No US 10 man heroic kills on garrosh?

[Ailylia]

That's because they're not debating that there isn't a 10 man guild as skilled as some in the EU, they're debating why that is the case.

[Alltat]

Europe does have twice the population of the US, so it's not that surprising.

Explaining why EU guilds are more prone to do 10 man compared to US guilds only requires you to understand quite how many different languages are spoken in Europe. If a Dane wants to do hardcore raiding with other people who also speak Danish, they're probably not going to be able to get a lot of 25 man guilds going. So every server gets one hardcore Danish guild, one hardcore Polish guild, one hardcore Czech guild, one hardcore Finnish guild, and so on. All ten man and none of them interested in merging.

[Raiju]

Europe does have twice the population of the US, so it's not that surprising.

Explaining why EU guilds are more prone to do 10 man compared to US guilds only requires you to understand quite how many different languages are spoken in Europe. If a Dane wants to do hardcore raiding with other people who also speak Danish, they're probably not going to be able to get a lot of 25 man guilds going. So every server gets one hardcore Danish guild, one hardcore Polish guild, one hardcore Czech guild, one hardcore Finnish guild, and so on. All ten man and none of them interested in merging.

It's more that 10man just isn't trashed and insulted like it is in the US.

[Kalmah]

What does this have to do with it? U think Americans having problems about talking in their native language? The reason there is a lot of guilds with the same native language is that its easier to express yourself and being more comfortable communicating. You got that point right.

My point is the exact opposite. Since the US doesn't have language fragmentation like the EU does, all the top players gravitate towards 25-man.

In the EU, top players that don't want to play in an English speaking guild are kinda forced to go 10-man. As an example, it's the reason Paragon went 10-man, they wanted to stay a Finnish speaking guild but recruitment options were too limited to stay competitive as a 25-man guild.

[Angelicat]

Having just reached H:garrosh 10 and doing him for an hour, and watching videos on the fight, I don't think the fight is hard like how siegecrafter or paragons (to a lesser extent) is hard. There's a lot of DPS checks throughout the fight you have to make and if you don't the fight becomes significantly harder.

I'm not blaming our comp at all since there's more we can do to improve our DPS, but it's one of the few times I wished we had some of the higher DPS classes in our raid group instead of myself playing a shadow priest and such. I'm guessing 10 mans in the US kind of suffer from that in a way from just having a smaller pool for players.

[Scathbais]

and i suggest you reading a bit closer. 10man heroic garrosh in Murica has not been slained.

I despise the term Murica. It also makes you sound like an idiot.

[lockedout]

US 10 man HC is the real hardcore difficulty.

That aside I would imagine that WoW has a more negative stigma in the US? Educated guess.

Everyone knows that.

[Ailylia]

Pisses me off because I could stand around at work and talk about my fantasy football team for hours and no one would bat an eye, but mention I play WoW and people treat me like a degenerate.

[coocoo]

This talk reminds me of the demoscene and how popular it used to be in europe, while barely anyone knew what it was in the US.
I guess computing/geek culture is (or was) more popular/accepted in europe.

[Deleted]

Anecdotal evidence of an unnamed and therefore unknown example..
Let's look at a prominent example, of a well known and respected top guild in the world, shall we?
PARAGON...... From their website, and their FAQ..

keep in mind, this was written when Cata was current, and World first race for DW kill was on..
http://www.paragon.fi/articles/paragon-qa-we-answered


So we see, that's not quite what you are saying here..
Also, it's fairly known amongst those who frequently visit or visited the top guilds websites, how they actually raid... Ensidia too..
Ensidia had an app requirements list up prior to Cata, which clearly stated how you must be able to basically raid 24/7 up until the World First race is over.
Most of them falling back to the probably most casual approach once they are done.. Raiding once a week.

Anyhow....
College costs an arm and a leg in the US... Students need to work a lot more than EU students have to.
Regular Jobs.... EU members have shorter work week hours (generally), and the income is normally higher, hence they don't have to work so long, or even take up 2 jobs, unlike many Americans have to.
On that note, many Americans need the second job also because Americans have a tendency to live off credit cards, buying all kinds of stuff they couldn't afford. EU residents usually don't do that. They spend the money they have, and maybe one or the other smaller loan. That's a general tendency, conditions may vary by country..
And last but not least, the infrastructure. On a task where every digit point of output matters, the internet speed is a key factor. The infrastructure in the EU generally is way ahead on that end. The US neglected that part brutally. The once leading country on telecommunication and information tech, allowed itself to fall behind by about 10 years in technology. In many rural parts it's even further behind.

It's true that education in SOME European countries is "free" (Paid via taxes). Not sure about the work week, I believe the standard work week is about 37 hours in a lot of EU countries. SOME EU students don't have to work if they a) Have parents who can help them out, b) Have some savings or c) Accepts not to have any money for activities like café's clubbing, going to the movie etc.

The income is higher in SOME EU countries - specially in Scandinavia I'd think. But in return we pay 48% of that higher income in tax in Denmark for instance. How much do the average American pay in taxes?

You're right about the infrastructure but again, only in SOME EU countries. I mean, there's a huge difference between living in Scandinavia + Germany and UK and then living in say Poland or Greece.

[Glurp]

10man guilds in US are more of a social setting whereas the more hardcore guilds are 25man.

[Starghlin]

Remembering of course that Avast are Australian, and life is easy here.

[Hexz]

Remembering of course that Avast are Australian, and life is easy here.

That's Very debatable, the cost of living in Australian cities are among the highest in the world, if your working full time here your doing a 38 hour week, with most people that do full time easily doing around 50+ hours, those people are studying are also basically living week to week, the one advantage we have with out studies is hex allows us to pay off our university fees once we finish

You could easily give many reasons as to why AVAST a Oceanic guild are not up there with the Eu guilds, i mean compare the time difference example someone made in the us being 4-6hours depending on including a lil island, the time difference in all of Australia is at least 3 hours spread, 5 hours when you include New Zealand, and of course there is that blasted 200-300 ms people in this part of the world play at.

Overall the biggest advantage EU has really is more players, same goes in the US region when you factor where the OC guilds are doing, less rep since less players.

[Radio]

That's Very debatable, the cost of living in Australian cities are among the highest in the world, if your working full time here your doing a 38 hour week, with most people that do full time easily doing around 50+ hours, those people are studying are also basically living week to week, the one advantage we have with out studies is hex allows us to pay off our university fees once we finish

You could easily give many reasons as to why AVAST a Oceanic guild are not up there with the Eu guilds, i mean compare the time difference example someone made in the us being 4-6hours depending on including a lil island, the time difference in all of Australia is at least 3 hours spread, 5 hours when you include New Zealand, and of course there is that blasted 200-300 ms people in this part of the world play at.

Overall the biggest advantage EU has really is more players, same goes in the US region when you factor where the OC guilds are doing, less rep since less players.

Having been a part of the oceanic scene for a number of years, I can also tell you that no prominent oceanic guild has been able to pull off the extreme progression hours that a number of the top guilds do for more than a few days at best, the raiders here just don't want it. I've also found that in general our approach to raiding just isn't quite as hardcore for whatever reason.

[Orcindauh]

Are people actually arguing that where you're from effects how well you play and progress?

It's nothing but coincidence that the EU has generally better/ more hardcore players.

[Radio]

Are people actually arguing that where you're from effects how well you play and progress?

It's nothing but coincidence that the EU has generally better/ more hardcore players.

Different cultures have different work ethic and different levels of individuality, two of the many traits that can affect performance in raiding, and two of the many traits that different cultures can show differences in. It's not entirely farfetched to consider that different cultures lend themselves better to raiding than others.

EDIT: Brainstorming some other cultural/nation traits that could easily affect raiding for shits and giggles:
- level of integration of technology
- geographical/language differences
- free time (and attitude towards it)
- nation-wide network infrastructure
- cost of living
- acceptance of geek/nerd culture
- weather (lol)

You get the idea.

[Glurp]

Having been a part of the oceanic scene for a number of years, I can also tell you that no prominent oceanic guild has been able to pull off the extreme progression hours that a number of the top guilds do for more than a few days at best, the raiders here just don't want it. I've also found that in general our approach to raiding just isn't quite as hardcore for whatever reason.

I guess Ascension raiding 120 hours a week in ToT until Suit Up died doesn't count then?

[Radio]

I guess Ascension raiding 120 hours a week in ToT until Suit Up died doesn't count then?

Marsz has been trying to push the guild to those sort of hours for a long time now (I had a lovely forum war with him about the topic back when I was in the guild in DS), but I can tell you based on my realid feed at the time that your quoted 17 hours a day is exaggerated and didn't last very long before it winded back down.

[Dopefreshx]

There isn't 25 good players left in Oceania, not 25 willing to raid seriously anyway.

[Knyphyn]

Games like WoW have such a negative rep here in Aus and the US in general which means its way harder to do things like get time off work. For example I read a while back an interview from Kruf where he essentially said his boss knew what he was doing for the next 3 weeks and was ok with it. Here you'd get laughed out so hard and get fired on the spot.

Another issue is connection issues. Here you get drop outs and spikes more often. When you combine that with a starting MS of about 200....one spike and you are most likely dead. Those wipes add up over time and waste the little time we have.

Another huge difference between Oceania and EU is time difference. To get the best of the best you are spread out across the country and usually to NZ as well. Setting up a raid time when you have time differences of 5hours across your raid group compared to maybe 2 hours in europe is huge.