Subtlety PvE - WoL comparisons thread

[Coldkil]

As "promised", here's a sub log for normal fights - no brag intended, i just wanted to share how i play sub spec so people can use it as reference if they inted to give a try to it.

Why normal? First, it's been from 5.2 that i no longer raid competitively; second, normal is an environment in which all three specs can bring their weight - a tight HM progression would require a lot more min/maxing and i personally would switch to combat as main spec.

Why only 3 fights? Well, after starting the reports, i discovered that WoL was putting me a lot under what and Recount or similar addon was saying to me and my raid - the reason is that melee attacks are bugged and do 0 damage. Just for comparison, WoL says i did 77 million damage on Protectors, while i actually did something like 96 millions. Anyway, i stopped parsing for other issues.

EDIT: will add new logs on this post, for easier consultation.
30/10 log
04/11 log
06/11 log

[Kaluna]

I had the same problem yesterday. WoL has been trolling me, it has reduced my damage by 20-30%, for the same uptime.
Anyone know where does that come from ?

[Deleted]

I had the same problem yesterday. WoL has been trolling me, it has reduced my damage by 20-30%, for the same uptime.
Anyone know where does that come from ?

No idea why, but same thing happened to my guild and two other guilds i talked too.

[mongoose6]

I very much appreciate you posting your WOL log here. The first few fights are actaully a pretty good sample of single target, multi-target, and target switching style fights.

[Deleted]

I had the same problem yesterday. WoL has been trolling me, it has reduced my damage by 20-30%, for the same uptime.
Anyone know where does that come from ?

WoL doesn't seem to count melee hits for some reason. It's uh, interesting!

[Coldkil]

I very much appreciate you posting your WOL log here. The first few fights are actaully a pretty good sample of single target, multi-target, and target switching style fights.

Well, i plan to do that for the next few weeks also for personal reasons since i think my rotation can be optimized a lot. I just hope that WoL fixed the white hits issue - anyway it's still good to look at uptimes and correct ability/cooldowns management.

[Oggiva]

Well this explains a lot. Was wondering why my damage on the logs were so shit compared to earlier. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Deleted]

Well this explains a lot. Was wondering why my damage on the logs were so shit compared to earlier. Thanks for clearing that up.

You were not the only one. ^^

Almost cried after yesterdays raid.

[mongoose6]

Quick look at the log editor. I disregarded the full opening sequence where FW is up for an exetened period of time and instead focused on your standard rotation. I noticed a few instances of you refreshing SnD inside of the FW debuff. Try to track the cooldown of vanish so that you can start preparing for FW at least five seconds in advance. If your current SnD isn't going to carry you through FW, refresh it with whatever CP's you have, pool energy, THEN vanish and begin eviserate spam. This way all of the CP's you generate during FW are used for damaging finishers (much easier said than done though lol). Also, this is a personal decision I guess, but I notice that you cast tricks during FW. I think you'd be better off delaying tricks a few seconds. You'll pull more dps and a few seconds of delay on tricks isn't going to cause you to lose out on a usage throughout the whole fight.

[Oggiva]

Quick look at the log editor. I disregarded the full opening sequence where FW is up for an exetened period of time and instead focused on your standard rotation. I noticed a few instances of you refreshing SnD inside of the FW debuff. Try to track the cooldown of vanish so that you can start preparing for FW at least five seconds in advance. If your current SnD isn't going to carry you through FW, refresh it with whatever CP's you have, pool energy, THEN vanish and begin eviserate spam. This way all of the CP's you generate during FW are used for damaging finishers (much easier said than done though lol). Also, this is a personal decision I guess, but I notice that you cast tricks during FW. I think you'd be better off delaying tricks a few seconds. You'll pull more dps and a few seconds of delay on tricks isn't going to cause you to lose out on a usage throughout the whole fight.

I will have to disagree with you about slice and dice here. I believe it is better in the long run to reapply slice and dice when it is falling off, not necessarily before find weakness. Based on the following reasons:
- Using slice and dice when you already have it up results in wasted combo points.
- Using finishers when at <5 combo points is inefficient (relentless strikes).
- Energy is the limiting factor during find weakness, not global cooldowns, meaning that you are not wasting a gcd casting slice and dice. (Heroism can change this.)
- Slice and dice is energy neutral because of relentless strikes. No energy spent.
- Spending combo points before find weakness is effectively the same as spending them inside find weakness. Had you not spent them before entering find weakness you could have saved them til you had find weakness up.

Note: If you still want to use slice and dice before entering find weakness you'd need at least 3 combo points for it to last throughout the entire find weakness period, assuming you can't chain cooldowns.

Delaying the use of tricks is also a bit interesting. Assuming that a shadow dance find weakness lasts 18 seconds and vanish find weakness (subterfuge and vanish glyph) lasts 16 seconds, the average time left on fw when fw and trics collide would be 8.5 seconds. With the current uptime on fw I can see that happen a lot. (I realize the abilities are used with set intervals and not at random, but with all the different versions of AoC and the boss encounters not always letting you use the cooldown when you wan't it makes the math much easier.) Personally I don't delay tricks unless it will stop me from getting off a last eviscerate/ambush(during dance/vanish). That is if I use it at all. I've been quite the slacker on that lately outside of progress bosses.

[Verain]

Those "reasons" don't matter at all. Here's your question:

The damage you lose by moving an eviscerate out of find weakness (which is what slice and dice is doing) is X. Is X more or less than the damage you lose by refreshing a slice and dice early?

[Coldkil]

Yes, my FW management can be improved - also i don't use vanish glyph cause i simply didn't realized it's a dps increase. Will make improvements.

[Oggiva]

My entire argument was that you don't lose that extra eviscerate during find weakness. You might want to read it again.

[mongoose6]

My entire argument was that you don't lose that extra eviscerate during find weakness. You might want to read it again.

If you don't refresh SnD early prior to FW debuff you will either A. Replace a 5CP eviserate with a 5CP SnD during FW debuff or B. Allow SnD to drop. Both are a DPS loss.

[Oggiva]

If you don't refresh SnD early prior to FW debuff you will either A. Replace a 5CP eviserate with a 5CP SnD during FW debuff or B. Allow SnD to drop. Both are a DPS loss.

If you are refreshing SnD before you enter FW you are spending combo points that could be spent on eviscerate inside FW, just the same as if you use SnD when FW is up. The number of Eviscerates will be the same either way. Whether you spend the combo points before or during FW does not matter, they will still be spent on SnD.

[mongoose6]

If you are refreshing SnD before you enter FW you are spending combo points that could be spent on eviscerate inside FW, just the same as if you use SnD when FW is up. The number of Eviscerates will be the same either way. Whether you spend the combo points before or during FW does not matter, they will still be spent on SnD.

Oh no no, now I see where the disconnect is. What I'm saying is to refresh it early IF you're current SnD doesn't have enough duration to carry you through FW uptime. So say you have 3 seconds left before vanish comes off of CD, you have 9 seconds left on SnD and you're sitting at 3 CP's. It's better to pool some energy, refresh SnD early (with probably 4 CP's now from HaT) and then vanish. The other way you can do it is to delay vanish, but if you delay vanish too many times during a fight, you're going to end up losing a vanish.

[Skulldouggery]

<meme>

WoL underreporting sub dps.

/sunglasses

Still at the top of the meters.

</meme>

[Deleted]

<meme>

WoL underreporting sub dps.

/sunglasses

Still at the top of the meters.

</meme>

Hehe well, underreporting everyone dealing physical damage.

[Coldkil]

<meme>

WoL underreporting sub dps.

/sunglasses

Still at the top of the meters.

</meme>

Given the mastery on SnD and good amount of haste, we're talking about 20 million damage difference - it's nearly 20% of the damage ignored in those report.

[Oggiva]

Oh no no, now I see where the disconnect is.

Nah, I understood you perfectly fine the first time. You want to refresh snd before fw if it is to drop off during said fw. I've already explained why that is a bad idea, and I don't think I can explain it any more clearly without putting more effort into it than I care for right now. Now if anyone have any arguments other than "but I don't want to use snd when fw is up" I'd love to hear them.