Why bring a DK DPS to a 10 man group?

[Wycked]

10 man's wont exist next tier. This post is irrelevant.

[Skarssen]

Darthmetatron,

You are right. Always have been. Everyone else playing DKs has been wrong this whole time. Only you know the truth.

Thank you for your service to DKs everywhere.

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Intressting to see that you take Vereesà as a example. Probably one of the best DK:s you can have. Lets kick of and compare other classes world best players in ranking. Bring the player and do it with same skill what do we have??

Vereesà is awesome no matter what but we need to compare same skill for all other players also how does it look when you do that??
And dont ask me to do links for logs i cant because im new to the forum and not allowed to post links...

So, what would you consider "good"? If all DK specs were in the top 5, would that be good? Top 10? Top 3? At what point is DK damage acceptable for you? Ahead of mages and warlocks? Rogue? Warriors and paladins?

What exactly would make you happy and say, "you know, DKs are in a good spot"?

[Sosuke Aizen]

DK has one of the lowest DPS and worst raidsupport.

Our DK is constantly in one of the top spots. DK's bring battle rez, melee/ranged haste and nasty dps... I like to pewpew on my hunter so what do I know?

[Deleted]

Darthmetatron,

You are right. Always have been. Everyone else playing DKs has been wrong this whole time. Only you know the truth.

Thank you for your service to DKs everywhere.

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So, what would you consider "good"? If all DK specs were in the top 5, would that be good? Top 10? Top 3? At what point is DK damage acceptable for you? Ahead of mages and warlocks? Rogue? Warriors and paladins?

What exactly would make you happy and say, "you know, DKs are in a good spot"?

As i posted in a update i can keep posting updates for the best if you are to lazy to read them.
Update HC Galakras
I just checked some logs on Galakras. We ofcourse dont do well against casters here so lets just look at Number one players These are HC fights not normal.....

Monk: 517094
Warrior 506494
Rogue 464848
Paladin: 449185
Enhancement: 417821
Druid: 413107
Frost DK: 387143

Cleave fight Protectors:

Warlock: 962356
Monk 770038
Mage 690845
Priest 600846
Rogue: 548712
Druid: 547946
Shaman: 522684
Paladin: 509131
Frost DK 485606
OMG Last a Hunter 458576

These are just number one logs on the fights if we compare same same. I can keep going to post logs and most of them show same result. DK is lowest not useless but lowest but it probably doesnt do anything because we are Utility bringers and for raid Leaders it doesnt count what classes you should pick if you just see logs...


Update: Wrong to take Galakras its a cleave fight but frost should be huge on that fight anyway because we have massive cleave... or...
anyway its melee compare and those that is number one isnt probably running in towers so its a fair log anyway.

[Deleted]

I just checked some logs on Galakras its a singel target fight.

Galakras single target? What?

[Deleted]

Ops sorry for that will do a update... its anyway Galakras.

[Orangetai420]

Yes, but in the case of lesser guilds you often WON'T replace people. Which means that class balance actually matters more. In a top 10 guild you often have the choice of equal geared and skilled toons/people. Other guilds don't, which is why it can matter.

Basically I'm saying don't look too narrowly at it. "That which is seen and that which is not seen" as Bastiat wrote.

Class balance is so close that it won't make a difference as long as you have a brez and most buffs. If you are still failing its the players, not the class.

[Skarssen]

As i posted in a update i can keep posting updates for the best if you are to lazy to read them.
Update HC Galakras
I just checked some logs on Galakras. We ofcourse dont do well against casters here so lets just look at Number one players These are HC fights not normal.....

Monk: 517094
Warrior 506494
Rogue 464848
Paladin: 449185
Enhancement: 417821
Druid: 413107
Frost DK: 387143

Cleave fight Protectors:

Warlock: 962356
Monk 770038
Mage 690845
Priest 600846
Rogue: 548712
Druid: 547946
Shaman: 522684
Paladin: 509131
Frost DK 485606
OMG Last a Hunter 458576

These are just number one logs on the fights if we compare same same. I can keep going to post logs and most of them show same result. DK is lowest not useless but lowest but it probably doesnt do anything because we are Utility bringers and for raid Leaders it doesnt count what classes you should pick if you just see logs...


Update: Wrong to take Galakras its a cleave fight but frost should be huge on that fight anyway because we have massive cleave... or...
anyway its melee compare and those that is number one isnt probably running in towers so its a fair log anyway.

Please tell me you didn't link the 1# log for each spec as "evidence" of DK performance?

If you did I can see there is no point in further discussing this with you.

[Risale]

Uhm maybe a really stupid question but if Galakras is a single target fight, have I a) been taking drugs or b) suffered from a brain hemorrhage.
Reason for asking is that I think this fight has more then that dragon it it, I could be wrong but I do believe that 95% of the fight we are actually swamped buy hordes of bad hordies.

Then again I could be wrong, this is the fight with the 2 towers, the shamans, the riflemen, the snake boss, demolishers right??????? I am so confused.............I'll be back later have to call my mom and ask her if she dropped me on my head when I was a baby.

[Vladimeir]

Uhm maybe a really stupid question but if Galakras is a single target fight, have I a) been taking drugs or b) suffered from a brain hemorrhage.
Reason for asking is that I think this fight has more then that dragon it it, I could be wrong but I do believe that 95% of the fight we are actually swamped buy hordes of bad hordies.

Then again I could be wrong, this is the fight with the 2 towers, the shamans, the riflemen, the snake boss, demolishers right??????? I am so confused.............I'll be back later have to call my mom and ask her if she dropped me on my head when I was a baby.

Dont you know? /afk til galakras lands thus single target fight.

[Skarssen]

Dont you know? /afk til galakras lands thus single target fight.

That is basically the strategy if you stack warlocks and elemental shaman

[Vladimeir]

Please tell me you didn't link the 1# log for each spec as "evidence" of DK performance?

If you did I can see there is no point in further discussing this with you.

Also, if you didn't notice 4 of the top 6 are tanks

[Risale]

Dont you know? /afk til galakras lands thus single target fight.

That is basically the strategy if you stack warlocks and elemental shaman

And here I am running around using DG and GfG and spreading my diseases, god I must have been dropped on my head as a baby, well thanks guys next reset I'll sit back in a corner watch the view, hey this might even be the best place to max out my fishing right there on the docks.

[Kronik85]

And here I am running around using DG and GfG and spreading my diseases, god I must have been dropped on my head as a baby, well thanks guys next reset I'll sit back in a corner watch the view, hey this might even be the best place to max out my fishing right there on the docks.

You seem to be forgetting that your raid comp is actually stacked with equally geared and skilled classes that do more damage than you.....all the time. I know you don't see it but your guild is actually full of Warlocks, they are just like....stealthed or something. Regardless next week you won't have a spot, you'll be benched for that Lock that you don't that is in the guild yet, but he's there waiting.

[Deleted]

LoL omg you really dont like people comin and tell you things that not fits you.
Kronos start and compare number one players because second guild in the world have a DK and what i have been saying before logs is hard to compare. But it doesnt matter if you look at top dps or numbers between top 100 and do a average you still end up that DK is lowest on most fight.

You can tell me im wrong stupid, noob idiot i accually dont care because people defending something thats wrong. Are you afraid of beeing out of the raid because me and some more saying we are one of the lowest overall dps classes in every fight. And you cant even show me im wrong. I have atleast posted some logs.

I have no problems if we are last on some fights and can shine on others or be in between or lower Middle. But we are not shining in any fight overall logs in the world not a singel person in a raid that do something special. As someone said before make a raid with 10 raiders all is the best you can have all have equal gear in tier and weapon and you will have to argue why you picked that class and also prove that its the best for the setup what will you take??

[Risale]

You seem to be forgetting that your raid comp is actually stacked with equally geared and skilled classes that do more damage than you.....all the time. I know you don't see it but your guild is actually full of Warlocks, they are just like....stealthed or something. Regardless next week you won't have a spot, you'll be benched for that Lock that you don't that is in the guild yet, but he's there waiting.

Our raidcomp in WoD http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000

[Kronik85]

As someone said before make a raid with 10 raiders all is the best you can have all have equal gear in tier and weapon and you will have to argue why you picked that class and also prove that its the best for the setup what will you take??

This situation doesn't exist, it didn't exist in progress like we have shown and it doesn't matter now because who ever is left trying to progress doesn't have a raid roster full or equally geared and equally skilled players.

No one thinks your a noob, no one thinks your stupid. But the scenario your painting is such a narrow set of parametres that it really doesn't matter. You will not see class changes untill the WoD beta is in the tuning phase, the current situation isn't broken enough to warrant significant PvE rebalancing. It's not that we don't want buffs, we just know they aint coming for a long time.

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Our raidcomp in WoD http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000

Warlock tanking is going to be OP as fuck! Oh you prolly need to drop some Disc Priests for Stats and Crit.

On a serious note though and if you had included Tanks then that comp might get shafted hard in WoD if you've heard what they planning for 20 man raids. You need the class signature abilities to handle mechanics because Blizz can now design a raid encounter that will actually require a Grip to clear, or a Mage with Spellsteal and so on. I'm actually hoping we might get a boss where you need to Dark Sim something to beat the boss.

[Risale]

@ Kronik I am looking forward to a balanced 20 man raid to be honest.

@Lillnovan I think I can see where you are coming from but the simple fact of the matter is that we as DPS dks don't do to shabby in 10 mans, I know that my guilds lock will out dps me and still bitch about the fact that its low because he doesn't have optimal gear (can strangle him at that point) but we can hold our own.
Yes we are not OP as fuck like locks and to be fair I don't want to be but we are not rock bottom either, you can bring parses all day long but each and every 10 (and 25) is different we are not Method, Midwinter, Envy etc and even if you take those guilds they each differ despite the fact that they are top 5 guilds.
And before you ask yes I do raid heroic 10 man we are 8/14 atm and I am up against an ele, lock, mage, 2 hunters and a rogue and still I can beat them on certain fights or come very very close and can survive more shit (don't ask me about trash as trash h8s me, my trash to boss death ratio is like 10000000 to 1).
Do I want buffs, hell yeah would be nice, am I realistic enough to know that this isn't going to happen ofcourse.

Long story short suck it up and deal with it, now if your are perma benched just for being a dk then you need to ask yourself am I doing something wrong and then you can come here and ask the people to help you sort your shit out, Kronik, Vareesa, Medenbahr and god knows how many other will help you out.
Or your RL hates your guts and you either need to look for another guild or deal with that issue in a constructive manner by maybe asking your guilds officers to help you resolve any issues.

[Skarssen]

You can tell me im wrong stupid, noob idiot i accually dont care because people defending something thats wrong. Are you afraid of beeing out of the raid because me and some more saying we are one of the lowest overall dps classes in every fight. And you cant even show me im wrong. I have atleast posted some logs.

What you posted tells me you have absolutely no idea how to interpret WoL data in a way that even remotely approaches statistical validity. That is why I am discounting your position.

[Deleted]

Darthmetatron,

You are right. Always have been. Everyone else playing DKs has been wrong this whole time. Only you know the truth.

Thank you for your service to DKs everywhere.

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So, what would you consider "good"? If all DK specs were in the top 5, would that be good? Top 10? Top 3? At what point is DK damage acceptable for you? Ahead of mages and warlocks? Rogue? Warriors and paladins?

What exactly would make you happy and say, "you know, DKs are in a good spot"?

Well to be honest i have already answered that question so just go back and read and you soon see the answer. To eager to pick on me so you even havent got time to read... About logs i already given my Point but, thats also some pages away...

And its not about me its about " Why bring a DK to a 10 man Group" so please keep to the subjekt.