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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PeggBundy View Post
    Meh, I suppose it's enough if you have a few real players carrying you. Personally, I wouldn't even speak to a person with 150k dps, there's plenty of people for them to group with in LFR where they belong.
    Don't even need people carrying you. If every dps in the group is at 150k, you will clear flex no problem if you follow mechanics correctly. I've done all 4 wings on a group full of 520-530ish alts pulling 135k-160k with only a few wipes due to silly mechanics mistakes.
    Last edited by Orcindauh; 2013-10-31 at 03:26 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Don't even need people carrying you. If every dps in the group is at 150k, you will clear flex no problem if you follow mechanics correctly. I've done all 4 wings on a group full of 520-530ish alts pulling 135k-160k with only a few wipes due to silly mechanics mistakes.
    Exactly. Then you get a 540 jenkins doint 185k dps while standing in shit etc... That was 40-50k might not matter if the baddie stood and shit and died.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    Then again proving grounds is a way (I guess) that non-raiders can also "brag" about their accomplishment.

    Oh and try to remember that completing that title, does in no way make you a better player than the people who haven't (not directed at anyone specifically). Proving grounds and especially endless difficulty is incredibly tedious and boring. Many players just don't bother with it.

    EDIT:
    It doesn't. It shows that the person knows how to play his class at the lowest/slowest gear level in the game. That means very little dot snapshotting, close to no haste and no crit. You don't have to react to class abilities very much, as they just don't proc very much. There is no shit to avoid and interrupting is very easy with that long cast time.
    Your first point is pretty much why I've brought this up. I was a very good feral druid in Firelands/DS, quit before MoP and have just rejoined the game. I've gone through all the raid content in LFR but I know that will not hold any water and any other raid ach. I get now will be irrelevant because it's so late in the raid cycle. I see getting Proven Assailant as a chance to get my foot in the door once I'm a little more geared. I'm just curious about how the community at large feels about the gap they'd consider bringing.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by drockrock View Post
    Your first point is pretty much why I've brought this up. I was a very good feral druid in Firelands/DS, quit before MoP and have just rejoined the game. I've gone through all the raid content in LFR but I know that will not hold any water and any other raid ach. I get now will be irrelevant because it's so late in the raid cycle. I see getting Proven Assailant as a chance to get my foot in the door once I'm a little more geared. I'm just curious about how the community at large feels about the gap they'd consider bringing.
    If you had an significant raid achievements in previous tiers, experienced guilds will take you regardless of item level. Item level matters a bit less for guild recruitment than in pugs. It's an investment, if you can show them that you'd be worth gearing, they'll do it.

    Pugs are a whole different issue since they get no return from that investment.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperviable View Post
    If you had an significant raid achievements in previous tiers, experienced guilds will take you regardless of item level. Item level matters a bit less for guild recruitment than in pugs. It's an investment, if you can show them that you'd be worth gearing, they'll do it.

    Pugs are a whole different issue since they get no return from that investment.
    My guild had a saying (that I'm sure other guilds use)

    "We can gear you up. We can't make you care about your class or make you a good player."

    Something along those lines.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Dont know why you dont have warlocks up there aswell, but either way. Doing Proven Assailant is miles beyond the capabilities of the average LFR hero, so regardless of class you would still take it over the jenkins player.

    While it is easier on some classes, even doing it on a mage takes more skill than a majority of the wow population possesses.
    Can't say I've seen a warlock do it first hand so don't know how easy it is by my own experience.

    And it takes so little skill its negligible and the gear difference more important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  7. #27
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Can't say I've seen a warlock do it first hand so don't know how easy it is by my own experience.

    And it takes so little skill its negligible and the gear difference more important.
    The point is that little skill is far more than the average wow player possesses.
    You and I might think it is easy, but for a majortiy of the players in WoW it is extremely difficult.

  8. #28
    Did it on my assassination rogue, I guess that counts more than someone doing it on a warlock or any other facerolling class, 555 ilvl atm, just 3/14 HC. As for me, I'd check on which char was the Proven Assailant achieved and then decide... I'd also check the 540 Jenkins thoroughly, you know, he might be a good player, title is just a personal preference - some might prefer to show off their assailant and some might want to go with Jenkins cuz it sounds much better to them, but yeah, all in all - proven assailant gives you a lil' preview of what someone can do.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Beecup View Post
    My guild had a saying (that I'm sure other guilds use)

    "We can gear you up. We can't make you care about your class or make you a good player."

    Something along those lines.
    Love that phrase. In my opinion anyone with a Proven title for any PG is a character willing to think critically about their class to maximize their potential. I don't care if they are unusually skilled and 1 shot it, or spent days figuring their class out. Either way in the end a person took the time to show their skill level and probably improve their knowledge. That's the type of person I want raiding with me, even if it's only a pug for one raid.

    Edit: And if the title was earned with a known difficult class, even more props to the person!

  10. #30
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    What if he had all three PG titles? I get to have fun cycling through those for shits and giggles.

  11. #31
    This is why Flexs fails so hard.

    Its supposed to be a stepping stone for new players to go from LFR to what is a more traditional Raiding experience. But before a group will even consider taking you, you need to have full SoO LFR gear? Maybe even fully upgrade it to 2/2 with valor?

    Its an absolute joke this mode will fail to serve its intended audience, and its nothing but the communities fault for its ludacris pre group conditions on players. Look at the realistic dps numbers for those ilvls its overkill for Flex:

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic#536

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dotcha View Post
    This is why Flexs fails so hard.

    Its supposed to be a stepping stone for new players to go from LFR to what is a more traditional Raiding experience. But before a group will even consider taking you, you need to have full SoO LFR gear? Maybe even fully upgrade it to 2/2 with valor?

    Its an absolute joke this mode will fail to serve its intended audience, and its nothing but the communities fault for its ludacris pre group conditions on players. Look at the realistic dps numbers for those ilvls its overkill for Flex:

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic#536
    You can find groups for 520-540 ilvl on oqueue at any time of the day, even for the first couple of wings you can find ones looking for 500-520. It doesn't really take that long to get 520 ilvl on a char, especially if it is your "main char".

    Also, I can't take you seriously when you quote Noxxic - that site has been a terrible resource since it came out.

  13. #33
    Just throwing out some napkin math here:

    Getting a proving grounds title - endless 30 - means you're playing somewhere around 70% of a class' max capability. The average logged raider on WoL plays somewhere around 35-40% of the class' max capability. Proving ground title would imply that mechanically, you're about 86% better at a class than the average player.

    Using a rough approximation, (1+x)^2 = 1.86 => x = 0.366.

    So on average, a proven title is worth about 36.6 ilvls compared to a logged player.

    However, there's a decent portion of the population that does LFR/flex who aren't logged and in general they're less skilled than those who are, so you could probably fudge that ilvl up to maybe 40-45 depending on how generous you feel about the guy's capability.

    Edit:

    Obviously this various by spec and class, it's easier for some and harder for others, blah blah. But DPS balance has really never been better in this last decade of WoW so given the choice between a complete random, A, and a complete random with a proven title, B, I'd give B at least a 30 ilvl boost when comparing the two if there's only one slot left, assuming I were putting together a pug.

    Further edit:

    I'm playing fairly loosely with the term "max capability" because it's pretty obvious that if 70% earns you endless wave 30 then no one should be able to get higher than endless wave 50, but people obviously have gotten to the 100s. Equally, the average parse on WoL is probably more like 20% of the top parse instead of 35%. Anyway, my usage here is roughly the best you can be at tank/spank with no weird stuff involved.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-10-31 at 10:49 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariluz View Post
    You can find groups for 520-540 ilvl on oqueue at any time of the day, even for the first couple of wings you can find ones looking for 500-520. It doesn't really take that long to get 520 ilvl on a char, especially if it is your "main char".

    Also, I can't take you seriously when you quote Noxxic - that site has been a terrible resource since it came out.
    I can't take anyone seriously who thinks you need 500+ ilvl for Flex raiding. I remember when Flex was announced and lots of people preached how this was going to be a way for LFR people to try and improve on themselves and take a challenge. When in reality all it has done is allowed bad players who couldn't get through a whole instance on normal, under perform in Flex and still down the boss.

    As the OP puts it should you take an undergeared <Proven Assailant>? I am guessing all you are <Proven Assailant> then? What a joke.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dotcha View Post
    I can't take anyone seriously who thinks you need 500+ ilvl for Flex raiding. I remember when Flex was announced and lots of people preached how this was going to be a way for LFR people to try and improve on themselves and take a challenge. When in reality all it has done is allowed bad players who couldn't get through a whole instance on normal, under perform in Flex and still down the boss.

    As the OP puts it should you take an undergeared <Proven Assailant>? I am guessing all you are <Proven Assailant> then? What a joke.
    Lol, if you don't have 500+ ilvl at this point it just proves that you're lazy and looking for a carry. It doesn't matter if you can clear Flex with a lower ilvl, not even having 500 ilvl means that you can't even take 15 minutes to get freebie gear before trying to find a flex group. I'd rather filter out those people looking for a carry.

    The problem I have with the Noxxic "sims" is that they do the sims in "BiS" gear for that ilvl based off of a patchwerk fight. The factors for doing dps are:
    1) Legendary progression (no meta or cloak means that your dps is going to be terrible compared to everyone else)
    2) Weapons (even for a caster, having good or bad weapons will greatly influence your dps more than your ilvl)
    3) Trinkets (Having the right trinkets can boost your performance far beyond someone with a similar ilvl but worse trinkets)
    4) Itemization (having poor itemization in gear can lower your performance below someone else with better itemization. Especially with SoO, its fairly easy to go far over the hit and exp caps)
    5) Type of fight (Certain fights play to certain specs strengths and weaknesses - not everything is a patchwerk single target fight.)
    6) Skill (Outside of completely playing your spec wrong, there is a small variation in DPS based on skill level. No spec is really all that complicated as far as dps goes)

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Just throwing out some napkin math here:

    Getting a proving grounds title - endless 30 - means you're playing somewhere around 70% of a class' max capability. The average logged raider on WoL plays somewhere around 35-40% of the class' max capability. Proving ground title would imply that mechanically, you're about 86% better at a class than the average player.

    Using a rough approximation, (1+x)^2 = 1.86 => x = 0.366.

    So on average, a proven title is worth about 36.6 ilvls compared to a logged player.

    However, there's a decent portion of the population that does LFR/flex who aren't logged and in general they're less skilled than those who are, so you could probably fudge that ilvl up to maybe 40-45 depending on how generous you feel about the guy's capability.

    Edit:

    Obviously this various by spec and class, it's easier for some and harder for others, blah blah. But DPS balance has really never been better in this last decade of WoW so given the choice between a complete random, A, and a complete random with a proven title, B, I'd give B at least a 30 ilvl boost when comparing the two if there's only one slot left, assuming I were putting together a pug.

    Further edit:

    I'm playing fairly loosely with the term "max capability" because it's pretty obvious that if 70% earns you endless wave 30 then no one should be able to get higher than endless wave 50, but people obviously have gotten to the 100s. Equally, the average parse on WoL is probably more like 20% of the top parse instead of 35%. Anyway, my usage here is roughly the best you can be at tank/spank with no weird stuff involved.
    Interesting math but I'd like to see where you're pulling your fundamentals from. What makes you say 70% max capability? Where are you basing average raiders being 35-40%?

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by drockrock View Post
    Your first point is pretty much why I've brought this up. I was a very good feral druid in Firelands/DS, quit before MoP and have just rejoined the game. I've gone through all the raid content in LFR but I know that will not hold any water and any other raid ach. I get now will be irrelevant because it's so late in the raid cycle. I see getting Proven Assailant as a chance to get my foot in the door once I'm a little more geared. I'm just curious about how the community at large feels about the gap they'd consider bringing.
    It's the best achievement you can get. It's definitely the best you can do if you wish to be invited, yeah.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperviable View Post
    Interesting math but I'd like to see where you're pulling your fundamentals from. What makes you say 70% max capability? Where are you basing average raiders being 35-40%?
    The world of logs thing is easy, just take a look at a page like Malk normal mode ( http://worldoflogs.com/zones/Siege_o...mmar/Malkorok/ ) and you see the median rdps is about 1.4 mil. Assuming 5.5 dps, 2 tanks (each about 0.75 of a dps), and 2.5 healers as the average comp, we can divide that by 7 total effective dps = 204k dps, while the top logs of 10m normal is 485k ~= 42% for this one boss specifically. To be fair, the average player in LFR or Flex hasn't even killed normal Malk yet so this is likely to be skewed to be in favor of the average players' skill, so I dinged it a few percentage points. Healers also tend to do some dps, so again, a few percentage points dinged. Probably a better estimate would be looking for data on multiple classes on wow-heroes or something that provides a 50% median number and compare it to the top ranks for each fight, then get a median on the resulting percentage averages, but I'm too lazy and 35-40%'s close enough.

    As for endless waves, there's a wide variance among the classes in how many waves they can do as you can see: http://www.wowprogress.com/char_stat...ield.pg_damage , but the worst performing classes seem to top out at around 50 waves of endless (druid, paladin, shaman). Using those as a limit, 30/50 is roughly 70%.

    Edit: Obviously I'm being very hand-wavy here and with an engineering bias, the results are fairly approximate, but close enough to the mark. I guess a more accurate result might be proven title = 35 +/- 15 ilvls worth of gear.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-10-31 at 11:53 PM.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PeggBundy View Post
    Meh, I suppose it's enough if you have a few real players carrying you. Personally, I wouldn't even speak to a person with 150k dps, there's plenty of people for them to group with in LFR where they belong.
    if you do 150K DPS in LFR, you usually are in the top 5. most LFR players struggle to reach 100K.

    150K DPS is plenty for flex. Flex malkorok has 300M give or take at 10man. assuming 2 tanks doing .75% of a DPS, 5 DPS and 3 healers, you have 6.5 DPS. 300M HP over 360 seconds for 6.5 DPS means you need about 130K per player. and this is Malkorok, one of the more DPS racey bosses. AND i'm fairly sure that the DPS needed per DPS decreases as you add more of them to not punish groups who take more players.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    The world of logs thing is easy, just take a look at a page like Malk normal mode ( http://worldoflogs.com/zones/Siege_o...mmar/Malkorok/ ) and you see the median rdps is about 1.4 mil. Assuming 5.5 dps, 2 tanks (each about 0.75 of a dps), and 2.5 healers as the average comp, we can divide that by 7 total effective dps = 204k dps, while the top logs of 10m normal is 485k ~= 42% for this one boss specifically. To be fair, the average player in LFR or Flex hasn't even killed normal Malk yet so this is likely to be skewed to be in favor of the average players' skill, so I dinged it a few percentage points. Healers also tend to do some dps, so again, a few percentage points dinged. Probably a better estimate would be looking for data on multiple classes on wow-heroes or something that provides a 50% median number and compare it to the top ranks for each fight, then get a median on the resulting percentage averages, but I'm too lazy and 35-40%'s close enough.

    As for endless waves, there's a wide variance among the classes in how many waves they can do as you can see: http://www.wowprogress.com/char_stat...ield.pg_damage , but the worst performing classes seem to top out at around 50 waves of endless (druid, paladin, shaman). Using those as a limit, 30/50 is roughly 70%.
    It seems to me as if these are two things that can't be compared. In Malk 10N or any other raid boss, you have an additional variable which is gear. In proving grounds, all gear is normalized and thus everyone is on equal footing. You're also making the assumption that difficulty in proving grounds is linear, but I have no idea whether that is true or not.

    At the bare minimum, you should account for average ilvl for your WoL calculation.
    Last edited by Imperviable; 2013-11-01 at 03:36 AM.

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