, the same model, yet you don't feel that way.

I dn't expect any race but humans, elves and panderan to be shared amongst the factions because blizzard edoes love the distinction and it's only those 3 races that have a lore precedence for being on either side. Humans have the forsaken and alterac humans on the horde, and stormwind and all other living humans on the alliance. The elves have the high elves on the alliance and the blood elves on the horde. these two races might be shared by both factions but they have 2 completley separate identities on either side.

the forsaken have a prominent and distinct identity from the alliance humans as their story shows, the high elves and blood elves though the same race have a distinct identity too linked to their factions and their differing philosophies, this is not new... this is there. Panderan was the new development, because Panderans on both sides have the same philosophy and identity - and yet exist on oth factions, they pick a side whose cause they believe in more, however they are not opposed fundamentally to the core like The Forsaken and Stormwind are or that High Elves and Blood elves are.,


nothing here is new,

[Deleted]

Might I suggest an alternative to humans?

Half-orcs (human-orc). They are already well established in lore and are present in both factions.

[Laukkanen]

They are not, they made Garrosh evil, but notice how much more good the Tauren and Darkspear trolls are, also notice how good the blood elves have become too, Garrosh may be an evil orc, but then you have a counter in Thrall the green messisah (he is often dubbed as) which should make you think that it's not the horde that's evil, just Garrosh a person that's gone astray pretty much like Arthas was or Illidan, in fact most of the villains have been alliance people gone evilly bad in wow's life. Most people never played warcraft 1 or 2 where the horde was portrayed as evil.

Since then 9 year sof developement on the horde has changed their image around considerbly, Garrosh's exploits may have made it look like the horde is becoming more evil but far more has been done to make the horde good without losing that rather more cuutting edge to it. You don't want a sop story on the horde, they've avoided that, so they gone for making the horde a lot more honourable. They do bad things but they care about that... when the forsaken Putress went all crazy, the horde cared about this, htey locked down and policed undercity..when the Orc general goes crazy and bombs all the druids, Garrosh (good at the time) destroys him as well as reprimands the Splintertree post leader for turning to demonic magic to solve her problems.

You go through the quest,s they are specifically designed for you to be proud of playing the horde, they come of as more realistic too because they encounter the moral trials all of us do whiles the alliance is painstakingly bland. The night elves have to be very good, the humans have to be nice guys, the dwarves are all our buddies, there is no conflict there and thus nothing to tirumph over morally too, whereas you fihgt through on the horde.

It is clear the horde tale is far more sophisticated and developed, and this is intentionally so, the experience, the perception, the faction ahs had to become more attractive and appealing so you keep picking horde, and note that good doens't necessarily mean more appealing, in fact comign good out of evil or touch spots is more appealing than just blandly being good, beucas ethis is what the majority of the playing audience identify with.

Alliance have always had more players, they kicked off that way, the changes ito the horde especially bloode lves in the horde has helped cut that deficit substantially, but it's still there. Sub races would allow us to explore more intriguing scenarios and diversify the races more to players, but all of this is best served in equal popualtion sitautions, so the developer can go back to writing good stories for both sides, and not having to focus more on the horde or sabotage teh alliance to get people or keep people interested in the horde.

it is my belief that with human models accessible on the horde, you will have this opportunity. People won't need the horde having better racials, better stories, stronger development to pick them anymore, because the reason for the imbalance is the humans in the first place. The user is human, most videgoames you have a huamn avatar, the whole lure of the video game etneratinment is to have you a front row ticket to being the star and the hero of the story, naturally in game wtih a human option, tha'ts what most people will pick. they' may change htier minds later, but that's what htey'll pick.

The side without humans will immediately have a distinct disadvantage, why do you think all the two faction games put humans on both sides and consequently have no such balance issues WoW experiences. Even the new ones aren't that stupid, Wildstar again has humans on both factions.

What I show here is that having playable humans on the horde doesn't change and will not change the Human v Orc core of the game more than it as already change, and woudl make for still an engaging story while healing the player population deficit.

- - - Updated - - -



you make it fit, no one wants to read essays on these, well except the really interested, who can spare the time, so I do not take offence if you didn't read the 11 pages on this topic to see how well "healing" forsaken can actually fit and how exciting it can be. If you've read em all and you still disagree, then i'llbe convinced you just don't like the idea, as long as you gave it a fair chance.

there are other options. Could give the forsaken human san'layan (vampires), they're not ghouls like the current forsaken are, they look human and use a humanized version of the new blood elf model, giving access to players.

another option some suggested was using groups like the Syndicate, Defias Brotherhood, Ravenholdt - but all these bodies scream alliance human as they are tied to the alliance and have not been tied to the horde prior to this. If they had been and we had established a non-playing group of living humans on the horde, i'd say go for it. but using them now would look too forced and again in the mind of players would feel like theh orde has become the new alliance, because alliance humans are on it. You don't get that feeling if you're using the forsaken or using vampires.

The problem with human san'layan (vampires) is that they're not really human even though they came from human. We don't think of Worgen as human either, and part of the attraction is not just the model actually having a human.. i.e me to play with on the horde. Which is why I think cured forsaken is better than all the other options, and can actually work quite well, with a little imagination too.

- - - Updated - - -


why do you say zero consideration to the lore? the lore has had almost equal motivaton in this, we all knew the undeath condition was going ot have some sort of cure/resolving at some point, is that why there is no lore consideration? or are you thinking more in terms of the faction identity?

and you don't want to mirorr the two factions at all, at least blizzard don't want to. even having players abel to choose faction with any race shoudln't necessirly mirror the factions. HIgh elves are on the alliance and you don't think the factions are mirrored now. Humans are on the horde as forsaken now and you don't think the factions are mirrored. When the Alterac humans sided with the horde in WC2, you didn't think the factions were mirrored, so why woudl you think they'd be mirrored with a small group of humans on the horde this time either? especially writing a good story about it?

it won't, it never had to, and it shouldn't. Not if you write it properly. And I understand the feeling if uniqueness, may i point out that having living humans on the horde doesn't have to change this? they're not alliance humans they're forsaken and forsaken are on the horde. Is it the models you feel would be a problem? having the forskaen human use blood elf models for this sub-group continues the distinction, and may I remind you that panderan are accessible to both sides, the same model, yet you don't feel that way.

I dn't expect any race but humans, elves and panderan to be shared amongst the factions because blizzard edoes love the distinction and it's only those 3 races that have a lore precedence for being on either side. Humans have the forsaken and alterac humans on the horde, and stormwind and all other living humans on the alliance. The elves have the high elves on the alliance and the blood elves on the horde. these two races might be shared by both factions but they have 2 completley separate identities on either side.

the forsaken have a prominent and distinct identity from the alliance humans as their story shows, the high elves and blood elves though the same race have a distinct identity too linked to their factions and their differing philosophies, this is not new... this is there. Panderan was the new development, because Panderans on both sides have the same philosophy and identity - and yet exist on oth factions, they pick a side whose cause they believe in more, however they are not opposed fundamentally to the core like The Forsaken and Stormwind are or that High Elves and Blood elves are.,


nothing here is new,

Why are you talking about the forsaken already being the horde humans if your initial point was to make "living humans" horde. I don't understand. Are you saying the forsaken are already human? Then why should Horde have another human race?

You're talking like the imbalance is game breaking and that 90 % of all alliance play as human. Neither of that is true. The imbalance /favour for the Alliance is ever so slight and it is not increasing. There are other ways than giving humans to the horde as a method to fix this, that is far more game-breaking and ruining of the game than the potential imbalance it might fix.

[ravenmoon]

Might I suggest an alternative to humans?

Half-orcs (human-orc). They are already well established in lore and are present in both factions.

hadn't considered those as a sub-race.. half elf and half orc could be a human subrace... would they work on the horde? hmm.. they'd have to be an orc sub race..

what would they look like? would they look human enough to be attractive? I'd probably have them look human, no greenish hue and possibly longer lower incisors than human.

[Deleted]

hadn't considered those as a sub-race.. half elf and half orc could be a human subrace... would they work on the horde? hmm.. they'd have to be an orc sub race..

what would they look like? would they look human enough to be attractive? I'd probably have them look human, no greenish hue and possibly longer lower incisors than human.

http://wowpedia.org/Half-orc Bit more info.

[dpcn111]

It would make no difference to me. My top 2 characters are human and I can't really see playing them on the Horde side but I would not begrudge others for wanting to. I've always liked the idea of a traitor or spy scenario worked into the game I'm just not sure of how it would be implemented.

[Laukkanen]

hadn't considered those as a sub-race.. half elf and half orc could be a human subrace... would they work on the horde? hmm.. they'd have to be an orc sub race..

what would they look like? would they look human enough to be attractive? I'd probably have them look human, no greenish hue and possibly longer lower incisors than human.

Can you please explain your extrem fetish with human on the Horde-side?

The warcraft we have is not the classic LoTR world where the human, elves and dwarves are the nice ones and the orcs and trolls are the bad ones by default. That's one of the reason giving humans to the horde shouldn't be necessary. The factions are not that different from each other until Blizzard made the Horde go old-horde and like to kill stuff simply because they are too dumb to do anything else.

[ravenmoon]

Why are you talking about the forsaken already being the horde humans if your initial point was to make "living humans" horde. I don't understand. Are you saying the forsaken are already human? Then why should Horde have another human race?

yes, I am saying Forsaken are human, I'm counting on that fact, they are the reason that makes the forsaken the perfect vehicle for having living human models. They are humans, just undead humans, which is why humans coming from them are completely free of any alliance ties or feels of identificaiton with the alliance, or feelings of homogenization. They are established in the horde, so the living versions come from them.

Unliving is a different classification.. i'm not sure if you're aware that unliving is different from undead although they are similar. Don't look at me, Blizzard is the one that writes the rules on this.

You're talking like the imbalance is game breaking and that 90 % of all alliance play as human. Neither of that is true. The imbalance /favour for the Alliance is ever so slight and it is not increasing. There are other ways than giving humans to the horde as a method to fix this, that is far more game-breaking and ruining of the game than the potential imbalance it might fix.

The effects are cumulative. Humans have a majority on the alliance side, and whiles not enough to account for the faction difference you not taking on the knock on factors of whic h i can give 2 quick examples of.

1. Players who roll human then perceive the side with humans as the right choice to be, you may wanna try a differnet model but you wnat to be on the side of humanity anyway.

2. Knock on effect two. Your first character is human, you play through you form friends and guilds on the alliance, your subsequent characters and your friends you pull in will play with on the faction. In fact unless you want to go competitive you will stay alliance. Most people that swap over to horde have done so to play competiviely in pvp or pvE.

So human having the immediate advantage does have a knock down effect. and yes, humans do account for nearly that 10% and I wouldn't be surpirsed if the percentage of brand new subsribers that picked human was closer to 95% than 90%.

We want to attract brand new players, and we want to excite existing players. Lore changes and developments do very little for new players, the lore stories that you would spin from this development will exicte the existing players to the horde. Fro new players, just having the model available on the horde is enough of an attraction anyway, they just see human, and know so little or next to nothing about the story, htey'd go with what they identify with for their first character and thus able to pick either side.

I think the hore will beneift form using adapted blood elf models for thier living humans as opposed to the new alliance human model. The new alliance models won't be ugly, but they won't be as pretty as the Elf models. The alliance already has night elves to look good in the new models, having blood elves and human adapted blood elf models, would give the horde the edge on humans perhaps to make up for the more monstrous looking races.

[Obelisk Kai]

You know ravenmoon, I've deliberately stayed out of this thread just to see where it would go from your initial verbal diarrhea in the High Elf thread.

Here you are, still spinning it, still trying to justify it, still trying to develop it. I almost admire your dedication, you and Mace have opened four or five threads discussing it in one way or another, except such dedication is in the service of a deadbeat game-killing lore-breaking faction-homogenizing lump of intellectual garbage.

In truth this 'notion' has gotten increasingly unwieldy and impractical the longer you have spent at it. Even by Warcraft standards you have entered the realm of fantasy.

And all rooted in the same silly notion that the Horde gets nice things because Blizzard has to keep 'bigging' them up to compensate for Alliance numbers. Even if it were the case, and it's a shallow reading of what is going on by the way, your solution is the equivalent of using a pneumatic drill to crack a nut.

I take comfort in seeing what you don't, that this idea is so out there, so fantastical (and I don't mean that in a good way) that can you honestly stand there and say it will be taken seriously let alone implemented?

Here's the nub. If Blizzard ever decided on a nuclear solution of this magnitude, they would remove the dividing wall that prevents players from opposing factions guilding, communicating and raiding together.

It would solve all the imagined issues you've presented but at a fraction of the cost and with the added silver lining of not massively fucking up the story as you propose.

[Laukkanen]

I think the hore will beneift form using adapted blood elf models for thier living humans as opposed to the new alliance human model. The new alliance models won't be ugly, but they won't be as pretty as the Elf models. The alliance already has night elves to look good in the new models, having blood elves and human adapted blood elf models, would give the horde the edge on humans perhaps to make up for the more monstrous looking races.

what? blood elf models as the human models for horde humans?
what the flying fuck are you on about?

Also, WHY is it a problem that the Alliance is slightly more popular? Their cities are bigger, they have more zones, lore going back further and have bigger responsibilities for fucks up on Azeroth. What effect does it have on gameplay? I haven't seen anything when in-game that makes me see the Alliance as crushing through everything because we are slightly more. I always lose my BGS as it's always been and the horde guilds are more succesful in the raids. Yet the Horde should have even more stuff given to them? They have the better racials, more updated and recently written lore, more added content, more different race leaders active, are more succesful in raids and in PVP, the only disadvantage they have is that they are slightly less populated. Why is that a problem? Answer the question WHY its a problem instead of stating its not 100 % balanced.

And you still haven't shown any kind of numbers/statistics that show that the gap between the two factions are 50 % of what the Alliance Human players account for. 50 % because you'd want 50% of them to go horde. Present some fucking facts that this will give anything other than half the playerbase quitting the game. Because I honestly think this could be one of the most catastrophical additions to the game possible with the most severe effects on the player base.

[Obelisk Kai]

what? blood elf models as the human models for horde humans?
what the flying fuck are you on about?

Also, WHY is it a problem that the Alliance is slightly more popular? Their cities are bigger, they have more zones, lore going back further and have bigger responsibilities for fucks up on Azeroth. What effect does it have on gameplay? I haven't seen anything when in-game that makes me see the Alliance as crushing through everything because we are slightly more. I always lose my BGS as it's always been and the horde guilds are more succesful in the raids. Yet the Horde should have even more stuff given to them? They have the better racials, more updated and recently written lore, more added content, more different race leaders active, are more succesful in raids and in PVP, the only disadvantage they have is that they are slightly less populated. Why is that a problem? Answer the question WHY its a problem instead of stating its not 100 % balanced.

This is the tragedy. See, he's actually pro-Alliance. As i read his theory, he thinks the Horde gets nice stuff because the Alliance is more popular. If Humans are the most popular Alliance race, then giving them to the Horde means the numbers will equalise a bit more. And the more equal the numbers, the less pressure blizzard would be under to give the Horde nice things and they might start doing nice things for the Alliance.

A completely internally logical theory undermined by the its own crackpot nature.

[Jessicka]

you make it fit, no one wants to read essays on these, well except the really interested, who can spare the time, so I do not take offence if you didn't read the 11 pages on this topic to see how well "healing" forsaken can actually fit and how exciting it can be. If you've read em all and you still disagree, then i'llbe convinced you just don't like the idea, as long as you gave it a fair chance.

there are other options. Could give the forsaken human san'layan (vampires), they're not ghouls like the current forsaken are, they look human and use a humanized version of the new blood elf model, giving access to players.

another option some suggested was using groups like the Syndicate, Defias Brotherhood, Ravenholdt - but all these bodies scream alliance human as they are tied to the alliance and have not been tied to the horde prior to this. If they had been and we had established a non-playing group of living humans on the horde, i'd say go for it. but using them now would look too forced and again in the mind of players would feel like theh orde has become the new alliance, because alliance humans are on it. You don't get that feeling if you're using the forsaken or using vampires.

The problem with human san'layan (vampires) is that they're not really human even though they came from human. We don't think of Worgen as human either, and part of the attraction is not just the model actually having a human.. i.e me to play with on the horde. Which is why I think cured forsaken is better than all the other options, and can actually work quite well, with a little imagination too.

The San'layn are Blood Elves, not humans. As far as I'm concerned, the undead humans that deal with that kind of Blood Magic are the Blood Death Knights (one reason I actually wasn't happy about my Frost tank having to convert to Blood).

I think there's scope for one of the many more mercenary human factions to pick a side; same could apply to Tauren who identify with the Night Elves through their shared naturalism (I recall it was Night Elves that gave or returned Druidism to the Tauren, whichever). I think that approach is much cleaner than finding a cure for undeath - it's pretty obvious such a "cure" would be weaponised by everyone to fight those undead who had embraced their immortality, which is all of them since they already had been given that choice at the point of being risen.

[ravenmoon]

The San'layn are Blood Elves, not humans. As far as I'm concerned, the undead humans that deal with that kind of Blood Magic are the Blood Death Knights (one reason I actually wasn't happy about my Frost tank having to convert to Blood).

I think there's scope for one of the many more mercenary human factions to pick a side; same could apply to Tauren who identify with the Night Elves through their shared naturalism (I recall it was Night Elves that gave or returned Druidism to the Tauren, whichever). I think that approach is much cleaner than finding a cure for undeath - it's pretty obvious such a "cure" would be weaponised by everyone to fight those undead who had embraced their immortality, which is all of them since they already had been given that choice at the point of being risen.

you're right the blood elves are not human nor are the san'layan human, i was talking about adapting the san'layan to humanity, i.e. a san'layan finds away to transfer this vampiric condition to humans, forming the human san'layan (obviously they'll have a slightly different name), and we use these. There is obivously a basis for this in lore, the vampires are san'layan and they come from Arthas, same as the death knights, they were created at that time, blizzard are always introdcuing new stuff, don't be surpriesed if they adapt the san'layan to this to achieve a human forsakenk sub-race with vampiric tendencies.


i sstill don't get why you think finding a "cure" for undeath is such a detestable idea. you mentioned such a "cure" would be weaponised, A scenario I propose in one of the earlier methods. The "cure" could ctually not be a treatment but actually some mysterious event taht affected forsaken gathered in a location, it could be something discovered by cenarius and the druids or the aspects or something that uses the waters of the well - but it only seems to work on some forsaken. WE're not suggesting ALL the forsaken undead become human, just some of them, they would still want you to be able to play as undead.

In one of the more popular scenarios if you read back, we propose the method is leaked both to the forsaken and the alliance humans by a mystery figure who's intentions are unknown. The forsaken successfully utilize it first, and use it to restore 6 of their topundercover rogue spies tasked with infiltrating alliance intelligence and SI:7, the humans take a differnet approach, they find a way to weaponize en mass by some sort of bomb, they have no idea they have been infiltrated by the forsaken humans, but those guys are not able to stop the bomb before it is unleashed. The alliance hoped to turn all the forsaken to human thinking that owul din wone fell swoop automatically make them all alliance crippling the horde.

boy oh boy were they mistaken, first surprise was that the bomb didn't work on all the gathered forsaken exposed to the treatment. Furthermore it didn't change the minds of any of the forsaken that were turned human, they had no inclination of becoming allinace with their restored humanity, maybe with the exception of those who were very newly forsaken - they and their fellow undead companions wipe out the alliance troop that was sent to do this. Two things occur, back in stormwind the undercover forsaken manage to destory the alliances capabilities of making and using this treatment, unfortunately for them, it is noticed that someone has infiltrated the alliance intelligence, but for now they think it might be another Onyxia type instead of forsaken, they have no idea the forsaken also had the treatment and had used.

Sadly for the forsaken too, teh ensuing battle with the alliance troop, dmaaged and destroyed the section where their operating proceduce was being devleoped also crippling their ability to use this treatment, and the mysterious figure ensures that it is completley destroyed before it is traced back to him now his desired intention has been achieved.

i mean that's just one of many potentiallly exciting lore developments this can spawn, I've written many more posts going into a lot of detail about potential scenarios if you scroll back. You may find them interesting.

[Laukkanen]

Why would cured yet still alive forsaken side with the Horde? If they went back to being "normal" humans then surely they'd see themselves as human once more and kind of take an interest in rekindling their connections with their kin? There are still families with half of their members in Stormwind and alive and some as forsaken in Lordareon. Wouldn't their ties with their kin be stronger than that of the Horde?

O_O

[ravenmoon]

This is the tragedy. See, he's actually pro-Alliance. As i read his theory, he thinks the Horde gets nice stuff because the Alliance is more popular. If Humans are the most popular Alliance race, then giving them to the Horde means the numbers will equalise a bit more. And the more equal the numbers, the less pressure blizzard would be under to give the Horde nice things and they might start doing nice things for the Alliance.

A completely internally logical theory undermined by the its own crackpot nature.

I see, so I suggest more attractive things for the horde, because I'm pro alliance, so the horde will get less attractive things and I'm crackpot?

or coudl it be that I'm neither alliance nor horde biased, but just want some proper balance to finally exist between the two factions. But ofc someone who is only pro-horde would not like.

Rumaya, I'm neither horde nor alliance biased, but I understand a lot of people are, just look at the "why don't you play alliance?" topic, it's part of the charm of warcraft, I expect people to be biased. However, I am not, although you're free to think or believe otherwise, I have wanted a better product overall

- - - Updated - - -

Why would cured yet still alive forsaken side with the Horde? If they went back to being "normal" humans then surely they'd see themselves as human once more and kind of take an interest in rekindling their connections with their kin? There are still families with half of their members in Stormwind and alive and some as forsaken in Lordareon. Wouldn't their ties with their kin be stronger than that of the Horde?

O_O

why would they side with the alliance? I can see the alliance thinking that, but the forsaken story makes it clear that this is exactly what the forsaken tried to do as undead when they got their minds/souls freed by Sylvannas. Instead the alliance humans conitnued to hunt them down and destroy them refusing to believe they were anything more than scourge, despite the pleas, despite demonstrating they were no longer. The orcish horde saw a bit past that and the wise Thrall recognized they were actually people who had a terrible injustice carried out to them. They entered an alliance of convenience with the horde.. what makes you think that having flesh would rekindle any love for the people who tried to exterminate you and deny your exisitence?

that's why the forsaken formed in the first place, this was the forsaken introduced. You see, it makes no difference whether some of them are living again and some are not, they would still despise the alliance and likely want to exact revenge for them trying to wipe them out. This is what makes them the perfect candidate for living humans, they are the one humans who would never identify or side with the alliance. This would be made clear again when their story is told, as most people have not played warcraft 3 and may not know this about the forsaken.


hell most people don't even realize the forsaken are human. One of the reasons they have a hard time with this. Reminding them in the story should fix that.

[Laukkanen]

I see, so I suggest more attractive things for the horde, because I'm pro alliance, so the horde will get less attractive things and I'm crackpot?

or coudl it be that I'm neither alliance nor horde biased, but just want some proper balance to finally exist between the two factions. But ofc someone who is only pro-horde would not like.

Rumaya, I'm neither horde nor alliance biased, but I understand a lot of people are, just look at the "why don't you play alliance?" topic, it's part of the charm of warcraft, I expect people to be biased. However, I am not, although you're free to think or believe otherwise, I have wanted a better product overall

If you expect and know that people are aligned with one faction over the other then why are you trying to ruin that hard on by giving the one race to the other faction that does not belong there no matter how much lore twisting you do. It's like placing the Orcs in the Alliance, no matter how much balance it can give it doesn't matter. The franchise is fucking dead when one of Orcs v Humans are placed in the other faction. What is it that you don't get? And no, forsaken are not HUMAN HUMAN, they are forsaken dead human, no longer connected to their past as humans so don't bring them up again.

I don't care how much the Horde gets from the devs really, I prefer it to continue to one of the core races to be given to the other faction just because of so called balance that no one else is ever complaining about.

- - - Updated - - -

I see, so I suggest more attractive things for the horde, because I'm pro alliance, so the horde will get less attractive things and I'm crackpot?

or coudl it be that I'm neither alliance nor horde biased, but just want some proper balance to finally exist between the two factions. But ofc someone who is only pro-horde would not like.

Rumaya, I'm neither horde nor alliance biased, but I understand a lot of people are, just look at the "why don't you play alliance?" topic, it's part of the charm of warcraft, I expect people to be biased. However, I am not, although you're free to think or believe otherwise, I have wanted a better product overall

- - - Updated - - -

why would they side with the alliance? I can see the alliance thinking that, but the forsaken story makes it clear that this is exactly what the forsaken tried to do as undead when they got their minds/souls freed by Sylvannas. Instead the alliance humans conitnued to hunt them down and destroy them as scourge. The orcish horde saw a bit past that and the wise Thrall recognized they were actually people who had a terrible injustice carried out to them. They entered an alliance of convenience with the horde.. what makes you think that having flesh would rekindle any love for the people who tried to exterminate you and deny your exisitence?

that's why the forsaken formed in the firs tplace, makes no difference whether some of them are living again and some are not, they would still despise the alliance and likely want to exact revenge for them trying to wipe them out.

Sylvanas and his gang of forsaken had Garithos and the surviving humans slaughtered after they helped her empty Lordareon. I don't see how anything after that point is evil/wrongdoing by the Alliance, why wouldn't they assume they were the Scourge/something else. They were lead by the same leaders/Sylvanas and Varimathras) and continued to slaughter the Alliance. Did the forsaken ever try to show the Alliance they were not like the Scourge? Nah, the first thing they did was slaughtering Garithos + the rest of the Alliance in these regions.