Do you like "mastery" as a stat?

[Forgettable]

i disagree with everything you say in this thread. reforging, talent system and mastery are all awesome

Pretty much this. All of the mentioned things are good, because they add depth to the system.

[vep]

You think that having arbitrary stat increases in tree format would somehow be better than choosing between real abilities? I too like the nostalgia of putting tons of points in 5/5 +% damage in order to unlock some special ability, but it's pointless. Much better to have a real decision between engaging abilities that may affect how I play the game.

Could they do an even better job designing these abilities? Sure. But to think that passive stat increases are better?..not so much.

I didn't say that, though. I said something along those lines. Take a retribution paladin. Specialising in the haste talent tree would eventually lead you to unlock good old (and improved) seal of the crusader.

As for "engaging abilities that may affect how I play the game".... I say screw them. There's too much shit going on anyway. Classes have become too complicated and CC has become an absolute king when it comes to PvP. Because what good is a Warrior, honestly, if he can get kited all day by a Paladin? And take a look at Druids... I really wanted to play one so I decided I'd go with the flow. And then I saw huge walls of texts over their talents and I've just said "screw it" and deleted the character... I mean come on, "if not feral then this talent does this, if not restoration it does that"... Stupidity, if you ask me.
And really, as I play a ret Paladin, I've come to notice some of my cooldowns being gone (because rogues get that, too, right?) and being forced to choose between an actual cooldown, an RNG proc and whatever the third talent is.

I really despise the new talent tree. It makes me sad to see it, honestly :/

[Marxman]

Mastery as a stat is fine. The mastery mechanic for many classes is boring and unimaginative though.

Compare awesome masteries like Elemental Shaman (Chain Lightning machine gun!) to super boring masteries like Surv Hunter (+% damage that only affects half of our abilities). That's the main issue with Mastery in my opinion.

[Nanaboostme]

Mastery would be better if you could actually choose your mastery

[Grubjuice]

the thing with mastery is that some masteries are more interesting than others.

as opposed to crit which is always crit and haste which is always haste, mastery is supposed to reflect the essential concept of the spec. and in some cases it does and in some cases it doesn't

For example:
Arcane mastery, Demonology mastery, Brewmaster mastery, Beastmaster mastery,i think those embody the core essence of each spec.
Mistweaver Mastery, Marskman Mastery, Guardian Mastery are totally meangingless and/or boring and/or seriously flawed.

[redwitchy]

Really depends what spec/class I'm playing..

On my Ele sham its awesomesauce! On most other classes I play I don't seem to notice it too much. Admittedly I'm quite casual now compared to back in Wrath and Cata when i min/maxed, but I'm kinda not too bothered about it anymore. Thats not to say its good or bad, its just my opinion now since i care less about min/maxing overall. Voted no

[Ryve]

I love it. I think it gives Blizzard an opportunity to allow you to enhance your class/spec in a very unique way. If anything they should nix Hit and Expertise.

There's little unique about these things. Anyone who wants to optimize is going to insert stat values and reforge however the calculations tell them. It's gotten to the point where hit/exp might as well be passive, at least that way there'd be less wasted stats.

[Kelimbror]

I didn't say that, though. I said something along those lines. Take a retribution paladin. Specialising in the haste talent tree would eventually lead you to unlock good old (and improved) seal of the crusader.

Right, you want to spend points in arbitrary places to unlock abilities that should be baseline. In essence, you want regressive and arbitrary design.

Classes have become too complicated

I can't take this statement seriously.

[Orcindauh]

Mastery should be a more interesting stat other than X% more fire damage etc.

I do like how they did frost mages mastery, it actually adds an interesting visual, every other mastery is pretty much X% chance to do so and so damage or X% more pet damage etc etc.

[NoiseTank13]

I can't get on board with Reforging being a great addition. I understand and appreciate it being put in to make item pieces not completely worthless to your spec and builds, but over time it just became a gigantic math chore as well as a gold-sink every time you get an "upgrade". I think I can suffer without it.

EDIT: I suppose to keep OT, Mastery was a better implementation than Armor Pen, but some are boring (Guardian Druid. Bonus armor. Zzz) and some are not (Icicles look fun)

[seije]

for most classes, Mastery is pretty much just a % damage, % healing, or % mitigation buff. All in all, i feel it's a pretty boring stat. What I'd LIKE to see happen to mastery, is for it to be something that changes a class's strength in some way, or covers for a weakness.

the way i see it, mastery should work as a slider between the following:

HEALERS:
Single Target Healing |------------------------o--------------------------| AoE Healing

TANKS:
Mitigation |--------------------------o-----------------------------| Damage

DPS:
Single Target |---------------------------o--------------------------| Multi-target/AoE

and depending on class strengths and weaknesses, Mastery could either push you to the left or the right.



example 1:MW monks are great at AoE heals, but are much weaker at single-target throughput (i.e. tank healing). Maybe their mastery could buff healing to players currently the target of Soothing Mists, or reduce damage to whomever they channel on. that way, if a raid team has a bunch of classes that are great AoE but weak tank healing, one healer gem/reforge into mastery and BECOME a tank healer. And of course, this could work vice-versa as well.

example 2: Warriors are pretty low on damage when it comes to tanking. perhaps their mastery would increase the damage they do to targets affected by weakened blows. That way, if the warrior feels he has enough mitigation stats, he can start reforging into damage. And on the flip-side, monk and DK tanks (who already good damage) could have their mastery buff their mitigation in some way... oh wait, that's how they currently work! And it's fantastic!

[Rheckameohs]

Some masteries are really fun: like Wild Quiver on hunter and Elemental Overload on shaman.

But many are super dull and need a rework. All the ones that say "increases (frost fire shadow, etc) damage by x%" need a looking at.

This, right here.

Warriors walk a fine line between these two extremes, or at least Fury does. Strikes of Opportunity for Arms is fun, though. As far as other classes go, Hand of Light is a neat mastery as well, and so is Blood Shield.

Actually, death knights have the best and worst of the stat. As awesome and game-changing as Blood Shield is, Frozen Heart and Dreadblade are really, really "meh." This might be a little controversial, but for Frost, I think Killing Machine should be its mastery, and they should bring back Blightcaller for Unholy, with the added perk of increasing the damage of Scourge Strike and Blood Boil on diseased targets.

C'mon Blizzard. Do it.

[Cheekun]

I like the idea of mastery in principle. However in actual practice it tends to be underwhelming. When it was first implemented i felt like it was going to be that unique stat that does something interesting depending on your class. With some classes, we actually get this. Others... not so much.

Take paladin mastery for instance, specifically prot paladin. Its essentially a straight buff to the potency of your SoTR, which is actually pretty cool. It also competes with Haste, our strongest stat (in a sense anyway). So there is some level of number crunching and debating to be had.

Other classes, like mistweaver monk, its outright pointless or boring. Here lies our problem, Some classes it doesn't even pay to even justify mastery existing. This should change, I feel like mastery should do one of two things.

1. Buff a particular key ability in such a way as to make it competitive amongst other similar stats.

2. Grant something completely unique to the class, were each percent has a higher chance of having this event happen. Be it a proc of a specfic class/spec based effect. A proc of an existing ability, or the additon of a proc for some stat or something of that nature.

The second chocie is obviously slightly op if balanced incorrectly. But i think it would make mastery have some inherent value. Extreme care would have to be taken to insure that other stats would also be beneficial as well. But i still would like to see some curveballs down the road.

[Deleted]

I don't mind looking up stat weights etc to reforge my gear but f.e. on my arms warrior its apparently worthless so it feels weird trying to avoid a stat when upgrading my gear.

If haste/crit/mastery would be equally important and allow different playstyles it would be interesting but right now I don't like it.

[Glaziola]

Love mastery.

''Blood death knight''

[Slatch]

for most classes, Mastery is pretty much just a % damage, % healing, or % mitigation buff. All in all, i feel it's a pretty boring stat. What I'd LIKE to see happen to mastery, is for it to be something that changes a class's strength in some way, or covers for a weakness.

Totally agree with how mastery is just a straight increase without much nuance for many classes. For some there is some nuance, but for most it's pretty straightforward while appearing to be complicated or interesting. In the end most break down to a % increase that may or may not be better than haste/crit. The exception here are tanks, but even then some tanks don't really make much choice as one stat outweighs the others. And some tanks the choices are there.

Similar to how seije suggested mastery possibly changing the way you focus, what about a mastery that worked with your rotation to possibly change it slightly? Here is an example with how it applies to Warlocks.

Warlocks special resource all start at lower numbers than their current base amount. Think like 2-3 embers for a Destruction Lock. As more mastery is gained, more ember bits are gained. There would not necessarily be a sweet spot for amount of embers, but each Lock would need to figure out what was comfortable for each fight OR just find a number they are happy with to always use if they don't like reforging often. A player with trinkets that proc often way be happy to use 3 embers while one with longer spaced trinkets might like 5. A player who really pays attention will want a different amount than a person who routinely caps out on embers due to inattentiveness. Basically a Lock could sacrifice throughput for convenience or burst. This could similarly be done for Demo(Demonic Fury) and Aff(Soul Shards).

[Kelimbror]

Actually, death knights have the best and worst of the stat. As awesome and game-changing as Blood Shield is

See, this is where the misconception starts. Blood shield is not 'game changing'. It doesn't change anything that you do. You are already going to use death strike for self healing and b/c it hits hard. It's effectively part of the rotation. It doesn't magically make the ability useful in a different way or suddenly make you want to push it even more. It's a rotational, heavily used ability if you removed the mastery.

Maybe pro level DK tanks can utilize it to the maximum potential, but the majority of players would be unaffected in terms of what they do without it. This is not an interesting or 'game changing' mastery. It's actually the opposite. Feeling OP, or like a beast, b/c your mastery passively affects something in an awesome way is still just passively affecting something.

[judgementofantonidas]

No. Pure and simple. Blizzard needs to get over their need for tanks to take damage from every hit. Improved chance to block when you cannot get off the hit chart is almost as useless as dodge that cannot be pumped up high enough to count for jack diddly squat.

[eschatological]

Frost damage, bleed damage, shadow dmg, blood shield, etc. There are enough that the system needs to be revisited. +% of x dmg is wholly uninteresting.

Add to that:
increased armor
icnreased pet damage
increased magic damage
etc
etc
etc

None of these change your rotations or playstyle, no matter how many people say otherwise. The priorities are still the same as you use those abilities regardless.

Let's take a look at those "boring" masteries:

1) Frost damage in frost DK: only affects HB, frost strike, NOT Oblit, so it devalues by 1) fight, mastery being more important on AoE fights where you're HBing, 2) playstyle, with mastery devalued in 2H, which oblits more.

2) Bleed Damage in feral: only affects three of feral abilities, including their main finisher. Devalues Ferocious Bites, Mangles, Swipe (on AoE), can lead to an interesting "multi-DoTTing" technique in 2-3 target feral with Rake, etc.

3) Shadow Damage in...unholy I guess? Only affects Scourge strike bonus damage, death coil, gargoyle damage, not pet damage. Makes mastery more beneficial on high movement fights where your pet may have crappy uptime (IDK if that's the case for unholy DKs, thinking of it from a hunter perspective).

4) Blood shield? Really? That's the definition of an interesting mastery.

5) Increased armor, guardian. Really the only uninteresting one on your whole list.

6) Increased pet damage in BM, shifts mastery based on single-target, AoE, high movement fights where your pet might have crappy uptimes, etc.

7) Increased magic dmg...I assume you're talking enhancement (yes, boring) or SV, but even in SV the value of mastery shifts across AoE or ST fights, as Improved Serpent Sting is a potent source of damage and haste is devalued in fights like H-Wind Lord, etc.

So, yes, I don't consider these masteries "boring." Not if you're a min-maxer. Sure, none of them fundamentally change your playstyle (except in cases like Blood Shield and multi-Raking and some other examples), but since when do haste and crit do that? The only classes I've ever cared about Haste was all about reaching a certain haste breakpoint, and then magically my DoTs had extra ticks. It didn't involve anything I had to do.

[TheWindWalker]

No. Pure and simple. Blizzard needs to get over their need for tanks to take damage from every hit.

And the laugh track begins. Blizz have been bending over backwards trying to get tanks to start using dodge/parry gear, again.