How would you feel if humans became playable on the horde

[Jessicka]

you're right the blood elves are not human nor are the san'layan human, i was talking about adapting the san'layan to humanity, i.e. a san'layan finds away to transfer this vampiric condition to humans, forming the human san'layan (obviously they'll have a slightly different name), and we use these. There is obivously a basis for this in lore, the vampires are san'layan and they come from Arthas, same as the death knights, they were created at that time, blizzard are always introdcuing new stuff, don't be surpriesed if they adapt the san'layan to this to achieve a human forsakenk sub-race with vampiric tendencies.


i sstill don't get why you think finding a "cure" for undeath is such a detestable idea. you mentioned such a "cure" would be weaponised, A scenario I propose in one of the earlier methods. The "cure" could ctually not be a treatment but actually some mysterious event taht affected forsaken gathered in a location, it could be something discovered by cenarius and the druids or the aspects or something that uses the waters of the well - but it only seems to work on some forsaken. WE're not suggesting ALL the forsaken undead become human, just some of them, they would still want you to be able to play as undead.

In one of the more popular scenarios if you read back, we propose the method is leaked both to the forsaken and the alliance humans by a mystery figure who's intentions are unknown. The forsaken successfully utilize it first, and use it to restore 6 of their topundercover rogue spies tasked with infiltrating alliance intelligence and SI:7, the humans take a differnet approach, they find a way to weaponize en mass by some sort of bomb, they have no idea they have been infiltrated by the forsaken humans, but those guys are not able to stop the bomb before it is unleashed. The alliance hoped to turn all the forsaken to human thinking that owul din wone fell swoop automatically make them all alliance crippling the horde.

boy oh boy were they mistaken, first surprise was that the bomb didn't work on all the gathered forsaken exposed to the treatment. Furthermore it didn't change the minds of any of the forsaken that were turned human, they had no inclination of becoming allinace with their restored humanity, maybe with the exception of those who were very newly forsaken - they and their fellow undead companions wipe out the alliance troop that was sent to do this. Two things occur, back in stormwind the undercover forsaken manage to destory the alliances capabilities of making and using this treatment, unfortunately for them, it is noticed that someone has infiltrated the alliance intelligence, but for now they think it might be another Onyxia type instead of forsaken, they have no idea the forsaken also had the treatment and had used.

Sadly for the forsaken too, teh ensuing battle with the alliance troop, dmaaged and destroyed the section where their operating proceduce was being devleoped also crippling their ability to use this treatment, and the mysterious figure ensures that it is completley destroyed before it is traced back to him now his desired intention has been achieved.

i mean that's just one of many potentiallly exciting lore developments this can spawn, I've written many more posts going into a lot of detail about potential scenarios if you scroll back. You may find them interesting.

At the point of rising into Undeath, they're given the choice to embrace immortality or the peace of the grave; they choose immortality. After making that choice, they seem broadly content with their condition and so don't seek to be cured. Curing them, making them mortal again goes against the choice they made to become a part of the Forsaken in the first place.

Even if they did, I doubt that Sylvannas would allow it, since being mortal undoes their greatest strength that actually allows them to have the leverage of a significant faction; which is exactly why a cure would probably end up being weaponised - if you can cure them, you can not only kill them, but also prevent them from using some of their most potent plague based weaponry, because they'll be vulnerable to it too.

Why would cured yet still alive forsaken side with the Horde? If they went back to being "normal" humans then surely they'd see themselves as human once more and kind of take an interest in rekindling their connections with their kin? There are still families with half of their members in Stormwind and alive and some as forsaken in Lordareon. Wouldn't their ties with their kin be stronger than that of the Horde?

O_O

They'd side with the Horde because it had offered them sanctuary so long, and that their Forsaken kin would still be a part of it. I think the clue as to why they'd not join the Alliance is in the name: Forsaken. Just to be absolutely clear again, the current Alliance humans are not the same humans of Lodaeron - those bulk of those humans are now the Forsaken; very few joined the new Alliance.

[Laukkanen]

They'd side with the Horde because it had offered them sanctuary so long, and that their Forsaken kin would still be a part of it. I think the clue as to why they'd not join the Alliance is in the name: Forsaken. Just to be absolutely clear again, the current Alliance humans are not the same humans of Lodaeron - those bulk of those humans are now the Forsaken; very few joined the new Alliance.

I wonder how the Horde would look on the now cured forsaken Human faction in their own "team."

They called themselves Forsaken because they were dead and forsaken. They were dead and did nothing short of proving they had lost all their morals and connections with their old self. I don't see how it should be an Alliance responsibility to take when the Forsaken slaugtered the remaining alive human population in Lordareon and took their place. "so abandonded by the Alliance".

[Escariot]

It will never happen and I'm glad it wont. Warcraft is at first about Orcs vs. Humans! Dont forget that!

While on topic, it would be much more logical that some Blood Elves (not all but some as individuals, as OP said for humans) join the Alliance. I still cannot fathom how could an elf ally itself with an undead, a talking bull or a troll. Its absolutely crazy and has been bugging me since TBC.

[Mace]

It will never happen and I'm glad it wont. Warcraft is at first about Orcs vs. Humans! Dont forget that!

While on topic, it would be much more logical that some Blood Elves (not all but some as individuals, as OP said for humans) join the Alliance. I still cannot fathom how could an elf ally itself with an undead, a talking bull or a troll. Its absolutely crazy and has been bugging me since TBC.

it's more than that. what you're proposing is basically high elves. sure some blood elves can get up and try to join the alliance, but why would we do that when they're high elves? won't they just convert to high elves?

[ravenmoon]

At the point of rising into Undeath, they're given the choice to embrace immortality or the peace of the grave; they choose immortality. After making that choice, they seem broadly content with their condition and so don't seek to be cured. Curing them, making them mortal again goes against the choice they made to become a part of the Forsaken in the first place.

Even if they did, I doubt that Sylvannas would allow it, since being mortal undoes their greatest strength that actually allows them to have the leverage of a significant faction; which is exactly why a cure would probably end up being weaponised - if you can cure them, you can not only kill them, but also prevent them from using some of their most potent plague based weaponry, because they'll be vulnerable to it too.

that's the beauty of a story, you can write whatever you want. No one chose to be made undead (well unless you're Lich or Necromancer), similarly no one chose to be made living again, as I said, you could write it as a one off event of mysterious or explained origin - meteor? Titan? Elune? Mystery force? Old God? who knows. You ahve to admit it does provide interesting story potentials.

Was Sylvannas affected? if she was, what does this mean for her and the forsaken, if she was not, how would she view those of her group that were made flesh? sure they are loyal now, how can she use them? In the scenario we had the a cure leaked to the forsaken by a manipulating mysterious 3rd party, Sylvannas is the one that commissions the treatement on the 6 operatives with the intention of infiltrating Stormwind, loyalty is not in question here they don't want an alliance around, a group that viewed them as nothing worth more than refuse purposed for complete destruction.

And mortality doesn't have to be rob them of their greatest strength, remember they were all mortal ones, and they consider themselves stronger because they survived the horror of undeath, their strength is in their minds and their will, undead bodies have disadvantages human bodies don't, they also have advantages too. you make best use of the situation. And undead can certainly be killed, being undead never made them invulnerable and initially they were supposed to have a much shorter lifespan than they currently have. Oh and they were developing plagues to wipe out both the living and the dead remember, not just the living.. you to also remember, that the Undercity has a large living population, it's a huge horde centre, an Orc Garrison of Kor'kron are stationed there, it gets many visits from Blood Elves, Orcs, trolls etc, it's the major horde fort in the eastern kingdoms.

They are quite use to having the living around them, it doesn't stop them from having their goals, but it would make an interesting and subtle story to tell how some of them regaining their flesh does start changing some of their ambitions and direction. At the least it provides a more humane branch of the forsaken for those who wouldn't play them because they were largely pure evil. Like all sub-races, they provide a playable group of your favourite race group that has different attitudes/viewpoints.

They'd side with the Horde because it had offered them sanctuary so long, and that their Forsaken kin would still be a part of it. I think the clue as to why they'd not join the Alliance is in the name: Forsaken. Just to be absolutely clear again, the current Alliance humans are not the same humans of Lodaeron - those bulk of those humans are now the Forsaken; very few joined the new Alliance.

Exactly Having your flesh alive again doesn't erase the last 10 yaears of struggle or the injustice and downright criminal activity of the alliance. Claiming Lorderaon as their own whiles it's inhabitants still walk the land in their right mind, exterminating them, forsaken humans are the one group of living humans you can be pretty sure off want nothing to do with the alliance and certainly won't blur the lines between the horde and the alliance.

[Etoo]

I play a human in real life, no reason to do it in a fantasy game too.

[Skronk]

given that the kingdom of alterac was technically part of/allied with the horde once upon a time, the lore already exists to support this possibility, however i'm pretty sure that boats long since sailed.

i wouldnt be all that happy about it personally, as much as it would never effect me in the slightest as i agree with the sentiment that playing a generic boring human in a fantasy MMO is just booooooooooooooooooooooring (for me anyway), it would just feel really horribly shoehorned into the current political climate inside the game.

[ravenmoon]

It will never happen and I'm glad it wont. Warcraft is at first about Orcs vs. Humans! Dont forget that!

and having playable humans on the horde, whether they use human adapted blood elf models or the alliance human models won't change warcraft being Orcs vs Humans.

The forsaken are humans, undead humans, and warcraft is still mainly about Orcs Vs Humans
2. Alterac humans, living humans did side with the horde in Warcraft 2, and it didn't change warcraft from being about Orcs Vs Humans - i see no reason why human forsaken becoming living again and fighting with their undead forsaken brothers would change the Orc v Human theme, anymore than I fail to see how human san'layan (vampires) that use human models whether those models be the ones we use for the alliance or adapted to human blood elf models would change the Humans Vs Orcs theme.

3. Finally, lest we forget, themes can change. In fact, only Warcraft 1 was truly humans v orcs. By Warcraft 3, we had undead v humans v orcs v night elves - and it was squashed down to horde and alliance of which humans play a part in both factions. And again, lest I remind you, this too can change

[Mace]

I play a human in real life, no reason to do it in a fantasy game too.

really? I bet warcraft is not the only game you play, and almost all games you play as a human, can you think of why this is by far the overwhelming race choice for an avatar?

ever thought of why the heroes in your movies are almost always human or human like?

[ravenmoon]

given that the kingdom of alterac was technically part of/allied with the horde once upon a time, the lore already exists to support this possibility, however i'm pretty sure that boats long since sailed.

i wouldnt be all that happy about it personally, as much as it would never effect me in the slightest as i agree with the sentiment that playing a generic boring human in a fantasy MMO is just booooooooooooooooooooooring (for me anyway), it would just feel really horribly shoehorned into the current political climate inside the game.

much respect to you dude, like the response. Respect your view even if i may not agree with it being boring.

[ravenmoon]

I've already explained the loopholes in this through the old thread where you were arguing this should be the counter to High Elves being on the alliance.

oi, in the other thread, this was not the topic, i was trying to let the high elf lovers see how high elf as a playable possibility had no chance of happening as it would imablance the factions too much , only thing that could sufficiently counter that was humans on the horde, which is a good idea for other reasons i had talked about there and in much older posts.

'Rot' is not reversible, first off. You can't just suddenly make something not-rotted. Even if you did, by your explanation it would just rot away again shortly thereafter. They're still corpses after all, they don't just stop decaying.

dead things are dead, they don't get up and walk around. See what I'm saying here? it's a fantasy story because usual logic has no application here, in this story, dead things can get up and walk around, if they can do that, then we can equally write that they get magically healed or some other method.

it's a story, you write things to serve a purpose you want, and you write a good tale about it if you want it to be successful. Oh don't you think the citizens of lorderon becoming alive again is not highly desirable and cannot serve a purpose? Spent pages explaining this purpose.

Second, humans =/= elves in the franchise. You can argue for days that you want humans to be on the Horde, but the only way to do that would be to give the Alliance Orcs. And when that happens, why would we bother with the factions at all anymore? Make everyone neutral, and then this whole explanation is unnecessary.

as a creator and developer you don't imagine rules to keep you from doing what you need to do or really desire to do. who says that allowing humans to be on the horde means orcs have to be when humans have been on the horde as forsaken without orcs being on the alliance, and in WC2, humans also joined the horde and orcs didn't have to join the humans either in that scenario.

no one says orcs have to = humans. You forget we the players, makers, writers etc, we are all humans, not orcs, humans will always have an advantage in the story if you want this to be hugely popular or stay hugely popular, and if you want the horde as popular as the alliance, you would give them some more recognizable and identiable as human group than just the undead that are currently there.

Third, reversing undeath is easy: You KILL IT. A dead undead is back to being dead. A reversed undead is back to being dead. You're failing to understand that undead are not just suddenly exploded from life; They are KILLED AND RE-RAISED. The only way to have an undead is to kill something and bring it back to life. To reverse undeath is to kill it again. To 'remove the rot' is impossible because they're STILL DEAD, and will just rot all over again.

Now we're fumbling over words and terminology. hey I am in a fantasy universe resurrection and raising the dead occur, both to living and undeath states, in fact undeath was a condition magically created, it's quite shocking and impossible it can be magically cured or reversed ( and you know what i mean).. or do you want me to use the term "solved" now?

Fourth, you're acting under the assumption that the Horde WANTS humans. Which they don't. Maybe a very non-vocal few do, but quite frankly most of the Horde do not want humans. We're already having trouble finding any more reasons to keep undead around, let alone human-like undead.

Not wants, the horde needs humans, and this comes not from a lore basis, but a very practical one to do with the franchise, marketing, gameplay, game balance, faction balance. We've tried a horde without humans on an MMO setting, and it's not working , we've thrown the kitchen sink at it, and still the alliance is more popular. Furthermore, I don't think anyone wants a horde with no humans in it in a movie, because that = losing.. unless the focus is a 3rd party, in which case the conflict between the two sides would take a secondary role and will have to until the horde gets humans. And we have a perfect way for the horde to get living humans why aren't we doing that again?

And undead were always meant to be a short term thing, secondly there is no reason why a cure should cause them to cease to exist meaning, for as long as wow is around they can be around if that's what we want. Ever considered that this treatement only works on some of them? we could write that. Instead of being a treatment or a cure for all undead you use it on, it could be a one time event that hit a specific area - maybe meteor, maybe something from the twisting nether, maybe a work of the old gods, maybe Elune's doing, or perhaps a greater naaru? final use of Titan machinery that gets blown up. Algalon's intervention? and that's just for the possiblities it comes from a 1 time event.

Or we could write Cenarius and the druids found a way, or maybe it was the Aspects, Malfurion and Thrall that found the way, or it was something to do with the WEll of Eternity or Waters of life from Panderia, a clever mage and alchemist, a mysterious character who leak his solution he knows will only work on some of the undead to the forsaken and the alliance who both use it to take out each other. The forsaken use it to change 6 of their top rogue spies human and infiltrate SI:7 whiles the humans weaponize it into a bomb to convert all the forsaken but get shocked when they discover only some fof the forsaken are changed, not all and they still hate their guts alive as much as they did undead... gaining flesh doesn't change what happened.

Fifth, and this is purely bias: Keep your humans away from my undead. Humans suck, undead are badass, I don't want my undead ruined by your shitty humans.

now that is just subjective. you may not be saying that when the new human models come out. but you need to understand these horde humans have nothing to do with the alliance, and that is what people are struggling. But then men have always worked better with illustrations, and I don't have a trailer to give you to demonstrate.

[Skronk]

much respect to you dude, like the response. Respect your view even if i may not agree with it being boring.

thats fine dude, my assertion regarding it being boring is not meant to represent a reason as to why it would not work or whatnot. its just a matter of personal taste

[Al Gorefiend]

Humans in WoW are a lot older than the game. Even if you want to do your fancy-smancy RPing and RP your human as a teen/young adult, he'd still be old enough to surpass the events of WoW.

That said, for a human to be BORN into the events of MoP or early WoW, having a few humans who'd support the Horde or peace would be a no-brainer (look at Anduin)

for the average 30-50 year old Human, just think of what you've seen in your life. Orcs have destroyed your home twice, butchered your family no doubt as the human population isn't all that big, if you've chosen to flee from Lordaeron to Stormwind in WC3 or vice-versa in WC1-2, you've lost everything to the Orcs and want only the peace to rebuild.

With that, unless you want to play a Human to RP some "Im a loner rebel QQ" or a child, I don't see it possible for Humans to join the Horde.

[ravenmoon]

Humans in WoW are a lot older than the game. Even if you want to do your fancy-smancy RPing and RP your human as a teen/young adult, he'd still be old enough to surpass the events of WoW.

That said, for a human to be BORN into the events of MoP or early WoW, having a few humans who'd support the Horde or peace would be a no-brainer (look at Anduin)

for the average 30-50 year old Human, just think of what you've seen in your life. Orcs have destroyed your home twice, butchered your family no doubt as the human population isn't all that big, if you've chosen to flee from Lordaeron to Stormwind in WC3 or vice-versa in WC1-2, you've lost everything to the Orcs and want only the peace to rebuild.

With that, unless you want to play a Human to RP some "Im a loner rebel QQ" or a child, I don't see it possible for Humans to join the Horde.

areed, there is no way alliance humans would join the horde.

but then forsaken humans are already on the horde, and if some of them became living again, that would also be humans on the horde, although not quite as you thought it might be. How'd you feel about those?

[Jessicka]

Humans in WoW are a lot older than the game. Even if you want to do your fancy-smancy RPing and RP your human as a teen/young adult, he'd still be old enough to surpass the events of WoW.

That said, for a human to be BORN into the events of MoP or early WoW, having a few humans who'd support the Horde or peace would be a no-brainer (look at Anduin)

for the average 30-50 year old Human, just think of what you've seen in your life. Orcs have destroyed your home twice, butchered your family no doubt as the human population isn't all that big, if you've chosen to flee from Lordaeron to Stormwind in WC3 or vice-versa in WC1-2, you've lost everything to the Orcs and want only the peace to rebuild.

With that, unless you want to play a Human to RP some "Im a loner rebel QQ" or a child, I don't see it possible for Humans to join the Horde.

Not all Humans are Alliance though. Those in Lordaeron became Forsaken if they became undead, or they joined or took shelter under the Argent and Scarlet Crusades. Not many actually sought refuge in the south with Stormwind. There's also a great many mercenary, criminal and other groups of humans who are not a part of, and in some cases are opposed to the Alliance. The same is true for most, if not all the races of Azeroth.

[Vasaru]

You might as well market it as a different franchise, because I can barely recognize the original Warcraft universe as it is now.

Expanding the universe is fine, of course, but it has to stay within certain parameters to keep it recognizable. They're crossing that line too often.

I agree with the above. Silvermoon and Lordaeron being Horde is also something I've never liked. Horde pallies feels weird too.

Also, I doubt any human would have reason to actually join the horde. Not even the forsaken, they're a lorelol IMO.

[Deleted]

The Horde want nothing to do with your sharp edges and disco dancing....no.

Is it cause most of your races already provide sharp edges?

[ravenmoon]

I agree with the above. Silvermoon and Lordaeron being Horde is also something I've never liked. Horde pallies feels weird too.

Also, I doubt any human would have reason to actually join the horde. Not even the forsaken, they're a lorelol IMO.

They did, but we've moved on from there, no use crying over split milk, they were put in becasue the game needed it

there is a transition that is required going to a full MMORPG .. certain things that didn't matter or worked well for an RTS won't for an MMO.

why do you think Druids could not only be alliance and only be male? - the change was gameplay
or warlocks only horde?
They kept paladins allinace and shaman horde only for classic, and removed that in TBC

it worked no problem in an RTS, but not in an MMO that requires 2 -factions. They felt they wanted a game based on 2 factions, so although by the time of WC3 we had 4 factions, it was cut down to 2 again, that's why night elves join the alliance and forsaken humans the horde - yes they gave horde humans way back then. And not many people liked it, I didn't like it, and I still don't, I'm not moaning over it.

fast forward through decisions like blood elves on the horde or night elf mages or tauren paladins and priests etc etc, and you would fast reach the conclusion that a 2-faction MMO system cannot be balanced without humans on both sides or no sides. Living humans at least, although human, people do not identify with being zombies. the undead humans can be cool to play, but the main draw has always been human.

Blizzard may feel they can avoid making humans available on the horde to solve the balance issues, it's their decision, but they have an excellent way to include the living versions through the foraken or to a lesser extent as vampire forsaken or one of the other human groups. If this doesn't happen, you'd continue to have people rolling alliance, and you'll continue to have a very horde centric progression because the focus would be necessary to keep you picking horde, ensuring a rather bad tale.

fix the problem well, people saying oh you can't have humans on the horde, it won't work, it's absurd, it's crazy, absolutely not, it's stupid, it will ruin the orc v human. I say BS to all that, it doesn't have to, the reality is that the game needs it, as long as there is an mmo and you have a 2 faction system, both need to have LIVING playable humans available. The two humans don't have to be equally promientn, but they have to be a group a playing population would aspire to play. This rules out using traitors or gullible brainwashed cultists, no one wants to play those.

[Hotsforyou]

I would convert every single toon that i have to Human. That is the one thing i hate about horde is that there are no humans.

[Mace]

it seems the bulk of the opposition is largely "humans can't be on the horde or i t will no longer be orcs v humans".. which is a perception issue rather than a genuine one.

Show these guys in a trailer or advert and they'd get it, these humans won't feel like they have anything to do with the alliance. Especially if they use the blood elf model rather than the alliance human model. That would be a very good idea, making the humans both attractive and very different from the alliance both in theme and appearance, it would also make rolling a horde human and alliance human not feel like your rolling the same thing.

Not seeing convincing reasons this won't work well. I can see people struggling to dissociate human from alliance.Very few got far enough of the Syndicate, Defias bros, cultists, and those who didn't like the forsaken being used only had a problem with undeath being curable.. their posts showed they didn't see or understand the presentation -

e.g. one guy it seemed clear felt that the condition been cured meant that this automatically meant you could "cure" every undead at any time, it felt like he thought the end of the undead was being proposed clearly what is not been said