To people whom want LFR removed: What endgame do you propose for the casual players?

[Aerna]

New dungeons every patch or every 2 patch with increased difficulty (Wotlk model)

Normal dungeons (roughly the same difficulty as current heroics) / Heroic Dungeons (BC model, more in line with mechanaar hc than with arcatraz hc)

Basically there is no 5 man content in MoP outside of challenge mode for which there is little reason to do it more than once.

Puggable flex raid content (similar to Kara/ZA/ICC 10/EDC 10/SoO Flex). A decent in game tool to build raids cross-realm.

Note that i'm not for the removal of LFR (or against it for what it's worth) i just find sad that end game experience is limited to this for a lot of players.

[Otimus]

Sorry, directly after reading that I was sure you don't know what you're talking about. TBC had enough possibilities for casual players besides BGs.

It did. But not many did it. Even the much lauded entry raid, Kara, had, relative to the population, very poor attendance.

[Normie]

For me, progression isn't just numbers or iLvl, it's the content I get access to and the content I can do. If I'm not going to use raid-equivalent gear for anything, I don't really see the need for it

There are tons of things you can "use" raid gear for that aren't raiding. Someone wearing heroic raid gear will find it much easier to solo elites, brawl, et cetera, than someone wearing blue dungeon gear.

I think that the "raid power" of raid gear should be decoupled from the outside-the-instance power of gear in general.

[Deleted]

My thought is most of the teens said "pandas, wtf I'm a big boy I don't wanna play with Pandas" and that gave cause for them to dismiss all the great things about MOP.

[Bigbamboozal]

I don't flex currently, I wanted to, but, finding a guild that is not a for gold scam operation of spam macro joins and really is an actual guild, is fucking tough to find these days, AND I cbf messing with vent, always have to spend 30min getting every tom dick and harry's levels sorted so you can hear whisper-tool and tone down chewbaka the mic distorter...then deal with the fact that they are going to try 3 attempts and some asshole (probably the person wiping you) gives up and the RL calls it.
I just find going through all the motions is beyond my care level these days. I'd have zero problems knowing the fights, and my role, I just can't stand the rest of the shit that goes along with it.
It's fucking bland.

Any yes, EARLY wotlk we pugged everything every week, and it was FUN, but that was due to the community, the majority of guilds were actual guilds not gold generating macro spam join machines, and people were friendly for the most part.

[Glorious Leader]

I dunno about "no effort at all," since if they did those bosses on the hardest difficulty, at some point those bosses were hard. And they fought to overcome them, then started farming.

I never said it's a fundamental appeal, but I think it's important. For me, progression isn't just numbers or iLvl, it's the content I get access to and the content I can do. If I'm not going to use raid-equivalent gear for anything, I don't really see the need for it

D2 was the most under tuned game ever. It was not hard by any stretch. Same for WOTLK heroics which were under tuned almost as bad as mist ones although not really. It's funny I never heard this argument being made in wotlk days. The whine was always about welfare epics never about why they should have the gear if they don't want to raid. I'm glad it's moved up a little bit but ultimately who cares if they have the gear? so long as it keeps them p(l)aying.

I actually do think character progression is the fundamental appeal of this game but I don't necesarilly think that means it has to get more difficult for people especially since difficulty is such a hard thing to measure for a community this large. I think the better question is why do you need raid equivalant gear in the first place if ilvl or numbers aren't your concern? Would it simple be better to just access the content once you overcome the challenge? I mean you aren't interested in farming easy bosses why would you be interested in going back to farm bosses you defeated already?

I really don't get the argument here. You don't care about ilvl or numbers, you just care about progression in so far as it pertains to you downing a boss and seeing future content. Well okay but if you killed the boss why would you want to go back and have to kill him again just to get gear to drop so you can move to the next boss? I mean that's just a call for more determinism and less rng and for activities outside of the raid to award more powerful gear so you aren't at the behest of the raid boss to actually drop the loot. That way the ilvl and numbers don't stand in the way and you can have the character advancement be more about you killing the boss and seeing the next content.

[Kaleredar]

You're really gonna have me defend diablo now. I mean 14 million people bought it.

I didn't say it was a bad game; only that the notion that some substantial number of those 14 million were continuously killing the same guys for years and years and years for the lols is unfounded; anecdotal evidence doesn't help.

I knew lots of people (on and off mind you) who kept going back to kill easy bosses for lvls and for loot in d2. The game was seriously undertuned and that was it's greatest strength. EVERYONE could get gear and everyone could play with everyone else. Very little segregation of the community unlike warcraft which is all about that unforuntately. The appeal was of course character advancement but not because of difficulty.

Yes, and it was also a game you only had to pay for once.

Then I would submit to you wow is a very poor rpg.

It offers "different" methods of character advancement; none are as flushed out (or frankly, as easy) as PvE endgame.

[Glorious Leader]

I didn't say it was a bad game; only the notion that some substantial number of those 14 million were continuously killing the same guys for years and years and years for the lols.

On and off that's what lots of people did. I haven't got an exact figure mind you but diablo isn't exactly warcraft. I mean yea eventually baal and mephisto do run out of things to drop for you but warcraft has continual ongoing development. It's what people did in wotlk to. If they were hardcore they just did it on a bunch of alts man.

IF by different you mean piss poor relative to almost every other rpg out there then yes. As I said character advancement in rpgs was largely always deterministic and easy as piss. Hell even Diablo with it's rng still let you trade to offset shitty rng. The developers at one point had really good deterministic systems and to be honest pvp still does but for some stupid fucking reason they completely ignore the fact that every piece of pvp gear is bought of a vendor.. pvp can't have the joy of rng..

[Kaleredar]

On and off that's what lots of people did. I haven't got an exact figure mind you but diablo isn't exactly warcraft. I mean yea eventually baal and mephisto do run out of things to drop for you but warcraft has continual ongoing development.

You also didn't have to pay 15 dollars a month to go back and kill those same guys over and over again.

Because that really wouldn't fly for a lot of people in WoW. You're purchasing 1/3-1/4 of a new game every month; you're expecting to get something new out of it that lasts you a decent chunk of time.

[Aphrel]

tbh i dont see the reason to remove lfr anymore. What annoyed me be4 was that lfr was the only way to progress your alt chars. now there are alternatives. So lfr can stay, i wont ever do it again anyway so it doesnt affect me at all.

[Rad1um]

tbh i dont see the reason to remove lfr anymore. What annoyed me be4 was that lfr was the only way to progress your alt chars. now there are alternatives. So lfr can stay, i wont ever do it again anyway so it doesnt affect me at all.

I dont understand what you mean, "LFR was the only way to progress your alt chars" so you opt to remove it completely? By that logic they should remove, heirlooms, the ability to mail your alt any gold or bags, etc...

[Kaleredar]

IF by different you mean piss poor relative to almost every other rpg out there then yes. As I said character advancement in rpgs was largely always deterministic and easy as piss. Hell even Diablo with it's rng still let you trade to offset shitty rng. The developers at one point had really good determinstic systems and to be honest pvp still does but for some stupid fucking reason they completely ignore the fact that every piece of pvp gear is bought of a vendor.. pvp can't have the joy of rng..

Because then people complain about unmatched skill in PvP. If you make Arenas "award" variable gear sometimes, then you're going to get people with good gear coming out ahead of people with bad luck, meaning they then win more often and get more gear. You can't have RNG loot in random battlegrounds, as people would just bot them even more so.

- - - Updated - - -

I dont understand what you mean, "LFR was the only way to progress your alt chars" so you opt to remove it completely? By that logic they should remove, heirlooms, the ability to mail your alt any gold or bags, etc...

I think you misread his post.

[Glorious Leader]

You also didn't have to pay 15 dollars a month to go back and kill those same guys over and over again.

Because that really wouldn't fly for a lot of people in WoW. You're purchasing 1/3-1/4 of a new game every month; you're expecting to get something new out of it that lasts you a decent chunk of time.

Well then you can understand why casual players left. They weren't getting anything new out of it because raid content wasn't something they really enjoyed or cared for anyway.

I mean it's fine for you to say it cost them 15 bucks a month but yea that's the point. For casual players killing an easy boss is fine because well they're casual. They don't want to put up with to much bs either because it's difficult or because it's time consuming (which has the same net effect if your bad at killing bosses). Properly understood the complaint from cataclysm was not so much that bosses were hard it was more that my time is being wasted here and I'm getting nothing or very little out of this experience. Which is more or less the same situation in mists which took a baseball bat to the time=reward ratio.

[Deleted]

Nope. I don't see any reason as to why there should be, either. You don't beat a game by only playing half of it.

Actually most videogames work like this. You can see the ending of Super Mario 64 after collecting only 70 stars. The last 50 stars are just for showing off.

[Glorious Leader]

Because then people complain about unmatched skill in PvP. If you make Arenas "award" variable gear sometimes, then you're going to get people with good gear coming out ahead of people with bad luck, meaning they then win more often and get more gear. You can't have RNG loot in random battlegrounds, as people would just bot them even more so.

You can make the exact same point about the competitive heroic raid scene. Actually you can make the exact same argument about raiding in general. The accumulation of gear wealth leads to some players having overwhelming advantage over others. Now it doesn't matter as much because those players aren't in the same form of direct competition but so what? The developers made changes to the pvp model so that gear matters less and less now. I think it's time pvp players had the benefit of enjoying the fantastic wonderful ecstatic world of rng...

[Deleted]

That is the real stupidity of the hardcore raiders who want to get rid of LFR. If they do get rid of LFR, it simply means that we will have 4 boss raid tiers and a ton of 5 man heroic dungeons being made instead.

TBC managed to have lots of both 5 man dungeons and raid bosses.

[Glorious Leader]

TBC managed to have lots of both 5 man dungeons and raid bosses.

TBC added one additional 5 man at the end of the expansion. Granted that's one more than mists but we got more in cata and in wotlk.

[Rad1um]

I think you misread his post.

Umm no i think I read it right. LFR was the only way to progress your alts, what exactly do you think he meant?

[Barnabas]

As a casual player I spend more of my time outside of lfr than in it. I waste time chasing achievements since I'm a returning player. I imagine grinding isn't for everyone but it passes time for me. If I were to make a wish list for other things to do than lfr I'd want more offshoot storylines like the green fire lock quest. That was a cool experience. I think Blizzard could more things with scenarios and tie rep grinds in with them. For example, you hit honored and you unlock a scenario you can complete for rep+gold. It'd spice the game up a bit and give some needed change so you aren't rinse+repeat the same handful of quests until exalted. Just some of my thoughts for right now.

[Glorious Leader]

In so far as rep grinding is concerned I think the answer is to bring back the tabard but make it universal. Do whatever you want for rep. Go fish for rep. Go daily for rep. Go dungeon for rep.