Which race is the oldest?

[Yarathir]

And I think it's fair to assume, at this point, that like some types of demons, and elementals, they have their own plane of existence where they come into being. Like Ragnaros had the Elemental Plane. This is probably also their weakness, in the end.



This is currently their strength. They have no real mortal ties to our plane. Because of that, we could destroy their bodies/husks ten times over and they would still be able to return.



Though.. maybe this realm is what Ny'alotha truly is? The realm where only 'mad things dwell', only Old Gods and Old God creatures. Perhaps when we get our N'Zoth expansion, we strike at the heart of the beast, inside of Ny'alotha itself?

[Aquamonkey]

Yes, I get that the Old Gods arrived, that does not mean they arrived after the Titans though. I mean, for a start, parasitic and symbiotic have pretty much opposite meanings, so what were they really?

http://wowpedia.org/The_Old_Gods_and...ing_of_Azeroth

Are we to assume the author of the book (an ingame book) was wrong.

We can't know if we have so many opposing sources.

That lore was written for WC3, 6 years before WotLK when Tribunal dialogue was written.

[Zarc]

At first I wasn't going to vote, because all this vote shows is what people believe to be the oldest race, but the question is stated as it asking for facts, not opinions. But I voted my belief anyhow, and thus put my vote on the Draenei, as it seems probable that they are the most ancient race. Certainly if we speak of races native to Azeroth the answer would be the Trolls.

[Rixis]

History is written by the winners. Tribunal could be talking out of its arse. Without confirmation we can't just dismiss it because "it's older than some other snippet we've read".

[Deleted]

Draenei i believe, or troll..
Also, what about the worgen?(Not the cursed humans ofc) I believe i heard they came from another planet, by hand of archmage arugal, so they might be pretty ancient too.

[Aquamonkey]

History is written by the winners. Tribunal could be talking out of its arse. Without confirmation we can't just dismiss it because "it's older than some other snippet we've read".

WC3 says the Titans came to Azeroth on accident. Tribunal says the Titans came specifically to cleanse the infection. CDevs say "the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods."

The Tribunal's account is backed up by recent Blue posts. The WC3 stuff is not.

[Rixis]

Just because the old gods infected Azeroth, doesn't mean it's the first thing they did, like they hopped onto this plane and thought, ooooh, planet to suck lovely goodness from. It could well be that before the Titans started work on it, there was no need for the Old Gods to create a symbiotic (or parasitic) relationship with the planet.

All we know is the titans came and the old gods were already here, if we line it up with the tribunal, then all we know is the titans came, for what is their second visit, and the old gods were here. We do not have confirmation either way that the old gods were or were not here when the titans first arrived, and the closest we have to that is older lore.

We cannot build facts on what little information we have, we each shall interpret things our own ways.

[Aquamonkey]

Just because the old gods infected Azeroth, doesn't mean it's the first thing they did, like they hopped onto this plane and thought, ooooh, planet to suck lovely goodness from. It could well be that before the Titans started work on it, there was no need for the Old Gods to create a symbiotic (or parasitic) relationship with the planet.

All we know is the titans came and the old gods were already here, if we line it up with the tribunal, then all we know is the titans came, for what is their second visit, and the old gods were here. We do not have confirmation either way that the old gods were or were not here when the titans first arrived, and the closest we have to that is older lore.

We cannot build facts on what little information we have, we each shall interpret things our own ways.

So you're suggesting that the Old Gods were just chilling on Azeroth not doing anything before the Titans? No chaos. No mayhem. Nothing. The planet was so completely uneventful even with the Old Gods on it, that the Titans came, set up their earthen, started their terraforming, and left without a single worry. Only for the Old Gods to finally jump into action and infect the Titan stuff after they left?

[Rixis]

Or the old gods were fighting each other.

What I'm actually suggesting is we do not know and cannot twist shit to suit our own ends.

[ravenmoon]

i'm not sure it's sensible to give an opinion poll on something that is verifiable fact.

A lore guru can tell which is the oldest race. However, bear in mind, blizzard keeps changing this.

First it was Elves, then Night Elves, then they changed the lore. It became Draenei, then trolls were retconned to be the predecessors of WoW that go as far back to before the titans massive change.

In truth the answer should be Titans... but I assume they meant playable race.

[Aquamonkey]

Or the old gods were fighting each other.

Something the Titans would have noticed before plopping their constructs on the planet to start terraforming.

What I'm actually suggesting is we do not know and cannot twist shit to suit our own ends.

I'm downright dismissing old lore because it is completely contradicted by newer lore that places earthen on Azeroth before the Old Gods arrived.

[Rixis]

It doesn't though, it places the Earthen on Azeroth before they were afflicted with the Curse of Flesh, obviously, as they couldn't be afflicted with it before existing.

Titans make earthen from a blend of Azeroths stone core > Earthen afflicted with curse of flesh, become troggs and dwarfs > Curse of flesh was discovered by the Titans > Titans worked on a way to prevent curse of flesh from afflicting future models of earthen > came and had big fight with old gods

We do not know if the old gods were here before the titans or not, we can make assumptions, as you seem to be doing at every turn, but we simply do not know, all we know is that it took the old gods affecting the earthen to alert the titans to their presence.

http://wowpedia.org/Lore_Keeper_of_Norgannon

Also gives a little background into it.

[Aquamonkey]

It doesn't though, it places the Earthen on Azeroth before they were afflicted with the Curse of Flesh, obviously, as they couldn't be afflicted with it before existing.

Titans make earthen from a blend of Azeroths stone core > Earthen afflicted with curse of flesh, become troggs and dwarfs > Curse of flesh was discovered by the Titans > Titans worked on a way to prevent curse of flesh from afflicting future models of earthen > came and had big fight with old gods

We do not know if the old gods were here before the titans or not, we can make assumptions, as you seem to be doing at every turn, but we simply do not know, all we know is that it took the old gods affecting the earthen to alert the titans to their presence.

http://wowpedia.org/Lore_Keeper_of_Norgannon

Also gives a little background into it.

Which directly contradicts the events in the WC3 lore where the Titans were made aware of the Old Gods' presence on their initial survey of the planet before ever starting their terraforming:
Along their journey they happened upon a small world that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth. As the Titans made their way across the primordial landscape, they encountered a number of hostile elemental beings. These elementals, who worshipped a race of unfathomably evil beings known only as the Old Gods, vowed to drive the Titans back and keep their world inviolate from the invaders' metallic touch.

[Gozzu]

I'm not sure if that's necessary because they are different. Just look at a lot of Draenei art, even from official Blizzard artists. Draenei obviously aren't completely as they should be.

Completely agree. I think they should be more along the lines of the concept art, and with any luck we'll get that with new models.

- - - Updated - - -

Which directly contradicts the events in the WC3 lore where the Titans were made aware of the Old Gods' presence on their initial survey of the planet before ever starting their terraforming:
Along their journey they happened upon a small world that its inhabitants would later name Azeroth. As the Titans made their way across the primordial landscape, they encountered a number of hostile elemental beings. These elementals, who worshipped a race of unfathomably evil beings known only as the Old Gods, vowed to drive the Titans back and keep their world inviolate from the invaders' metallic touch.

You, my dear sir, are completely impossible to discuss with, so i'll retire now. You are just way too stuck in your own little theory, which has the same amount of proof as any other theory, and therefore it is a worthless discussion.

[Deleted]

To those stating that Elves evolved from Trolls:

Do you have hard evidence for this? I haven't looked into it for a couple of expansions now, but at the time of TBC this was unconfirmed. Trolls believed that Elves evolved from them, but Elves believed otherwise, and that the trolls only said this to compensate for the way the elves were kicking their asses to near-extinction.

[Aquamonkey]

The closest reconciliation the different sources has gaping holes: The Titans stumbled across Azeroth, then fought and imprisoned the Old Gods beneath the surface of the world (Tribunal says containment happened after Curse of Flesh). Then they seeded the planet with their constructs and set up the terraforming before leaving (WC3 lore says the Titans remained until the terraforming was complete). As the Earthen were doing their job deep underground, near to where the Old Gods were imprisoned, they became infected by the Curse of Flesh. The Titans came back to try to destroy the Old Gods completely, but found out this would be bad for Azeroth (for some reason they didn't discover this when they killed Y'Shaarj during the war). They strengthened the prisons, made new constructs, set up the Aspects, and left again.

[Rixis]

That snippet of text says the titans were aware of the elementals, doesn't indicate that they were aware that the elementals worshipped the old gods, or that the titans even knew the old gods existed.

[Aquamonkey]

To those stating that Elves evolved from Trolls:

Do you have hard evidence for this? I haven't looked into it for a couple of expansions now, but at the time of TBC this was unconfirmed. Trolls believed that Elves evolved from them, but Elves believed otherwise, and that the trolls only said this to compensate for the way the elves were kicking their asses to near-extinction.

WoW Magazine: Issue 5 confirmed it.

[Rixis]

To those stating that Elves evolved from Trolls:

Do you have hard evidence for this? I haven't looked into it for a couple of expansions now, but at the time of TBC this was unconfirmed. Trolls believed that Elves evolved from them, but Elves believed otherwise, and that the trolls only said this to compensate for the way the elves were kicking their asses to near-extinction.

A few pages back, it was revealed in the Warcraft magazine, issue 5.

[Deleted]

WoW Magazine: Issue 5 confirmed it.

Fair enough, thanks. Will have to find a copy =)