Shadowcraft Values - Stat Priority

[EzG]

Ok so I was at around 94% mastery before checking out shadowcraft. Since then I have gone down to roughly 7k mastery or around 74%. I increased my crit to about ~35% with 9k value and haste has about 10k value with ~36%. I have tier 16 2p. Is this right? Dropping my mastery which was previously ~12k to so low? Or have the stat values changed lately. I'm unsure if I should drop all of that mastery for the extra crit/some haste. Or stay with full mastery.

[EzG]

Ok so I was at around 94% mastery before checking out shadowcraft. Since then I have gone down to roughly 7k mastery or around 74%. I increased my crit to about ~35% with 9k value and haste has about 10k value with ~36%. I have tier 16 2p. Is this right? Dropping my mastery which was previously ~12k to so low? Or have the stat values changed lately. I'm unsure if I should drop all of that mastery for the extra crit/some haste. Or stay with full mastery.

We don't need 2 posts on this. -Kael

[Maelstrom51]

Shadowcraft will undervalue mastery for most fights in SoO. It gains value respective to your other stats whenever you switch targets or spend time off target.

[Kael]

Shadowcraft will undervalue mastery for most fights in SoO. It gains value respective to your other stats whenever you switch targets or spend time off target.

It's behind for AoE, certainly, but since we're on the subject, has anyone actually run the sims to make sure we're right and mastery DOES win out on cleave/time off target (short of energy capping off target)? We already came to some unexpected results with respect to haste in the past; seeing where crit with the 2p lines up is at least worth looking at. My instincts remain with mastery for all situations where poisons should be especially powerful with respect to everything else, but instincts have been wrong before.

[fierydemise]

It's behind for AoE, certainly, but since we're on the subject, has anyone actually run the sims to make sure we're right and mastery DOES win out on cleave/time off target (short of energy capping off target)? We already came to some unexpected results with respect to haste in the past; seeing where crit with the 2p lines up is at least worth looking at. My instincts remain with mastery for all situations where poisons should be especially powerful with respect to everything else, but instincts have been wrong before.

I did a somewhat quick and dirty analysis for time off target with ShadowCraft about a month ago. The answer appears to be, if haste is more valuable than mastery, so long as you don't energy cap while off target haste will remain more valuable than mastery. While its certainly true that haste loses value off target, so does mastery in the form of lost DP procs and envenom.

Full analysis (and convenient spreadsheet) here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...9#post22401919

[Kael]

I was curious specifically about the effect of crit on multi-target scenarios; crit's value is obviously split across multiple fronts, but if you're looking to maintain rupture/DP on multiple targets, how does that line up now that we've got the 2p having an effect on energy as well?

I strongly suspect that it falls behind both haste and mastery for multi-/time-off target, but it would seem asinine to just assume so after some other surprising results (and yes, your link is precisely what I was referencing). Also, if you ever nail down a good way to get EP values for cleave I'd be fascinated to see the results.

[fierydemise]

I have an idea about how to think about the 2 target rupture cleave scenario but I haven't had time to experiment with it.

A couple weeks ago I did a little test in ShadowCraft to motivate the analysis but never got around to doing the analysis. I hacked ShadowCraft to handle two different situations, first a situation where your rupture is being applied to 2 targets with no loss in envenom uptime, basically I magiced combo points out of midair to see what would happen, then I did the same thing but this time counting those rupture cps against the cp resource pool leading to less envenom and less envenom uptime.

Results:
Baseline DPS:333676.7

yellow_hit:                                3.05916649119
agi:                                       2.95938919146
dodge_exp:                                 2.19118094382
haste:                                     1.50391975236
crit:                                      1.45050882244
mastery:                                   1.38738064897
white_hit:                                 0.794424029684

2x Rupture Magic CPs, DPS: 455191:

agi:                                       2.88066816289
yellow_hit:                                2.56300034594
dodge_exp:                                 1.6900302358
mastery:                                   1.47025930377
crit:                                      1.30078718002
haste:                                     1.03214424645
white_hit:                                 0.58568763657

2x Rupture Real CPs, DPS: 422238

agi:                                       2.94202222731
yellow_hit:                                2.75815658063
dodge_exp:                                 1.86637584522
mastery:                                   1.47123320699
crit:                                      1.41779728445
haste:                                     1.17665594637
white_hit:                                 0.620148701929

This basically follows expectations, in our magic CP case the value of haste declines substantially because of the substantially increased energy regen and it is somewhat stronger in the real CP case but energy regen is still higher than before. Mastery substantially increases in value from the additional VW and dp ticks and crit loses some value from the additional energy regen although it does lose less value because of the crit is less dependent on energy regen.

TAKEAWAY: The reason I didn't want to share this simple test is simply that its incomplete, it assumes that the player somehow keeps a 5 pt rupture and full dp uptime on 2 targets. This is somewhat unrealistic and likely biases the results somewhat, I suspect toward mastery because lower cp ruptures have lower energy efficiency but I'm not certain. There is a lot more to be done here but the basic results do appear to confirm that mastery increases in value haste decreases in value and crit remains relatively stable in a two target rupture multidotting scenario however this analysis probably isn't precise enough to quantify the magnitude of the effects.

[Kael]

I suspect that the reason crit is dropping in the "magic" scenario more than the attempted "real" scenario has to do with Seal Fate, the 2p, and energy (CP) required to maintain those ruptures cutting into envenom. If you're seeing a low envenom uptime, more crit would mean more CP per ability, and fewer energy (averaged) per ability.

My initial instinct based on these (admittedly "beta" results) is that we might still go with our instincts to support mastery as ahead for cleave, but probably isn't by as much as we expected (if it is at all, in the end), so we might question the wisdom of using FULL mastery for cleave... under the gear set that was presented here.

Is there any chance you're fairly sure the primary difficulties are in modeling 5 CP ruptures and maintain DP 100% on both targets? I know that once you can even model this you'd need to run a lot of tweaking around to find general rules for stats across many characters to get a final answer on a "general" recommendation for cleave.

[fierydemise]

I'm reasonably sure the primary issue is the 5cp assumption but I'm not entirely certain. The big question mark is how to handle envenom cps, from experience when switching targets every 12 second getting off full 5cp ruptures is unlikely but quantifying exactly how large those envenoms are isn't immediately obvious. The primary downside of rapid target switching is that you are wasting energy on less than optimal efficiency finishers, it should still win out but not necessarily by the margins shown above. One of the things that makes me strongly question the results above in that envenom uptime in the multi-rupture case is quite comparable to envenom uptime in the single rupture case which seems incorrect however if combo points are treated as a completely fungible resource between targets with no actual understanding of what multiple targets are (as the above analysis does) then that conclusion makes more sense.

[Kael]

One of the things that makes me strongly question the results above in that envenom uptime in the multi-rupture case is quite comparable to envenom uptime in the single rupture case which seems incorrect however if combo points are treated as a completely fungible resource between targets with no actual understanding of what multiple targets are (as the above analysis does) then that conclusion makes more sense.

Iiiin theory it shouldn't have a huuuge effect... anticipation would have some serious problems, but with similar total CP, you could hit the envenom, swap targets, get your other CP generated, switch targets to maintain DP, switch back, rupture, gen CP for envenom, envenom, rinse and repeat. Unless I'm following envenom's interaction with anticipation poorly, it should have a relatively minor impact on envenom uptime. Checking as if you have MfD for the cleave settings might yield more accurate results; it won't count the anticipation build (depending on the mechanics in the engine).