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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    A lot of people are saying "no, only Sir Zeliek" etc.

    However, there are examples of Undead Paladins throughout the game. In Icecrown you can see several Undead mobs using spells such as "Unholy Light", "Hammer of Injustice" and "Avenger's Shield".

    Yes, lore-wise light burns Undead. However, an Undead Paladin is not simply a Death Knight as the Re-animated Crusader, Sir Zeliek and several other monsters display. A Death Knight is unique in that they are far less decayed than the average Undead and have a heavy reliance on Runic powers. Undead Paladins would be perfectly viable both lore-wise (if we assume they are using Shadow Magic) and gameplay wise.

    It would be great to see more options for the Paladin class. They could even do some minor graphical tweaks to the spell graphics although for recognition's sake may wish to keep them all with the "yellow" spell graphics.
    But 'Unholy Light' and all that, isn't what Paladins is about. Paladins is all about being imbued by the Holy Light and their faith, not abusing some light to make it unholy. That is Death Knight Unholy for.

    Even if it would be awesome to see a Forsaken Paladin and I would probably play one, can't I see that happening. As much as Draenei Warlocks don't make sense does Forsaken Paladins not make sense. If you look at it, Draenei and Forsaken are the opposite as Warlock and Paladins are. At least close. : p

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    But 'Unholy Light' and all that, isn't what Paladins is about. Paladins is all about being imbued by the Holy Light and their faith, not abusing some light to make it unholy. That is Death Knight Unholy for.
    That's exactly what Blood Knights were doing until they got the blessing from the Naaru though. They stole the power from a being of pure light. They didn't gain it through sheer faith or worship like the Humans, Dwarves and Tauren all did. Infact, the only reason they did it was because their old granted powers were disappearing as they were no longer a moral race. It doesn't even matter if M'uru willingly let it happen; as far as the Blood Elves were aware, what they were doing was stealing his power. That is neither a moral decision, nor was there any particularly strong conviction in what they were doing; essentially obtaining power for power's sake. That is not the path a "true" Paladin walks.

    Forsaken on the other hand could easily use the Zeliek angle; they may have died, and now be risen to do another's bidding, but their faith and conviction is so strong that the light still serves them. As long as the Paladin has morals and uses his power for good, the Light doesn't abandon them. Forsaken don't need to be inherently evil. They were once living after all.

    The naming of "Unholy Light" just displays to me the twisted version of the power of Light, similar to what Undead Priests use; it's essentially Shadow magic being twisted to have a similar effect to their former Light-given power. However, there are two ways it could be played and make perfect sense.

    Either the Zeliek angle; still righteous, if dead.
    Or the "Priest" angle; using shadow magic in lore, but holy magic for game-play representation only.
    Last edited by mmoc4359933d3d; 2013-11-04 at 07:43 PM.

  3. #163
    Only problem with Undead Paladins is the same with Blood Elf Druids. They do exist but they are so few in number putting them in game wouldn't make any sense lore wise.

    Undead can wield the light they just can't act as vessels for it, which is what a Paladin is. It would be like setting yourself on fire, not dying, and staying that way for the rest of your life, not a logical choice by any means.

    Those paladins that are undead do not do so willingly or are totally insane (Scarlet Crusade)

  4. #164
    Yes, it could work. I wrote an idea once of a hero class called 'corrupted paladin' which basically was a shadow / unholy paladin.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avengex View Post
    Light burning the undead? How can undead be priests using holy spells? Not so into lore so please explain for me
    Paladins put their faith in the light and ARE the light, meanwhile priests use the light like a.. "tool" and can use it.. even as undead, but it burns and hurts shitload.
    (but undead priests HEALING with light is false.. just a gameplay mechanic)

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by unholytestament View Post
    Some people aren't objecting to the idea at all, just the really crappy way you're misrepresenting existing lore to justify it.
    Please feel free to show any lies I have told or stretches I have used regarding Lore to make a point. I'm sorry if gameplay mechanics are included in my explanations. I am using facts at my disposal to discuss probability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironjaws-Mike View Post
    But 'Unholy Light' and all that, isn't what Paladins is about. Paladins is all about being imbued by the Holy Light and their faith, not abusing some light to make it unholy. That is Death Knight Unholy for.

    Even if it would be awesome to see a Forsaken Paladin and I would probably play one, can't I see that happening. As much as Draenei Warlocks don't make sense does Forsaken Paladins not make sense. If you look at it, Draenei and Forsaken are the opposite as Warlock and Paladins are. At least close. : p
    True. But before Gameplay explained it all away, Belf pallies used to "bend" the light to their will. Sun Walker taurens are not Paladins, but for the sake of Gameplay, they are. There are several race/class combos which Blizz stretched the lore for. Like Night Elf mages. 10k years ago, the night elves exiled their high elf brethren for using arcane magic. Now, "because of deathwing", the hypocrites are mages. Go figure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NSrm View Post
    Yes, it could work. I wrote an idea once of a hero class called 'corrupted paladin' which basically was a shadow / unholy paladin.
    THIS is exactly how it would work. It would be a CORRUPTED paladin according to LORE, and a reg Paladin according to gameplay mechanics.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Araron View Post
    This.It has been confirmed that the Undead Priest works only because of the shadow aspect,even though an Undead priest can use the Holy Light,just like any Undead,it causes damage to them/it pains them.
    No. All undead priests are shadow priests. Gameplay wise that wouldn't work but lorewise they are all SP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lansworthy
    Deathwing will come and go RAWR RAWR IM A DWAGON
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    There's no point in saying this, even if you slap them upside down and inside out with the truth, the tin foil hat brigade will continue to believe the opposite.

  8. #168
    The Risen at Tyr's Hand are former Scarlet Crusaders who are now undead, and employ several holy priests as well as paladins. It's clearly a non-issue.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    True. But before Gameplay explained it all away, Belf pallies used to "bend" the light to their will. Sun Walker taurens are not Paladins, but for the sake of Gameplay, they are. There are several race/class combos which Blizz stretched the lore for. Like Night Elf mages. 10k years ago, the night elves exiled their high elf brethren for using arcane magic. Now, "because of deathwing", the hypocrites are mages. Go figure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    THIS is exactly how it would work. It would be a CORRUPTED paladin according to LORE, and a reg Paladin according to gameplay mechanics.


    it would be good enough for me, call 'em whatever you want. as long as they play the same.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    it would be good enough for me, call 'em whatever you want. as long as they play the same.
    Fair enough. They aren't wielding the Light.

    THat's how I envisioned my NE Paladins as well (Lorewise, they don't use the Light, their power is from Elune, it's Lunar based - we've seen what they could do with race separated powers with the Tyrande fight in the HoT dungeon). Much like Tauren Paladins are "Sun Knights/Druids," NE Paladins are "Lunar Knights," so I suppose Forsaken Paladins could be "Shadow Knights."

  11. #171
    Did someone really say that something in the game is not lore? /boggle

    Holy spec undead priests are in the lore. Therefore it stands to reason that there ought to be a few exceptional individuals who can wield the righteous fury of a paladin, though it sear their own undead flesh. No reason to exclude it, AFAIC.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatre View Post
    The Risen at Tyr's Hand are former Scarlet Crusaders who are now undead, and employ several holy priests as well as paladins. It's clearly a non-issue.
    You know that, I know that, but who is gonna break it to the Lore Knights?

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    10k years ago, the night elves exiled their high elf brethren for using arcane magic. Now, "because of deathwing", the hypocrites are mages. Go figure.
    Night Elf Mages are Highborne, the sect of Night Elves that continued to use arcane magic but were not exiled across the sea to become High Elves and eventually Blood Elves. The Shen'dralar of Dire Maul were one such group. Now, after the Cataclysm, they have rejoined the greater Night Elf society. It is from this group, lorewise, that playable Night Elf Mages belong. So no hypocrisy took place. Go figure.

    You know that, I know that, but who is gonna break it to the Lore Knights?
    I've been trying.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    so I suppose Forsaken Paladins could be "Shadow Knights."
    NOW you are thinking outside the box. It is nice to see people say "HOW CAN WE MAKE IT HAPPEN" rather than "NO".

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    NOW you are thinking outside the box. It is nice to see people say "HOW CAN WE MAKE IT HAPPEN" rather than "NO".
    I never said it couldn't happen. I said it's highly unlikely for Undead Paladins, given the lore we have.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by S7orm View Post
    /cast Holy Wrath

    oh shit, oh shit, oh shit
    I actually chuckled and had a good mental image of that.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  17. #177
    We could call them dread knights or something. Like the old Vanguard tank, heavy plate class that wore down foes with stacks of dread.

    yes yes i believe it could work,

    get numbskull (GC) on twitter now and let him know we want it.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    We've been saying it could work as Shadow Paladins this whole time. As a matter of fact, I agreed that if the spells were made to be shadow spells, only dealing Holy damage to make sure balance wasn't affected, it would make no difference and I'd wholy accept them.

    Your idea that they bend the lore to make Undead Holy Paladins, however, was not good.
    This.

    With the current lore we have, Undead wielding the Light need an incredible amount of faith, morality, willpower, whatever, to do it without going insane from the pain. It's even worse for Paladins because they're literal beacons, vessel for the Light. As much as it'd hurt Priests (who barely use it as is) or those healed by it (very rare as well), it'd be ten times worse for an Undead Paladin, since instead of channeling it, it's with them all the time.

    Spontaneously having a ton of dead paladins brought back to life and wielding the Light isn't plausible. If it could have been done, why hasn't it been done before now? The player character I could maybe see. But a ton of NPCs and everything? Where have they been all this time?

    Making them "Shadow Paladins" would fit better, especially with the thematic we have with the Forsaken Priests (and Tauren "Sun Druids," as well, among others). It makes them different from the mind controlled/insane Scarlets and everyone, and still fits. The problem then is making them fit with the gameplay.

    The problem with the idea that was proposed prior is that it's gone against the prior lore and information we have. I'd even say it'd be difficult for Tirion and Uther, maybe even Turalyon, to retain their Light-given powers after death and reanimation. And they're the most powerful Paladins WoW has to offer. Having a ton of NPCs and PCs pop up with the willpower to defy everything breaks the lore. "Shadow" Paladins fits a bit better, if done correctly, instead of the lore-bending idea, proposed earlier.

  19. #179
    Well if a forsaken can be a death knight, meaning that it has been undead twice, then I guess an undead paladin is possible

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    We've been saying it could work as Shadow Paladins this whole time. As a matter of fact, I agreed that if the spells were made to be shadow spells, only dealing Holy damage to make sure balance wasn't affected, it would make no difference and I'd wholy accept them.

    Your idea that they bend the lore to make Undead Holy Paladins, however, was not good.
    I never said to make them undead Holy paladins... or really to bend the light. My point was, call them whatever you want to call them to make yourselves feel better about allowing them lore-wise, but for the purpose of gameplay mechanics, for all intents and purposes, they would be just as much holy as holy undead priest. Lore? No. Mechanics? Yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    Making them "Shadow Paladins" would fit better, especially with the thematic we have with the Forsaken Priests (and Tauren "Sun Druids," as well, among others). It makes them different from the mind controlled/insane Scarlets and everyone, and still fits. The problem then is making them fit with the gameplay.
    This is all I've been saying Find a way to write the lore to make them plausible. I don't care if you wrap them in foil and call them a burrito, I know they are not a real burrito, but the foil and the writing on the foil makes it convincing.

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