To people whom want LFR removed: What endgame do you propose for the casual players?

[Paladin885]

Maybe if they aren't devoted players try don't belong in this type of game...

But I would add a lot of hard dungeons. Like hour or two hour long ones. If thu can't do an hour then they can't do LFR now.

Or put them in proving grounds till they can do average dps. Then flex.

vanilla BRD, eh?

........me likie

[Grubjuice]

You won't get good answers, because anyone saying that LFR should be removed simply hasn't thought the issue all the way through, or hasn't been playing long enough to realize that when the game DID have more dungeons, folks got utterly sick of running them, and you had just as many complaints flying around. (just about different topics).

While the game should certainly have more dungeons, and hopefully good ones next time around, LFR isn't, and shouldn't, be going anywhere.

i entirely concur with this statement.

[DeadmanWalking]

let people do dungeons and get full epics, and make it possible to pug the old content. OR you could make LFR harder, but idk if that would help.. bad players would still queue and be carried i guess. In theory, though, it could make people actually try.

If you put epics in non-raid content then the same guys screaming now about LFR would be screaming that you can get it in easier than lfr content and the rest would be screaming that their guild would require them to do that to get a purple. Look at how much bitching there was because a purple ring was at the end of a daily rep grind.

[Duronos]

vanilla BRD, eh?

........me likie

That place was huge, it could take hours if your group decided they were going to do a full clear and even then nobody ever went for full clear and it still took hours. If you didn't have the key in a group (unlikely) then it would take a good long while. That instance is legendary for me much like Scholomance is too.

[Drithien]

My point was that if those other games worked like WoW you would be shelling out $75 per month instead of $15 per month to play them. That would add up over time and you would eventually drop one or more of those subs. That's why those games aren't comparable to WoW. As the cost of a game increases the demand for it decreases. It's simple economics. WoW has an ongoing price so its demand will decrease over time in the absence of new content. That's why it's completely different from those other games. That was the point I was making.

Oh ok, I get it now. I was mostly referring to genre identity and mechanics with my mention of those games, not prices. I see a lot of people present the reasoning that the game as a concept has become too tiring due to its age; which completely disregards the overall genre's age, and the fact that all genres and their iterations through new releases are old in essence, with just some mechanical and aesthetic improvements, yet still successful. And the fact that this game gets constantly refreshed alleviates quite a lot of the problems of its age. I mean, StarCraft 2 is practically StarCraft with better technological elements and some mechanical changes; it's not some brand new and different game, yet people bought it and played it just fine.

So, in a close-to-ideal world, with all the money the game makes, there could be an effort to produce as much content as vanilla had, for each expansion, (but for all the activities of the game, not just raiding or arena or questing, everything) to keep players happily busy, until the next. Alas we don't live in such a world.

[Chloral]

Comparing Apples to Oranges here.

If 75 heroic raiders, whom the entire world watches and enjoys watching, leave, I agree they will be replaced by the next best thing.

If 75 casual players left due to LFR being removed, and Flex being dumbed down slightly to be the pug raid, no one would even notice.

If we're going to assume all casual players will leave if LFR is removed, we have to do the same with heroic/normal raiders.
If all the Heroic raiders left due to heroic raids being removed, Blizzard would be in a pretty damn bad place. Not just because hardcore players would leave entirely, but because Normal raiders who beat the last boss would then unsub until the next raid patch.

So I consider it a pretty noticable difference between your argument.

More like, hundreds of thousands of casuals leaving and the next thing you know the "hardcores" all crying on the forums that the game is dying because of Flexible (Because they removed LFR).

[DeadmanWalking]

What I'm saying is, you two are making bad comparisons. You assume only the top 3 world first competitors would leave, yet you ALSO assume removing LFR would suddenly cause 6 of the 7 million players to up and leave.

Make valid comparisons. 75 players, percentage wise vs. the 750k or so who do even a single heroic mode, is a very small number. IF 6 of the 7 million players do LFR, and less than 1% of that leave, it is a small number. Apples to Oranges.

Would removing LFR be a deathblow? Yes. I'm not arguing against that. Just make good arguments that support your point instead of things that aren't even comparable.

I made no assumptions that world first competitors would leave, I merely called out someone who suggested that the top 3 raiding guilds leaving would make blizzard stop and pay attention. To which I said Blizzard would not even notice it as a bump in the road. 75 people no matter their skill won't make Blizzard take notice.

Try to not re-imagine what I actually say and keep up.

[Grubjuice]

I made no assumptions that world first competitors would leave, I merely called out someone who suggested that the top 3 raiding guilds leaving would make blizzard stop and pay attention. To which I said Blizzard would not even notice it as a bump in the road. 75 people no matter their skill won't make Blizzard take notice.

Try to not re-imagine what I actually say and keep up.

i would expect the general interpretation of Blizzard and perhaps even a signifigant proportion of the fans, were the top three quilds to quit, is that their were simply a new set of top three guild, who ever they might be, and they would generally forget about to the current top three if they left.

but this whole line of argument is rather spurious since it's all counter-factual.

[pallyopness]

people that think heroic raids should only be 25 man are just being assinine imo.....why the hell would you strip content from players who do not raid 25 man. Yet you complain about not having access as lower skilled players to higher end raids......

How much sense does that make....lets take someone else's access away so we can have ours? nice ideology in that....hypocrites

[DeadmanWalking]

Since you're not raiding, take the time to study your class during your offline time and learn to play.

Most people don't know they are doing something wrong and when the only experience they have of someone informing them of it is 'LOL, U SuX, L2PLY! BOOT!' They just assume your a jerk and pay you no heed. Find a way to get people informed without being insulting would go a long way towards people looking up how to play better.

[The Iron Fist]

You won't get good answers, because anyone saying that LFR should be removed simply hasn't thought the issue all the way through, or hasn't been playing long enough to realize that when the game DID have more dungeons, folks got utterly sick of running them, and you had just as many complaints flying around. (just about different topics).

While the game should certainly have more dungeons, and hopefully good ones next time around, LFR isn't, and shouldn't, be going anywhere.

You obviously are a wrath baby or later, because we (the casuals) never got sick of them because there were so many and they were challenging enough to sate our PvE endgame. Not to mention, alot of the gear back then was much closer power-wise (aka ilvl) than now. There wasnt a huge gap of a difference between Heroic Dungeon gear/epics/crafted than tier 5. Just because YOU don't want LFR gone doesn't mean it should stay. Endgame was just fine before LFR. Matter of fact, this community was much better/friendlier.

[MadBloke101]

Most people don't know they are doing something wrong and when the only experience they have of someone informing them of it is 'LOL, U SuX, L2PLY! BOOT!' They just assume your a jerk and pay you no heed. Find a way to get people informed without being insulting would go a long way towards people looking up how to play better.

I can only give my experience - my help to improve is given... I get back - "it is my game time I play how I want" ... even proving grounds for people I have tried to say - go, have a go - we can chat about it and see how you perceive each challenge ... I get silence and then "it is my game time I play how I want"

Helping someone who really doesn't want helping is tiring... so I don't do it anymore

[Loowes]

Flex Flex Flex

[Deleted]

Don't remove it, just make the rewards for doing it not attractive to actual raiders, such as making the gear 1 ilvl lower than previous normal e.g SoO - 521, ToT - 495 and remove the legendary item drops. That way if you raid, even casually (so not heroic) you won't need to go into lfr to get an upgrade, and people who don't want to do organised raiding can still see the content which is what it's there for.

[pallyopness]

I can only give my experience - my help to improve is given... I get back - "it is my game time I play how I want" ... even proving grounds for people I have tried to say - go, have a go - we can chat about it and see how you perceive each challenge ... I get silence and then "it is my game time I play how I want"

Helping someone who really doesn't want helping is tiring... so I don't do it anymore

Exactly I don't know how many times i have been beyond nice in trying to offer...yes OFFER not force help and was met with very rude responses. It's not that people don't know that they are doing wrong, it's that they don't care they are doing something wrong. I love how people make bad players seem as if they are all genuinely good hearted trying to get better when that is vastly NOT the case.

[DeadmanWalking]

You obviously are a wrath baby or later, because we (the casuals) never got sick of them because there were so many and they were challenging enough to sate our PvE endgame. Not to mention, alot of the gear back then was much closer power-wise (aka ilvl) than now. There wasnt a huge gap of a difference between Heroic Dungeon gear/epics/crafted than tier 5. Just because YOU don't want LFR gone doesn't mean it should stay. Endgame was just fine before LFR. Matter of fact, this community was much better/friendlier.

Just because YOU want LFR gone doesn't mean it should go. Now that your argument has been exposed as toxic wind lets move on to the community. The community only punished noobs who didn't have friends, if you were a jerk and griefer but your friends had a good laugh at all your antics then you never saw 1 disadvantage of being a griefer. Not 1.
Endgame was just fine before LFR as long as you were in the endgame, just like a night club that didn't allow a certain race to enter was just fine for you because you were not that race, you didn't like that race and you were already inside the club.
Having LFD/LFG did not make the community worse, what made the community worse was now that you had a button to avoid making a community yourself you choose to avoid making a community. People act like a random group button ruined the community but don’t want to put effort into the community unless you are forced to. There is nothing stopping you from making friends with people on your server and queueing up with those people, in fact there are advantages in doing so. For every person you know that you bring along thats one less person that may be incapable/afk. If you befriend a healer or tank you get reduced queue times, if you are a healer or tank your friends get the benefit of short queue times and you get to enjoy an event togeather while socialising on vent. The queue button does not stop you from making friends and playing with friends, you do.

[thedingleberry]

They don't want us playing at all, just farming mats to give to them, and of course paying or subs so they get their new raids. A month strike by casuals would be frightening - a months strike by hardcore pains would be a yawn - who in game would even notice?

well said.

[DeadmanWalking]

I can only give my experience - my help to improve is given... I get back - "it is my game time I play how I want" ... even proving grounds for people I have tried to say - go, have a go - we can chat about it and see how you perceive each challenge ... I get silence and then "it is my game time I play how I want"

Helping someone who really doesn't want helping is tiring... so I don't do it anymore

The reason you get that reaction is because A: They have bad experiences with it in the past. B: Humans have a hard time understanding they may be doing something wrong by nature. C: Your approach was way off. I tend to say, "If you want I can give you some suggestions on how to increase your dps by 25% and if you don't like the suggestions you can always change it back to the way you like it." If they say no walk away, chances are in time they will start to get courious as to what it was that could increase their dps by 25% and come back to you.

[pallyopness]

well said.

Guess what...they wouldn't care about either...know why? because in 1 month they would be back lmfao..blizzard looks at long term not short term. I love how people overestimate the amount of casuals that would actually do it to matter. you'd call for a strike and maybe 1000 would do it if that. Why? because casuals lack commitment and that means commitment to the game or a cause...

[Deleted]

None.

/thread