To people whom want LFR removed: What endgame do you propose for the casual players?

[Dormie]

They didn't have raid bosses with this many mechanics either, maybe we should go back to the old 'Tank and spank after collecting fire resist gear from tank and spank bosses' mechanics. We didnt have transmog either, maybe we should go back to wearing what ever horrible piece of gear was the latest tier. We didn't have reforges, maybe we should go back to wearing a cloth belt on a paladin because its secondary stats were better for us. We didn't have server transfers, maybe we should go back to rerolling toons from scratch if our server dies. We should put dark portals every where because we had them when the game was successful, we should constantly only fight red skinned orcs because hey, it was big back then.

If you don't like LFR then don't do it but don't bring this cockamamie hack logic here.

It's not hack logic, you just don't seem to get it judging by your examples that don't compare.

- - - Updated - - -

How would you feel if Blizz said "Your $15 a month now covers everything up to heroics. Access to raids will now be an additional $15/mo but they will be much, much harder." Would you pony up that extra $15/mo?

People want to see the content they pay for. They don't want to subsidize content for other people who then insult them for not being as 1337 as they are.

Flex/normal/heroic raids. If you can't manage flex at the least, you don't have room to whine about not seeing content, it becomes a personal problem at that point. Noone is keeping you out of a raid. If the game were as important to you guys as you make it sound, you'd make time.

[DeadmanWalking]

How would you feel if Blizz said "Your $15 a month now covers everything up to heroics. Access to raids will now be an additional $15/mo but they will be much, much harder." Would you pony up that extra $15/mo?

People want to see the content they pay for. They don't want to subsidize content for other people who then insult them for not being as 1337 as they are.

LFR was not created to give people access for $15 a month, LFR was created to give casuals something to consume so they could spend 100% of the end game resources on Raid content. $15 dollars a month means nothing as PVPers who don't do raid content still don't get raid rewards. By pushing all the post-leveling resources into raiding, spitting up an easy sloppy seconds LFR they can keep the resource focus entirely on raid content. To make any other content to give casuals something to consume would pull drastically from the Raid resources.

If you hate raiding then I can understand trying to take out LFR. If you like casuals getting dungeons all the time I can understand taking out LFR. If you love Raiding you should be saluting LFR'ers for keeping you neck deep in Raid content.

None of this crap about not needing them in the past and it was still good, you didn't get as good of raids as often as you are getting them now because LFR exists to justify spending every bit of post-leveling resources on Raid content. 46 raid bosses over 18 months is amazing.

[purebalance]

They don't want us playing at all, just farming mats to give to them, and of course paying or subs so they get their new raids. A month strike by casuals would be frightening - a months strike by hardcore pains would be a yawn - who in game would even notice?

Sorry what? The people who claim to be casual play more than the supposed hardcore players. So if the people who were truly "hardcore" players which to me indicates time played, stopped playing it would hurt the game more than the real casual players.

So yes please go back to farming mats for the 40 hours a week you put into the game that you're claiming you can't raid. That is what most of the people who are dedicated to LFR play.

LFR is not about casual vs hardcore it's about decent/good vs awful players. If you can't pull more than 60-80k dps in SoO with the required ilvl, you're not casual you're bad.

[Grogo]

46 raid bosses over 18 months is amazing

Churning out isn't the same thing as quality though.

[Zafire]

I would suggest very long dungeons that appeal to the eyes. BRD and Stratholme are good examples. If someone doesn't have the time, motivation to research proper rotations, or a mix of both, they should accept that they cannot do everything the game has to offer. When I played BC I didn't even do endgame, and in wrath I didn't even get to raid ICC beyond the first few bosses. However, I accepted that and wasn't even the slightest bit bitter. The game should be about options and the type of content you CHOOSE to focus on to strengthen your character. You should only "need" to focus on what your schedule and motivation allows.

I would also add back in progression raiding, where every single raid has relevance for the course of the entire expansion. The item level jump between raids does *NOT* have to be that big. People would still crave "the best". They could also do something savvy like making the final boss drop gear that has a higher ilvl than the rest, making the entire raid relevant simply for that reason. This would make it significantly easier for people to get into raiding (Since weaker geared people could join in at any point in the expansion).

[nekobaka]

Raiders can be casuals too and have been for years. So the question would be what long lasting endgame does one propose for non-raiders. There have already been options and it comes down to slowing the gearing pace down to that of raiding which some "casuals" dont want. The other factor is that there are players who spend as much or more time in the game than progression oriented raiders and as such do not fit well with the more casual oriented non-raid content. The casual umbrella and those who associate with it are such a wide variety that one non-raid solution might not fit them all just as one raid solution(LFR) did not fit them all. You got the casuals who spend a few hours a week in the game who are ether soloists or varied play and then you got the 40 hours a week non-raider who pigeon hole themselves in a select amount of content.

Personal the no-lifer claiming casual status can go suck a fuck.

LFR was not created to give people access for $15 a month, LFR was created to give casuals something to consume so they could spend 100% of the end game resources on Raid content. $15 dollars a month means nothing as PVPers who don't do raid content still don't get raid rewards. By pushing all the post-leveling resources into raiding, spitting up an easy sloppy seconds LFR they can keep the resource focus entirely on raid content. To make any other content to give casuals something to consume would pull drastically from the Raid resources.

I think the only cross between the dungeons and raid team, and other end game content is largely the art team and otherwise for endgame there is the questing team which is also in charge of scenarios and then there is the dungeon and raid team. LFR allowed the developers to pull resources away from dungeons and throw it all into raids with the quests and scenarios largely untouched. The PVP team is also a separate team and they have been pushing out new stuff. PVPers shouldnt feel compelled to raid in order to enjoy PVP just as raiders should not feel the need to PVP to raid.

As it stands as long as "casuals" or those who falsely believe they represent all of them tell Blizzard to keep it up with LFR then the developers will do such. If players really put up a shit fest and asked for more dungeons and refused to run LFR then there would have been a possibility for resources to shift back to dungeons and even the LFR level rewards being brought back down to the non-raid content which LFR gobbled up in order to maintain its popularity over non-raid content. If you have a problem with LFR changing resource development spread then you need to stop backing LFR and start backing for alternatives that rival it.

Well, no. People that surpass the minimal requirements for LFR are not guaranteed a place in a flex raid. LFR gives everyone that has the patience a guaranteed opportunity at seeing whatever it is they're queued up for as long as they meet the requirements.

And if your group dissolves, does that still make it guaranteed? As you described it is no more guaranteed of seeing the content than running into the instance yourself.

[Paarthurnax]

LFR needs to go away, and Flex needs to take its place IMO.

LFR breeds apathy and entitlement into the community. It doesn't promote players to go above and beyond the absolute minimum or think critically about the boss fights or their own play. It doesn't help people become better players at the game or their class. It doesn't prepare players for any content of a difficulty beyond LFR (heavy hand holding) because it doesn't punish players for doing things badly. It doesn't promote any sense of community or pride in what you are doing or accomplishing. Their is no longer any sense of a JOURNEY to the game. LFR is only good as a psuedo pre-raid gearing mechanism, but that can be done in healthier ways (5-mans, scenarios, valor/justice vendors).

Flex raiding is what LFR should have been, it helps promote all the things LFR doesn't and works to improve communication, teamwork, and trust between players, even if they are all people you have never seen before. If "casual" players can't be bothered to put forth enough effort to join and positively participate in a pug flex mode raid to kill content and get gear then id say they shouldn't really expect to be handed or experience much of any "end game".

[Maximus Testiculos]

LFR is wonderful. What is there to hate about it? It does not ever effect raid groups' progress or gameplay. You don't lose your super-duper achievements because now i am able to enter dungeons and raids, too with people who want quick action instead of waiting hours. Was spamming the chat channels for that last guy to fill the spot any better? Why is there so much hatred for it by some people?

[Ecwfrk]

Flex/normal/heroic raids. If you can't manage flex at the least, you don't have room to whine about not seeing content, it becomes a personal problem at that point. Noone is keeping you out of a raid. If the game were as important to you guys as you make it sound, you'd make time.

So, you'll take someone with a 496 iLevel on a Flex raid? I'm betting you wouldn't.
Yet you feel you have room to whine because people who aren't as dedicated to this game get to see the same content you do?

Right now, no one is keeping me out of a raid because there's LFR. If there wasn't LFR, assholes like you would be keeping a lot of people out of raids because anyone who doesn't invest as much time into this game would be beneath you.
You're the kind of person who says things like "Hey, I don't care if you have to defend some guy in court, do heart surgery, or be with your wife because she's in labor. Blow them off and farm mats so we have enough pots for this weeks runs or we're giving your spot to someone else."

LFR breeds apathy and entitlement into the community. It doesn't promote players to go above and beyond the absolute minimum or think critically about the boss fights or their own play.

The lack of LFR breeds elitism. It promotes players enacting whatever barriers they can to prevent players from achieving what they have to preserve their feeling of superiority.
Worse, seeing "LFM SoO Flex. 535 iLevel Minimum or don't waste our time" without LFR breeds lots of "Dear sir/madam for thankness of all our customer susanexpress offer lowest price soo run get gears now only $12.43 loowest price congratulations!" spam. When all most players can get is a few pieces of 496 from Timeless Isle without a lot of gold farming or paying someone to carry them through raids there's no reason for them to ever think critically about the boss fight or their own play because they'll never have the gear for it to become relevant.

LFR is wonderful. What is there to hate about it?

There's plenty to hate about it. Not liking it is completely valid. If you have a good guild guild filled with good players, going into LFR can be absolutely maddening. For instance, you'll never see someone in a guild group pull 5 seconds after a mass rez and then hearth just to be a jerk. And that's just the very tip of the iceburg.
But many, many people do like it despite, or even because of, the things other people hate about it.

However, I've yet to see even one valid reason for it to be removed despite thousands of posts from people saying it should be. I see lots of lame theories about how it prevent people from wanting to be better and other complete BS. That argument always boils down to "WoW is my only source of self esteem and being one of the few to see the most iconic content in the game is all that has kept me from conducting a ballistic taste test over the past 9 years"

[nekobaka]

So, you'll take someone with a 496 iLevel on a Flex raid? I'm betting you wouldn't.
Yet you feel you have room to whine because people who aren't as dedicated to this game get to see the same content you do?

Right now, no one is keeping me out of a raid because there's LFR. If there wasn't LFR, assholes like you would be keeping a lot of people out of raids because anyone who doesn't invest as much time into this game would be beneath you.
You're the kind of person who says things like "Hey, I don't care if you have to defend some guy in court, do heart surgery, or be with your wife because she's in labor. Blow them off and farm mats so we have enough pots for this weeks runs or we're giving your spot to someone else."

If you formed your own group which is your own choice to do such, would you take a 496ilvl player? If your problem is not getting into groups with others due to the standards then form your own group and invite the players you want.

[Shink]

What i would do, it would be fairly simple

1.Enable multiple guilds



With vitural realms, just enable multiple guilds and if the player doesn't even bother with social interaction and look for a guild to join to raid with, i don't think they should keep playing the game

[melodramocracy]

You obviously are a wrath baby or later, because we (the casuals) never got sick of them because there were so many and they were challenging enough to sate our PvE endgame. Not to mention, alot of the gear back then was much closer power-wise (aka ilvl) than now. There wasnt a huge gap of a difference between Heroic Dungeon gear/epics/crafted than tier 5. Just because YOU don't want LFR gone doesn't mean it should stay. Endgame was just fine before LFR. Matter of fact, this community was much better/friendlier.

I'm certain that no one appointed you the arbiter of what an entire segment of people think, but if you didn't see very vocal forums about how tired people were of running the same dungeons all the time, you simply weren't pay attention.

[Dormie]

So, you'll take someone with a 496 iLevel on a Flex raid? I'm betting you wouldn't.
Yet you feel you have room to whine because people who aren't as dedicated to this game get to see the same content you do?

Right now, no one is keeping me out of a raid because there's LFR. If there wasn't LFR, assholes like you would be keeping a lot of people out of raids because anyone who doesn't invest as much time into this game would be beneath you.
You're the kind of person who says things like "Hey, I don't care if you have to defend some guy in court, do heart surgery, or be with your wife because she's in labor. Blow them off and farm mats so we have enough pots for this weeks runs or we're giving your spot to someone else."



The lack of LFR breeds elitism. It promotes players enacting whatever barriers they can to prevent players from achieving what they have to preserve their feeling of superiority.
Worse, seeing "LFM SoO Flex. 535 iLevel Minimum or don't waste our time" without LFR breeds lots of "Dear sir/madam for thankness of all our customer susanexpress offer lowest price soo run get gears now only $12.43 loowest price congratulations!" spam. When all most players can get is a few pieces of 496 from Timeless Isle without a lot of gold farming or paying someone to carry them through raids there's no reason for them to ever think critically about the boss fight or their own play because they'll never have the gear for it to become relevant.



There's plenty to hate about it. Not liking it is completely valid. If you have a good guild guild filled with good players, going into LFR can be absolutely maddening. For instance, you'll never see someone in a guild group pull 5 seconds after a mass rez and then hearth just to be a jerk. And that's just the very tip of the iceburg.
But many, many people do like it despite, or even because of, the things other people hate about it.

However, I've yet to see even one valid reason for it to be removed despite thousands of posts from people saying it should be. I see lots of lame theories about how it prevent people from wanting to be better and other complete BS. That argument always boils down to "WoW is my only source of self esteem and being one of the few to see the most iconic content in the game is all that has kept me from conducting a ballistic taste test over the past 9 years"

Sounds to me like your problem lies with the design flaw that there isn't a way to get properly geared between raid difficulties rather than needing LFR to raid. But I'm guessing your just using people not letting you play in their raiding games as an excuse to defend LFR. It doesn't take much to get past 496. Even so, most raid leaders are more flexible than they appear if you just tell them that you know the fights and show that you aren't an idiot.
Though with your blind accusations and excuses, I'm not convinced you aren't.

Infracted: More civility and less personal insults please. [ML]

[Deleted]

Said it before, 5 man "raids". LFR doesnt do anything for me, its fun first time. But you never get that epic feeling when you kill the last boss and the gameplay is boring. Gameplay is boring because you dont get the feeling you need to max/min and need to play your best. If enough players know the tactics in a LFR its a push over. This is also why you dont get a epic feeling when you kill a boss.
This starts another problem for me, importance of dailys/proffesions. I dont get energy to do dailys or level proffesions because its not needed for LFR. Even if they were needed i wouldnt do them anyway. Because gameplay and the cool feeling working to kill a boss in LFR is boring. I gladly did dailys every day when i raided 3-4 days a week more seriously, but as a casual noway, its not worth the time. Do dailys and max/min your char you need to feel its for a fun and useful goal, which LFR is not close to be.
So what left for a casual pver then, gameplay wise? Challenge modes. They however doesnt give you cool loot and racing to get the best time might be fun for some, but they are not enough.

When you play very casual it can be hard to get 10 man going for normals/heriocs, alot easier with 5.

LFR can still be in the game, but they need to add fun gameplay for casuals, becuase its very limited today for me personally.
I would love 5mans because of the gameplay. TBC heriocs before they nerfed them was really fun. I had gameplay wise more fun then in raids. You had to use more abilities then just normal raid rotations, not always but when you did a herioc with bad gear and no cc, it could create fun scenarios.

[igame]

ICC 10 man normal and 25 man normal type raids.

[DeadmanWalking]

Sounds to me like your problem lies with the design flaw that there isn't a way to get properly geared between raid difficulties rather than needing LFR to raid. But I'm guessing your just using people not letting you play in their raiding games as an excuse to defend LFR. It doesn't take much to get past 496. Even so, most raid leaders are more flexible than they appear if you just tell them that you know the fights and show that you aren't an idiot.
Though with your blind accusations and excuses, I'm not convinced you aren't.

And he knows the fights because he did them in LFR, can't tell a flex raid guy you did them to get in a flex unless you did them and don't give me any crap about online guides which you can't make out what's going on besides the boss flailing its arms and 25 people running about. When I run a flex I ask if anyone did immerseus and when they say only in LFR I only have to explain that everyone gets puddles every 6 seconds and the rest hits harder and off we go.

[Ecwfrk]

If your problem is not getting into groups with others due to the standards then form your own group and invite the players you want.

Or, Blizzard could create a system to put players who meet a minimum level of gear together automatically to make forming such a group far more efficient but, also create different modes of raiding for those who want to be more discerning in who they take on raids. How cool would that be!?

If you grind away on the Timeless isle a bit more you can easily raise it over 520.

At which point most groups would require 535.

You should have SOME kind of gear from the most recent tier before you consider entering the current tier...

Blizzard obviously disagrees or they wouldn't put in catch up mechanics directed specifically towards gearing people for LFR in the game with each new tier.

QQ'ing that you can't do the final tier in gear from the first tier of an expansion is stupid.

Says you. Blizz obviously disagrees with you based on, well, everything they've done over the past 9 years. Badges, valor, and other such catch up mechanics make that pretty obvious. QQing about that is stupid. If you don't like it, you should have quit in Wrath.

Nobody will keep you out of flex in the future but your own lazines

That's irrelevant as the chance of Blizz removing LFR, no matter how much you QQ over it's existence, are nil. Flex might replace Normal raiding (but I doubt it), but LFR will never go away because Blizz knows many players, for whatever reason, want/need a way to access content without the requirement of finding the acceptance of a large group of other players when they have the desire to raid.

If you formed your own group which is your own choice to do such, would you take a 496ilvl player?

No. I'd expect them to do some LFR and gear up a little better. Because, there's LFR.
If there wasn't LFR, it would be moot as I wouldn't be in any position to start a flex group since I geared up using LFR myself and only moved to doing doing Flex and Normal once I had better gear and some experience with the bosses. Without LFR, I wouldn't have the gear or the experience and wouldn't be raiding at all.

But you never get that epic feeling when you kill the last boss

Killing Garrosh on a Sunday night the first week felt pretty epic. It's still a big challenge as most people are still learning all the fights for that wing and you don't get many over geared normal or heroic raiders in there to pad their gear like you do on Tuesdays.
Maybe it's not as epic as downing Kel'Thuzad in Naxx40 was, but it's as epic as downing Deathwing was on Normal.

TBC heriocs before they nerfed them was really fun.

TBC heroics were in TBC. The game was a lot younger then. They brought TBC-style heroics back in Cata and by and large, people hated them.

That's just how things are in a MMORPG. People still reminisce about how great UO was pre-Trammell or how great EQ was before Luclin. But, it's kinda strange that those break points where people often say a game started going downhill also tend to coincide with an influx of new players.
UO's sub numbers jumped 66% after Renaissance. EQ gained a 37.5% increase after Luclin (and was still going up before the release of WoW complete derailed it). And WoW added 25% with Wrath.
It's likely less about the game changing than it is about the players changing that ruins things for existing players. TBC's heroics were probably more fun because the people playing those TBC heroics with you were probably more like you than those players attracted by Wrath.

[LegionPrime]

So, you'll take someone with a 496 iLevel on a Flex raid? I'm betting you wouldn't.
Yet you feel you have room to whine because people who aren't as dedicated to this game get to see the same content you do?

Right now, no one is keeping me out of a raid because there's LFR. If there wasn't LFR, assholes like you would be keeping a lot of people out of raids because anyone who doesn't invest as much time into this game would be beneath you.
You're the kind of person who says things like

No, I wont take someone with a 496 ilevel to a flex raid. I run regular flex raids using Queue and my servers Trade Chat. My Ilevel Requirements change per flex but are usually as follows; 520 for flex 1 & 2, 535 for flex 3, and 540-545 for Flex 4. Sometimes I'll use higher requirements if I don't want to take chance of picking up a bad player who got lucky looting burdens from chests. While I don't require an achieve for the first 3 flex runs, I usually do for Flex 4. Before I get into my deeper issue here, I'll explain why. I have a full time job, a wife, and a child. I have varied interests and responsibilities that limit my game time to certain hours and times during the week. Nothing is more frustrating to me then spending the few hours a week I get to play the game I love wiping on a boss because I was lenient on my ilevel and achievement requirements. While the entire game is a waste of time, I'd like to feel that I'm spending what little time I have to play actually progressing towards the goals I set for myself. So, I create groups of players that are competent and that have likely completed the content so I make sure that I can actually complete my goals with what little time I get to play. I'm not obligated to compromise my time, enjoyment level, or standards for anyone else. And to hammer that point in even further, I've got a raid full of other people who are trusting me to build a competent group and not waste their time either. I'm not elitist, I'm just choosing to play the game in the way that's most satisfying and least likely to cause me and the people I'm playing with stress.

And Frankly, Ilevel 496 is the absolute minimum amount of effort you need to put in to become "raid ready". When I see someone trying get into a raid at that Ilevel it makes me wonder if I can expect the minimum amount of effort out of them the entire raid. People don't often think about anything other than themselves but I can tell you that it's pretty damn frustrating to join a group where a couple of players are ruining the entire raid for everyone by not knowing their class/fights/reforging/rotation/etc. I think these people forget in their self-entitlement that the other 9-24 people they are playing with may be on limited time schedules using this game as a chance to have some fun, relieve stress, and escape their day to day lives. Nothing irritates me more in WoW than those self-entitled people who have no consideration for anything other than themselves. So, I refuse to play with those people and actively remove them from my groups, because it's my decision to choose how to play. When I leveled my mage alt in 5.4 and wanted to start raiding with him, I didn't just hit 496 and then start looking for a group, I spent time getting coins and fishing for burdens and looking for every way possible to get the most optimum gear configuration to benefit both myself and the people I was going to be raiding with. Because I refuse to LFR, I found some ToT pugs and Tried to fill in the blanks with what gear I could. Most importantly, I made sure I was ready to raid on this toon so that I could be considerate enough to not waste other peoples time. Best part is, I did all of that in what little time I had to play instead of doing the minimum and expecting other people to do the rest of the work for me.

And sir, I mean no disrespect to you personally, but the attitude I kind of see in your posts and others that seem to share your opinion is a part of the overall problem here. That problem is Self-Entitlement. Everyone expects everything to just get handed to them now while putting in the very least amount of effort possible. This attitude is prevalent everywhere in WoW now. I'm not sure if LFR/D started this phenomena or if its just a greater symptom of our declining state but it's a serious problem and until both sides of the argument stop being so self-entitled this community will continue to go downhill. In the above quoted example, I don't think you may see how you may be coming off as a slight bit self-entitled. It's not other peoples responsibility to ensure that you get to join their raid group, it's yours. I see a lot of people bitching about how other peoples high ilevel requirement for flex wings make that content unavailable to them as a replacement or viable next step in progression from lfr. To this, I have to call bullshit. The truly nice thing about flex, and even normal, is that even if you cant find a group you are free to create one of your own using the same means available to the rest of the community. With about 2 minutes of "work" you could list a raid on Oqueue with a lower ilevel requirement and even have the description read that it's more forgiving or more open. Judging by the amount of people that are apparently in the same situation as you are you should have no problem finding a group with which to move into flex or normal.

To me, this is where LFR may have failed the community and helped to perpetuate the attitude; Giving personalized loot regardless of effort, contribution, and even participation. You literally have to do nothing to collect the same shiny purples that people who do a lot of work to receive get. Don't get my wrong, I'm pro LFR for a couple of reasons; LFR has slowly become the most toxic community in any video game I have every played in my entire life. It's slowly overtaking League of Legends, and that's a feat in it's own. I have no desire to ever participate in that community ever again and I'm glad LFR is around to keep most of those toxic people from spilling into most of the other ways I choose to spend my time. Two, I do believe that for casual players who don't want to put the time or effort into more difficult raiding LFR is a good place to at least be able to see and participate in that content. So I don't think that lfr should go away, but I do think that LFR needs a new role;

What I think the role of LFR should be is to allow those players who have no time or desire to better themselves as players and/or the people that cant seem to find the time to flex a way to see and experience the content and get their candies handed to them. To that extent I think that the difficulty of LFR should be reduced to a level that is incredibly easy and forgiving. I was fond of the idea of making LFR almost like a 25m scenario where you didn't even need to worry about proper raid composition to complete it. This would allow players the opportunity to experience the content and likely decrease the toxicity of the environment by removing wipe fests and other nerdrage triggers in lfr. It would also allow the people who don't care about shinies that just want to see the content a way to do it without wanting to pull their hair out.

As for loot, I do not believe that LFR should award Epic quality items. I think it should award the same quality gear as heroic dungeons, or at the very least blue versions of raid quality items. I say this for a couple reasons; 1.) because it will help act as a carrot on a stick to motivated people into flex and other modes where they can acquire such gear and 2.) Because, with the self-entitlement or raiders aside, I do believe that the people who put the effort and time into being good at their class, learning the fights, and taking on the challenge of more difficult content deserve to be rewarded. Sadly, I don't think your ever going to take away peoples need to feel like a beautiful and unique snowflake. Luckily, flex has given us a way to cater to both crowds while still providing a middle ground for true "casuals". And LFR heroes, before you jump in with the hate, please keep in mind that flex mode raiding is not terribly more difficult than current LFR raiding and that you can form a flex group in about the same amount of time it takes to wait out an lfr queue. That's what makes flex so perfect for true "casuals" because we can form a group at almost any time and complete it just like we would a wing of lfr.

[dragon171]

Nothing, casual players need to slowly die off... they make things to easy and boring, they really ruin the game. e.g they make a game rated 18 to be like a game rated for 3 year olds, that's how easy casuals want it.

[Twoflower]

Well what do casualas usually do ? Collect strange stuff, make pet battles, wipe in non heroic 5man instances.