Garrosh 10 v 25 balance issues

[Promdates]

You don't need to, but there is basically no reason to let any of em through, at least on normal.

Hate to be the dick about it, but there is a reason to let one of them through... that's having higher uptime of damage from that one person you have running over to the other engineer NOT having them spend that time wasted running and killing a target you don't even have to.

Who cares that the star does damage, position properly and you're fine. It's not like there's a lot of healing going out other than to the tank in phase 1.

[Ailylia]

It is honestly just a mixture of both. There are casual/semi-hardcore/hardcore alike in both 10 and 25mans.

Obviously 10mans would be easier to put together for a guild than a 25m so yes the number would go down b/c there are flat out more 10man guilds than 25m guilds.

The 10man obviously have their own challenges with alot more dependance on personal responsibility and if you lose a person it is very intense to get them back up or it could mess the whole attempt up whereas 25m can lose a few people and it is not so bad. In the same token if you are able to form a 25m than you should have an advantage to use those number of player to ur advantage with more CDs/utility/etc.

I appreciate your input, however I am not talking about 10 v 25 in General, I am referring to mechanics on this boss in very specific detail. The thought experiment was, assuming an equally skilled/geared 10 man or 25 man which would have an easier time defeating the encounter.

My conclusion now is that its a wash, even though I maintain the whirling corruption adds should be changed to be slightly more manageable on the 10 man side. I could go without that but what I'd really like to see, for both 10 AND 25, is the empowered whirling corruption that happens right before the third intermission to be moved to 4-6 seconds AFTER the raid returns from that intermission. I think on both difficulties, getting the third intermission phase is pretty much a soft enrage mechanic, and although is not guaranteed a wipe, the chances are very very high that if you get that third intermission, you are going to wipe, and I think this is because the whirling corruption adds are impossible to handle before you are taken into the intermission.

Since Blizzard has demonstrated many times that NORMAL modes should be about handling the mechanics and less about a strict dps check, I think this should be changed, as this presents a very strict dps check for both 10 and 25.

[celinamuna]

Hate to be the dick about it, but there is a reason to let one of them through... that's having higher uptime of damage from that one person you have running over to the other engineer NOT having them spend that time wasted running and killing a target you don't even have to.

Who cares that the star does damage, position properly and you're fine. It's not like there's a lot of healing going out other than to the tank in phase 1.

My point being that p1 on normal doesn't matter, for what it's worth you can let 2 of them through and cd for it. Seeing how as you move into p2 fight basically resets, p1 is +- irrelevant.

[Deleted]

10man = party
25man = raid

thanks

Please post constructively.

[Stommped]

I understand how that feels more chaotic on the 25 side, however the data suggests its more of a hard enrage on 10 than it is on 25. Though that could be explained by a larger statistical spread in phase 1, I don't have access to that kind of data. Still, I think 25 or 10, its an unintended soft enrage.

Well you're feeling is wrong. As far as heroic, 25 man guilds do not kite the minions simply because it is an easier strat. The reason behind doing this mechanic is because the sheer amount of adds and their HP makes it too difficult to kill them all AND beat the P3 DPS check (afaik Method was the only one able to pull this off, maybe more now that there is more gear out there). I don't think you realize the complexity behind kiting the minions, by far the highest % of our wipes were to mistakes here. It's very easy for this to get screwed up and snowball out of control. But it had to be done in order to beat the P3 check.

I know you are only talking about normal mode, but I think it applies to heroic as well.

[Ailylia]

Yes I'm probably wrong about everything.

However after all this, I don't want Blizzard to nerf the fight, but if they do I hope they do it by just moving the one whirling corruption to not happen within say 10 seconds of entering the realm of Y'shaarj, and not some 5% health nerf or something, at least that way you have to do the mechanics properly.

[nightfalls]

Yes I'm probably wrong about everything.

However after all this, I don't want Blizzard to nerf the fight, but if they do I hope they do it by just moving the one whirling corruption to not happen within say 10 seconds of entering the realm of Y'shaarj, and not some 5% health nerf or something, at least that way you have to do the mechanics properly.

I'm pretty sure normal Garrosh is quite easy to do on 10 or 25. Also keep in mind, he was killed first by a 10 man guild (even if there was no real "race" to him by the highest end guilds) who is now well into Heroics themselves (so they aren't just bads).

[Deleted]

I've done both 10 and 25, and it's alot easier to coordinate it in 10m. In 25m there is a much higher risk for your average raider to accidentally interrupt the same target because it's really messy to call out on TeamSpeak who takes which out of the 4 targets.

In 10m it's very easy to assign on the go who takes what MC since it's only 2 of them.

MCs were never an issue in 10m for us. For me it just feels like you are looking for an excuse why you havent killed Garrosh in ur 10m guild yet. Or if you actually killed it, you're looking for an excuse why it took you so long.

While I don't find this fight hard on Normal at all, there's a few things I'd like to point out.

1. The whole interrupt debate. I don't see how interrupting 4 adds on 25 man is harder than interrupting 2 adds on 10 man. Even if you say it's harder to coordinate, you still got a lot more interrupts available overall, so it would be really bad luck, if EVERYONE with an interrupt goes for the same target(s). Don't tell me, you can't manage to interrupt 4 adds between 25 players, cause that's just BS.

2. I think this is one of the returning arguments when it comes to raid size. You only have 1 combat res and you have a lot less raid walls. So the margin for error I'd say is actually smaller in 10 man. If you lose someone early on, you res and it's fine. But for your average guild, it's probably more likely that someone else is going to drop from something and then you're screwed. The longer the fights last, the more mechanics, the bigger the risk of fucking it up obviously.

3. Maintaining a 25 man guild is a lot harder and therefore there's fewer of them. But as others have said, 25 man isn't easier just because more 25 man can kill bosses. It's more likely due to the amount of really bad 10 man guilds compared to the amount of bad 25 man guilds. Everyone knows, that if you carry 10 bads in a 25 man group, the good players will just leave and go 10 man with the competent players. If you're already raiding 10 man with bad players, your only option it to keep struggle or go Flex.

Anyways, Garrosh Normal isn't a hard fight, if you have competent players. I'm almost sure, that if there were logs from all the 10 man guild struggling, you'd be able to point out the personal mistakes every single time. You'd be able to see flaws in the tactic used, people not doing enough dps compared to their ilvl etc. There's always going to be pros and cons about both raid sizes but I honestly don't think that the difference on Garrosh is enough to claim that the fight is ultimately harder on 10 man.

2.

[cyqu]

What 10 man doesn't have TWO interrupts? Do you just raid with 1 tank 2 priest healers and 8 priest dps?

Actually, even with 8 priest dps you have 8 interrupts. Theres no way any 10 man raid doesnt have interrupts for MCs.

did you even read what he said?

[Jetjaguar]

did you even read what he said?

Yeah, I read that he has a gross misunderstanding of how the fight works in either 10 or 25 man difficulty

[Lunareste]

I guess we should also nerf the other 13 encounters on 25 man because they're harder than in 10s.

Heaven forbid one fight is harder on 10 man.

Warning: Please dont falme bait / mock. -Azshira

[Sesshou]

However after all this, I don't want Blizzard to nerf the fight, but if they do I hope they do it by just moving the one whirling corruption to not happen within say 10 seconds of entering the realm of Y'shaarj, and not some 5% health nerf or something, at least that way you have to do the mechanics properly.

I disagree. For one, that will fix itself as your raid gets more gear and he never reaches a 3rd realm. For two, it actually adds a soft dps check to make it more interesting in that if you optimize your strat and raid to get more dps on Garrosh, you can avoid that potentially nasty situation.

[Nzete]

We killed it on ten man (two tank, two heal, two dps with some off healing - spriest + ele shaman). The most difficult part was the empowered whirling corruption. Next in line was having both healers MCed at the same time.

[Aboubacar]

Basically no coordination or organization at all required, just 10 players that have a clue how to play game + understand boss mechanic. just make sure everyone gets the fight

[Hulkovius]

Basically no coordination or organization at all required, just 10 players that have a clue how to play game + understand boss mechanic. just make sure everyone gets the fight

Just just just. Just kill the boss? Make sure everyone knows the fight. Yeah thats kinda basic isnt it? You cant carry ppl in 10 man HC this early stage of the Tier.

[Deleted]

In my experience of 25/10man of the fight, I can say I think the 10man was a joke compared to 25man.

[Deleted]

Well you're feeling is wrong. As far as heroic, 25 man guilds do not kite the minions simply because it is an easier strat. The reason behind doing this mechanic is because the sheer amount of adds and their HP makes it too difficult to kill them all AND beat the P3 DPS check (afaik Method was the only one able to pull this off, maybe more now that there is more gear out there). I don't think you realize the complexity behind kiting the minions, by far the highest % of our wipes were to mistakes here. It's very easy for this to get screwed up and snowball out of control. But it had to be done in order to beat the P3 check.

I know you are only talking about normal mode, but I think it applies to heroic as well.

Kiting isn't easier and yet Method managed it with much lower ilvls across the raid?

Also the standard argument is that more people = more complexity, but somehow putting 1 guy on something is harder than the entire raid?

[Deleted]

Don't know about normal but purely from the amount of wipes it took Paragon when compared to Method and others, and having to solo-heal it at that + from the videos I have seen, 10man seems like an incredibly difficult version of the fight. Also Paragon was 3 item levels behind Method on their first kill.

10man in general has to do deal with a vastly inferior gear level when approaching the bosses for the first time and on top of that, 25mans have their bonus loot called Warforged. I would say it is rather immanent for these reasons that 10man is harder.