Lets be honest, WoW's in its current state is...

[leelad]

Not reading through 11 pages of arguments and counter arguments but i'd say (and i'm convinced that i am correct) that it's because you're nearly 10 years older and mentally and socially you're not in the same place you where all that time ago.

I know i'm not. I have 2 kids and am 31 in a few days. I still get my kicks playing a month at a time and I can't praise the LFR feature enough for allowing me to still raid when it suits me and in small chunks and not have a group of other people depend on me to log at a certain time.

Yeah my gear isn't amazing but an adult mind would accept that the game will likely grow and the gear I currently wear will be replaced by questing greens before long.

[LeperHerring]

Do you want to know my TBC path? Ding 70 > few heroics > Karazhan > Black Temple > Top DPS > SWP.

Everyone posting on these forums is always "Top DPS". And what you described there is either getting carried or playing after the attunement removal, i.e., when Blizzard changed the model away from linear to their current failing model.

[Henno]

The biggest Problem in this thread is: The OP trys to make his statement believable. And people actually believe in this bullshit.

[Orcindauh]

Funnily enough I am aware of that. And I tried it. And it doesn't work and it's not enjoyable.

Many of the hardcore raiders today who have been raiding since the start disagree and still find it enjoyable.

I cleared almost all heroics from WotLK to Cata when I was playing.

Link me the armory of the toon you cleared every heroic raid from wrath- cata while they were current. Because I'm just going to take a wild guess and say you've only cleared LFR and based your opinion off of that.

Complaining just to complain? Why would I do that? I'm not playing the game, I'm just explaining why I (along with most of my friends) left the game.

You're bitching just to complain. You say "this game has no more progression raiding" <--- yeah okay, someone obviously has never cleared a heroic raid while it was current.

They made the progression linear. Removing them removed that linearity, meaning that you no longer had to clear end bosses. The immediate effect was that most guilds that hadn't killed Vashj and Kael by that point just skipped them entirely, and missed out on the two best fights in TBC.

Vashj? Best fight in TBC? Not even close lol. If they wanted to experience those fights, they would do so. You're just looking for ways to force players to do what you want them to do. The fights were old content, doing old content while it is old will never be as rewarding and satisfying as doing them when it was current.

[Kanariya]

As expected, the Blizz-can-do-no-wrong fanboys are in full force here.

[Deleted]

the reason for wow's downfall from previous expansions before cata is the fact that wow is gettingm ore console gamers on it and if they ccant 1 shot something or do something they bitch on the forums and ask blizz to fix it i mean look at how many times LFR bosses have been nerfed and LFR isnt even hard

[Marema]

No. How many time do I need to explain the difference between heroic raiding and TBC raiding? Seriously, try reading and spend a few minutes trying to comprehend what you've read instead of trolling.

Pretty sure you're the one that is trolling now. TBC raiding was hard. Heroic raiding is hard. The only difference is the name it is given. You're too hung up on the words 'normal' and 'heroic'.

While you and your friends are off playing candycrush me and my friends are having a good time and very glad that the BC days are over.

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Everyone posting on these forums is always "Top DPS". And what you described there is either getting carried or playing after the attunement removal, i.e., when Blizzard changed the model away from linear to their current failing model.

Just like everybody on this forum leads 25 man hardmodes until 'Blizzard' does something to screw it up.

[Pippo89]

They need to stop such huge raids, better split up those number of bosss in different raids, not wings and much less linear!

I'm playing since Classic, and yes I also admired Ulduar, but come on Throne hat 13 non-linear bosses on heroic and after that we get another non-linear 14 boss-raid. WTF???

The only way to choose boss order in this gigantic raid is: Siegecrafter or Spoils. That's so lame. Every week the same "shit" in the same order.
Ulduar just did it damn right! Blizzard said they'll make another like Ulduar and then they released Throne. Good joke blizzard...
Ulduar had a great environment, good fights, hardmodes, it had optional bosses and a questline/hardmode-only boss.
Even the teleporter system felt more logic, because you at least had to choose where to get teleported. T
he new teleport system in ToT and now SoO just does not contribute to a good atmosphere imo... But that's not as important as the other things.

Throne heroic: 13 bosses, 100% non-linear
Siege of Orgrimmar heroic: 14 bosses, 90% non-linear

The raids as a whole were not bad, I'm not saying that. But I don't understand why two big raids are released with almost no way to choose boss order.

As someone said, 1 raid with 4 difficulties is just lame after a while.
The first three raids were cool. Small, different themes and with delayed releases, yet ilvls not too far away from each other.
They were non-linear too, yes. But at least you could choose which raid to enter!

Vale of Eternal Sorrow could've been an extra raid, with the bosses slighty more tuned on Normal, especially the Sha of Pride. He's just too damn weak on Normal. Heck, I would've been happy if it's Terrace 2.0 (4 bosses, and they're easier than the other content - at least on Normal :P).

After that, the real Siege of Orgrimmar raid could have started. But with more non-linear bosses like Siegecrafter or Spoils.. Galakras or Juggernaut first? Why not?

I'm just a huge fan of alternation. I hate doing the same order over and over again. Especially within those huge raids.

[Orcindauh]

I was running a heroic raiding guild. It died, just like every other 25 man guild on my realm due to Blizzard idiotic "hey let's give the same rewards for half the effort" raid model in Cata. Heroic raiding does not give the same progression experience as TBC raiding did. It's challenging, sure, but it's not linear progression and just feels like a boring grind.

Yeah, I'm just going to take a shot out of the can and say you never raiding heroics and if you did, you killed the first few bosses after the next tier had already came out and based your opinion off of that.

[LeperHerring]

Pretty sure you're the one that is trolling now. TBC raiding was hard. Heroic raiding is hard. The only difference is the name it is given. You're too hung up on the words 'normal' and 'heroic'.

Are you trolling? I have made ZERO complaints about difficulty. I even explicitly said the difficulty was comparable. The whole argument I'm making over and over is about linear progression. How can you possibly fail this badly at reading comprehension?

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Yeah, I'm just going to take a shot out of the can and say you never raiding heroics and if you did, you killed the first few bosses after the next tier had already came out and based your opinion off of that.

And you would be completely wrong. I guess it's pointless to argue with you further if you're basing your arguments on incorrect assumptions.

[Deleted]

I think the game is better than ever. You're not expected to play for six hours per day to keep up anymore. You can just run a couple of dungeons and spend two or three nights raiding, without feeling like you're missing out on half the content because you didn't spend 18 hours grinding that reputation for that enchant.

Also, in case you've forgotten it, vanilla was a buggy unbalanced mess. No point in bringing more than one of some classes to raids, some specs and races were ludicrously overpowered in PvP, and most specs utterly useless in the endgame, but that's fine because you're stuck looting and can't do anything anyway. Oh, and you can't get to the raid instance anyway because the flightpath doesn't launch and you get a super fast ground mount that you can't dismount from instead, until you touch something and the game crashes. At least that saves you the trouble of spending fifteen minutes flying from Undercity to Badlands, unable go AFK as you had to click again for each stretch since the flight masters weren't connected yet.

Your first paragraph is exactly what I tried to address. Sure, you can play for 2 hours a day. Fine. But what do you do in the end? Nothing cause you drained it already by just playing those measly 2 hours a day instead of splitting those 16 hours to 2 hour chunks and thus having a longer gameplay experience.

As for the balance. I never stated that vanilla was in any way perfectly balanced. The game still isin't. Doesn't mean that made the game worse back then.

few things

1) Questing.

If you wanted to see how bad questing used to be compared to now....go to outland. nuff said. Maybe it is not difficult as it used to be and quicker...but we also have almost a full set of BoA's and 25 more levels above what you used to be in vanila. Also questing SEEMED longer because you had a "wtf am I supposed to do now?" and go read on sites where now you are pointed in general area. Honestly if you take off all BoA's and bother to READ the quest text the story has gotten a hell of a lot better and since re-vamp in Cataclysm there are few quests that are very memorable (Questgiver quest and The day Deathwing came)...I don't remember very memorable quests in vanila except AQ stuff. Vanila was an endless grind fest. Think Shao Hao rep on Timeless island...but for everything.

2) Dungeons.

Yes they were harder and longer but again the difficulty was due to fact we had no BoA's to speak of. Compare the Damage/Healing output to a toon with and without and Dungeons just got a lot harder and longer. Length of time was also because you sat in trade "LFM for RFK need tank and heals" for 2h then had to fly/run there to summon have someone go afk/DC mid instance hearth to trade and repeat the process for 5h till you get the blue ring to replace the copper one you bought from ah/crafted it after 20min of farming ores.

CM were designed to give you a challenge. If you friends/guilds don't want that there is OQ and Openraid. Regular LFG is a break in questing and lore bits. Not meant to pose a level of difficulty

I agree that there should be a level of difficulty that you can scale if you are doing it with friends (kind of like Monster Power in D3) that could give more VP/JP more loot etc that is not just a timed run of CM but time will tell if we see something like that.

3)Personally I prefer hitting 90 and getting a set of epics that would allow me to run current content of LFR (a system like the gear you get from Timeless Island)

If I want my alt to raid I don't want to waste time running previous tiers to catch up to LFR of current content to run that for weeks to get gear so i can be of use in my alt runs on normal. It goes back to the point of vanila being a grindf est and artificial gateways in BC raiding. No I don't want my fresh 90 to take a month to even attempt current shit. Not everyone wants to/capable of getting carried in normals to gear me out (unless they desperately need it) I think catch up system like Timeless Island is a godsend for alts.

4) Personally I love what the game has become and I will continue to play untill I stop having fun. Before things seemed harder due to the time you had to put in not because it was actually required skill.

This game has been out for 8 years....it is only natural that some people get tired of playing the same game for that long and there is only so much that can be done to keep people interested in it. WoW isn't dying...some people's interest in it is...and that is fine. Play other games that make you happy and where you have fun. After all that is what games are about. There is no point in trying to get wow to change with "back in my day" stuff because it will continue to evolve whether you like it or not. Back in my day I had a 128 MB hard drive and saved my Word Docs on a 3.5inch floppy disk. Fact that I had to wait for my PC to display "It is now safe to turn off your PC" did not make it a better PC than what I am using atm. Things change , people grow up and move on. If you are not having fun OP look for something where you would

The game is not perfect but it is sure as hell a lot better than it ever was...by a mile and for a lot of people. If you are not one of them then the problem is your perception and not the game itself. I'm not saying your opinion is not valid ...just different from others who enjoy this game.

My suggestion is to take a break, play something else. We'll leave a light on for you if you decide to come back. I"m having fun in WoW and will stick with it untill I won't be

That is my $0.02

Cheers

1. Leveling in TBC also took the linearity, although not as insane as Pandaria. I didn't say it was amazing either. I did and didn't use BoA's on different character while leveling. Doesn't chage much, still mind numbing regardless of what you use.

2. Searching for people wasn't necessarily a horrible thing. Tedious for some, but it provided you with those extra minutes of something to do other than quest.
And todays dungeons with BoA or without is still a joke, sorry.

3. Sure, that's fine. I can see why some people like it the way it is currently. I'm just discussing the long terms prospects of such a progression.

4. That's fine, and I completely respect that. You might still enjoy the game and it's understandable. The game is still the best MMO there and still has interesting parts.

And you have to grind LFR unless you just get unbelievable lucky on drops. Your argument still stands flawed. You don't even have to run LFR, you can grind VP and JP if you wanted and go directly to flex or something.

There's plenty of grinding still here in the game, you're just looking for small pieces to bitch and complain about.

I wouldn't call logging in 2 hours per reset to do LFR is exactly grindy or even a gameplay experience at that.
Yes, I don't have to run LFR I can just do dungeons(see the mind numbing part). But it'll still feel incomplete, because while I'm doing these dungeons, mindlessly aoe'ing packs and killing these easy bosses, I can see other people just get free gear from timeless isle/lfr. That kills the progression aspect.

Sorry, I don't believe in your biased "honesty". I believe in facts and figures.

A game that has 8 million subscribers cannot "honestly" be horrible. what's "horrible" is its playerbase and fanbase.

It's my opinion. Although there are facts. Numbers, figures, other posts supporting such claims.

For some strange reason, you fail to catch the point of the post. He complained that making the game generally easier from BC onward is what made subs go down. But that is where he was wrong since wrath started to make the game easier by making raids more accessible for "casuals", making BoAs to make leveling easier etc etc which in this time of the game where it had more subs than in BC so "making the game easier" is not a valid reason for the sub decrease. Although the difficulty of high end raiding (heroic raiding) have not really changed since BC. The age of the game is the only valid reason for the sub decrease.

I'm really having a hard time understanding the point you're trying to get across. But if I had a guess, I'd just say you were bitching and complaining about nothing really.

No, you didn't catch my post. I didn't complain about the difficulty of anything apart from dungeon and leveling. My biggest complaint though, was the removal of real progression.
And the game grew all the way from vanilla -> TBC -> end of wrath. It's not making the game more accesible that made it grow if it was already growing in TBC and vanilla now is it.

There never has been in WoW, the end game of PVE is not dungeons, it is raiding. FACT

Raiding has always been about grinding, Hence gear treadmill, the only thing that is changed is that there is more options now. If LFR is too easy move to flex if flex is too easy move to norm, if norm is too easy move to HC. FACT

Dungeons weren't endgame, never was stated otherwise. They were the KEY into endgame. Served a purpose, and a good one at that. Now they're more or less useless.

I already addressed the LFR -> Flex - > Normal - > Heroic in the OP, and why it can be tedious.

So you want everyone to run MSV, HoF, ToES AND ToT before they can even enter SoO? Yeeeeeeeeeeeah no.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. Getting gear(progressing) all the way up to current tier. Which keeps you going, and keeps the game interesting.

^^ This

Seriously OP. Matchbox cars are not fail because you got bored with them by the time you were 7. Legos are not fail because you got bored with them by the time you were 12... and WoW isn't fail because you got bored with it after 9 years.

Comparing Legos and matchbox car to WoW is a pretty terrible comparison. People play games at any age, hell, some even play it in their 60's. You don't really find people in their 60's playing Legos unless it's with their children or so.

Only because you write "FACT" it istn a fact... you should better read a book instead of playing WoW...

I didn't write facts.

[Itisamuh]

Heroic raiding. If you haven't got 14/14HC you can't talk shit about how difficult it is. FACT



There never has been in WoW, the end game of PVE is not dungeons, it is raiding. FACT



Raiding has always been about grinding, Hence gear treadmill, the only thing that is changed is that there is more options now. If LFR is too easy move to flex if flex is too easy move to norm, if norm is too easy move to HC. FACT



Apples ≠ Oranges. FACT

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But if you also raided from the start to finish of an expansion then it wouldn't matter if that was the case.

You seem to keep getting caught up on what other people are doing to play the game when you should be worried about yourself.

Well said on all counts. And yeah, that last line seems to be the big issue raid finder haters have. Heaven forbid others have fun.

[Orcindauh]

you would be completely wrong. I guess it's pointless to argue with you further if you're basing your arguments on incorrect assumptions.

Why don't you go ahead and link us your armory, sport?

Are you trolling? I have made ZERO complaints about difficulty. I even explicitly said the difficulty was comparable. The whole argument I'm making over and over is about linear progression. How can you possibly fail this badly at reading comprehension?

"BC raiding was more enjoyable because you had to clear the last tier before you did the next tier"

I do not see how that makes a raid more enjoyable.

[dgrimm121]

I agree with you on almost everything.

How do we fix this? Honestly at this point, it's hard to say if we can fix this. Look at Cata's heroics for instance. They were probably the closest you can get to vanilla/tbc dungeons, and what happened? QQ shitstorm everywhere. The game has has just changed too much to back to where we started. So the only thing I deem possible - a vanilla server. Look at it as more of a test, to see which way the game is actually better off and what do people enjoy more.

I have an Idea about how to fix it. It's gonna take some bravery.
First off, it can't be a hard cut, it has to be relatively gradual.
Step 1: make level 91 mobs a little tough. We're talking get you to half health if you're wearing greens tough.
Step 2: Make level 93+ mobs real tough. I'm talking about giving them abilities that stack. Say you have three enemies in a pack. Two of them debuff you against poison damage and the third one(with extra health so u dont just burn it down) has heavy poison damage, non-interruptable. so You have to use cc while questing. and taking on more than 2 mobs at a time is really tough. 4+ is almost assured suicide. This forces players to re-learn how to play. And we do it gradually, so its not off-putting.
Step 3: Have end-game dungeons and heroic dungeons. Make end game dungeons as hard as heroics were in wotlk. Make heroics legitimately challenging for people in all blues from normal max level dungeons. Make the achievements for siad dungeons grant you titles and sparkle ponies and only be doable in full epic raiding gear. Dungeons are the core of the Wow experience for most players. Hard, challenging, engaging dungeons are what they want. Make some harder than others, of course, and make those drop weapons.
Step 4: Make epics rarer. You get to max level Cool. Start working on your first set of blues. Have non-set pieces dropped from every boss in dungeons. Have set pieces be 4 ilevels higher and dropped from end bosses of dungeons. Then have a shared rep that you can grind from any dungeon. Have that reward heroic level blues. Have the heroic drop heroic blues, and the end bosses drop an item that you can turn in 8-10 or so of + like 100 of trade resource(metal,herbs,cloth, etc) for an epic piece or for sparkle pony rewards. This adds a diverse set of rewards to dungeons and heroic dungeons and ensure that raiders will run heroics occasionally and help out the inexperienced players.
Step 5: raiding. The first boss should be tuned to killable after a few hours if your team is in full heroic blues. Main issue should be dodging mechanics or a kill order to figure out, possibly a consumable found by clearing trash a little out of the way debuffs the boss slightly. Second boss should be a dps check of some sort. It shouldn't be terribly difficult. Doable in full heroic gear, but only barely. all other bosses should be tuned to where the average raiders get to progress at about a boss a week if they don't make silly mistakes, and you get some epics from the previous bosses + heroic rewards. This will lead to much slower progression, yes. But also, a feeling of accomplishment. Also, bosses should not be loot pinatas. Two items drop for 10 man, and 5-6 from 25 man. But make the bosses also drop a collectible item. After Bracers buyable for 4, shoulders, helm chest for 10, weapon for 12, and all else for 8 or so. And make these 4 ilevels below dropable gear.
Step 6: Get rid of LFR. It's only redeemable feature was making it super easy to see the content so you could play wow without any investment,s ee the bosses, and log out till next patch. It's a suicide pill for your game. Ax it.
Step 7: Timey wimey fluctuations mean you cannot bring your flying mounts with you into the past and use them in draenor. You will be rinding ground based steeds, and will no longer be able to ignore content on the ground, which is like half of the game. The world is more immersive and fun when you actually have to traverse it and explore it.
Step 8: Give 5 man world bosses that drop a mcguffin that is needed by raiders. perhaps an item that is required to make end game crafting gear.
Step 9: make side bosses in raids. Make them drop plans for crafting. Make these dropped plans better than 90% of what you can get in the raid. Make it take items dropped from all the bosses( if there's 8 raid bosses, make it take 8 raid items) make it take like 5 world boss crafting items, and make it take like 60+ gatherable crafting mats. Make it like a belt or boots or something. And make it BOE.
Step 10: Take away all the dang self healing in pvp. Make non healers's heals heal for less in combat. Give stamina like twice the budget you ever gave it before. This makes fights longer for dps classes, and give the chance for skill to matter more. Also on healing. Make healers heal for about the same as a normal player can dps. If they are spamming heals sitting still, a few stuns and a mortal strike style debuff should be dead after about 30 secs. Also, we have dual spec. healers do not need to be able to dps. Arenas: add in more buffs. Put them in areas you don't normall go. Have them do like 20% less damage taken, or 20% more damage done. Adds an element of strategy. Do I save my cc for when the buff spawns, or blow it now and try to get a kill?

These alone would make the game badass. perhaps the best expansion yet. Oh, and bring back some of them server wide pve things. Like AQ or Isle of quel'danas. Something we all work towards and different servers complete at different speeds.

[Marema]

Are you trolling? I have made ZERO complaints about difficulty. I even explicitly said the difficulty was comparable. The whole argument I'm making over and over is about linear progression. How can you possibly fail this badly at reading comprehension?

You complained about the multiple raid difficulties. You have a short memory.

[Deleted]

How do we fix this? Honestly at this point, it's hard to say if we can fix this. Look at Cata's heroics for instance. They were probably the closest you can get to vanilla/tbc dungeons, and what happened? QQ shitstorm everywhere. The game has has just changed too much to back to where we started. So the only thing I deem possible - a vanilla server. Look at it as more of a test, to see which way the game is actually better off and what do people enjoy more.

Do you really want to go back to vanilla? Offcourse vanilla felt epic cause when you never ever thouched an mmo and started your first char i took you forever to level to 60 and thinking back you find was the best experience ever compared to now. But think about the other side of the medal, travel 45-60 minutes for just 5% experience. Dying 20 minutes on one quest, cause you didnt used the correct spells or your gear isnt high enough to just to complete that one quest. Hitting level 40 and realizing you dont have enough gold to buy your mount.

Have a full actionbar filled with lesser healing rank 1 to 6 and greater healing from rank 1 to 6 and during a raid/dungeon you had to determe what spell should i use to not get oom in your current gear. Starting a 40 man raid took you one hour to form and get all 40 people to the instance fully buffed with food etc... and realizing 4 of them didnt have correct gear with them and need to go back to town or change their talents or the 1 person that just pulled whatever he wanted. 25 people hardly know the tactics of the fight.

Im not saying vanilla was complete shit! The social aspect of the game was so good i want it back. Starting a dungeon with 5-10 other random people and end up with adding 2 to your friendlist because you felt they were good and so you formed a personal friendlist with people you liked and where you can count on to do dungeons and raids to have the best possible experience. But people tend to forget from where we come and how the game evolved in a good or bad way.

P.S: fastest character to level from 1-60 took roughly 5 days. If you play 2 hours a day it would take you 60 actuall days to reach level 60

[Orcindauh]

I wouldn't call logging in 2 hours per reset to do LFR is exactly grindy or even a gameplay experience at that.
Yes, I don't have to run LFR I can just do dungeons(see the mind numbing part). But it'll still feel incomplete, because while I'm doing these dungeons, mindlessly aoe'ing packs and killing these easy bosses, I can see other people just get free gear from timeless isle/lfr. That kills the progression aspect.

2 hours a week on LFR? Yeah okay. Reason I do not do LFR because clearing all 4 wings of SoO takes way longer than it does the clear it on normal.

If you are a fresh 90 and want to get into heroic raiding, you have a shitton of grinding to do.
1#must grind all wings of LFR from every tier for legendary cloak for 2-3 month which will take you much much longer than 2 hours per week.
2#Must grind all wings of flex for gear upgrades every week.
3#Spend countless hours on timeless isle grinding for epics.
4#Try to find normal pugs every week and any pieces you do not get, you must grind flex and LFR.
5# Spend a few hours grinding Black Prince rep for legendary.
6# Spending an hour or 2 doing all the Isle of Thunder solo scenarios for legendary.
#7 repeat for any alts you want to gear up.

If you want any nice titles/mounts/achievements then you have even more grinding to do.

[dgrimm121]

A lot fo the problems with vanilla were with the inexperience of the playerbase back then.The playerbase has matured substantially since then. Having a vanilla or bc style expansion would probably be amazing. In order to have social interaction, you have to have a need for it. That means you will lose some convenience. As it stands, they have removed the other players from the game and put you on training wheels.

[Deleted]

Amazing, awesome, are those the words you are looking for?

1. If the thread is beating a dead horse, maybe you shouldn't start it or post this in an already existing thread.
2. "Possible fixes"? Don't fix it if it isn't broken.

Group quests were also known as "invite your high level friend and get free awesome gear", good thing they got rid of that.

Can I ask you what spec you were playing if you didn't have life-tap on your bars?
Because my heirloom-geared Demonology alt goes out of mana quickly while leveling.

All I see is one big rant about linearity and the removal of group-quests. What does that have to do with difficulty?
And do you call it difficult because you have to find a class trainer because your abilities are 10 levels behind the zone you are running?
If you really want to get into that "Classic feeling", you could just ask a random thug to break your mouse-arm. That's the same 'Classic feeling'.

"Nowadays, you can realistically, after you hit max level just go to the AH, buy a couple of pieces to raise your iLvl , go do LFR and you're set. Damn."
Really? Are you serious on that?


Your view is really tainted, so don't complain when people call you nostalgic.
Do you want to know my TBC path? Ding 70 > few heroics > Karazhan > Black Temple > Top DPS > SWP.

"You doing LFR means, that you already fought the bosses, saw their mechanics, dialogues, lore in the LFR."
Simple solution: DO NOT DO LFR!
Why are people so blind to that simple solution to ALL of your problems? It's no freaking rocket science!
You don't hit yourself on the head and then complain that the hammer hurts, this is exactly the same!

Funny how you said if it isin't broken don't fix it. The way everything worked in vanilla, tbc, wrath was fine and the game was growing. Didn't seem like it needed fixing.

Group quests are what you make of them. Sure, you could invite a higher level to kill the mob for you. You could do the same thing with dungeons. It isin't that though, it's about the leveling experience and choices.

I leveled as a non BoA demo lock, mass pulling everything. And yes, I did not have life tap on my bars the whole way through. The new HP/MP regen is enough to keep you from stopping to think until you have the gear to avoid this problem.

"All I see is one big rant about linearity and the removal of group-quests. What does that have to do with difficulty?". Nothing, it's about dullness.

"Really? Are you serious on that?". Yes I am. Me and many other people have done it.

"Do you want to know my TBC path?". If you ran those heroics at the end of the exp, with overgeared people then yea, that path might be possible. Even then, your described path looks more complex and time consuming than the current model.

"Simple solution: DO NOT DO LFR!". Sure. I can run those overdumbed heroics instead for 20 minutes each. Fine. Won't take much effort nor will it consume much time, will only have me less geared.

[Deleted]

Very good post, I must say I totally agree. People who whine and say "oh go play something else", why should he? He obviously still love this game for what it once was and hates to see it ruined. Wow has been around for such a long time and people have built a relation to it that they won't give up without a fight. I love the world of Warcraft for what it once was, I love the Warcraft universe and it is my favorite game of all time, I won't give up trying to restore it to its former glory until the last server is shut down.

There is a reason TBC was the most popular expansion, you actually had to play the game back then, you had always had something to look forward to. Now? The only thing there is to look forward to is that someday the game will be as challenging as it was during the golden days.