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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    First, two things about trying to demonize the Alliance for destroying Quel'Thalas:

    1. if you are trying to argue that Arthas was representing the Alliance when he marched up and raised Kel'Thuzad through the Sunwell, killed everyone not Undead in sight, and raised Sylvannas as the Banshee Queen. Then you should walk out this thread right now.

    2. If you are arguing Garithos sending the Blood Elves to their deaths, you have some merit in that argument. But you should also consider that Garithos was a lord of Lordaeron's hierarchy, and thus represented the Alliance as a regent in place of the Absence of authority in the area.

    Ultimately however, Garithos, as Grand Marshal, was the only person representing the Alliance forces at the time, no one in the south knew what became of Lordaeron when he sent the Blood Elves on their suicide mission, Stormwind was not represented in the decisions he made up north, and had they known what that racist bigot was doing they would have recalled him from his line of duty immediately for questioning.

    If Stormwind had known about the conditions in Lordaeron, they would have sent a contingent of troops to help secure territory before the Scourge could regroup effectively. More commanders would have been sent to assess the situation and Garithos would not have been directly in charge of every soldier there.

    Garithos represented the Alliance because he was a political figure in Lordaeron, and being the only person of standing rank in the north only made him a political despot trying to seize power while no one was looking, and being the racist he was, nothing else could have been expected of him when he tried to kill the Blood Elves to secure his authority.
    Really? Basically means you choose to acknowledge the old Alliance only in a way that benefits you. Douchebaggery at it's best! Like it or not Garithos was an appointed leader of that Alliance, by popular choice or by rank, does not matter, the fact is he was ALLIANCE when he condemned the elves to death with the rest of the same Alliance carrying out his orders.

    Sylvanas killing his hypocrite ass was "justice" of a sort for the Belfs.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    So, the old Horde and the new Horde are two different things. Fine.

    The old Alliance is still pretty much the same Alliance but without Lordaeron.

    So why the fuck would Alleria join the Alliance when they were the ones that drove her people into the Horde in the first place? Cause if you claim the Alliance is one and the same with the one she was in, in order to "claim" her as an Alliance hero, then be aware that you also agree to the fact that it was the same Alliance that tried to eliminate the Belfs WHILE they were still members of that Alliance and WHILE they were assisting that Alliance. Add that on top of the recent Belf massacre in Dalaran and hello Horde Alleria.
    I'm sure any Alliance commander would've sentenced the Blood elves to death if they witnessed their betrayal by siding with the Naga. The Naga were a threat to the Alliance and still are; Garithos just got something out of their execution. Furthermore, Kael'thas didn't even have to have his nation rejoin the Alliance, an Alliance he already thought was failing. It was his own decision to make himself an underling to Garithos. And a Blood elf abused the neutrality of the Kirin Tor for Garrosh's own evil deeds; the purge wasn't all that unnecessary considering this fact. Adding all of these to the equation, I would assume that Alleria would be Alliance, and not neutral or Horde.

  3. #223
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Really? Basically means you choose to acknowledge the old Alliance only in a way that benefits you. Douchebaggery at it's best! Like it or not Garithos was an appointed leader of that Alliance, by popular choice or by rank, does not matter, the fact is he was ALLIANCE when he condemned the elves to death with the rest of the same Alliance carrying out his orders.

    Sylvanas killing his hypocrite ass was "justice" of a sort for the Belfs.
    Garithos WAS a hypocrite, that's what im trying to fucking tell you. He represented the Alliance because the Alliance thought they could trust him with power, it turned out he was a racist bigot who tried to claim land for himself in any way possible.

    Do you count Garrosh's Actions as a representation of the Horde? when he broke off his ties with his allies and tried to kill them for his own selfish goals? No? Then what difference is there with Garithos? He did the same fucking thing!

    EDIT: Its 2AM here, ill continue this at another time.
    Last edited by Lothaeryn; 2013-11-07 at 07:02 AM.
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  4. #224
    The Lightbringer
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    Blizz could give each their own xpac, gushing with Alliance lore, and Alliance players will find something to whine about.
    You cared enough to post.

  5. #225
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    you do realize that Doomhammer was also responsible for most the crimes the Old Horde is associated with? In that case, Thrall can be held accountable for the Genocide of the Draenei AND the High Elves, as the Horde is a continuation right?

    If you want to go that route, then you damn better well be ready to atone for a fuckton of crimes you now claim responsibility for.
    I'm not claiming responsibility for any of those crimes, the Genocide of the Draenei is on Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden, Doomhammer eradicated the Shadow Council, and was going to kill Gul'dan, however, Gul'dan bargained for his life with the promise of soldiers to counter the Human mages, Doomhammer thought by keeping him on a short leash, he would get what he wanted and Gul'dan would remain powerless, that leash wasn't short enough apparently...

    The High Elves willingly involved themselves with the Alliance in the Second War, the First War was could be called unjustified, the Second War, however, is defendable...Were the Orcs supposed to just wait for the Humans to come back and reclaim Stormwind? Or retreat back to Draenor (The planet that was barely sustaining life, let alone an entire race.) and wait for a potential attack by the Humans? At that point the Shadow Council had manipulated far too much, it was "us or them".

    Or are you talking about Lich King Ner'zhul? After he was intercepted by Kil'jaeden at the end of "Beyond the Dark Portal" Ner'zhul was no longer a member of the Horde, he was temporarily aligned with the Burning Legion and then broke away. Keep in mind by that point Ner'zhul had suffered merciless torture at the hands of Kil'jaeden, but anyway, long story short, that's not our fault.

    Also, I think you mean "Attempted Genocide", and only one of your arguments is half way defendable...

    Either way, the Horde isn't responsible for either of those, blame Gul'dan and the LICH KING.

    If you want to play the blame game though, I blame the Draenei for not giving the Orcs any warning about the Burning Legion, or Kil'jaeden the DECIEVER, they were partly responsible for the Blood Curse....

  6. #226
    1. Mad
    2. It would make for a more interesting story than both going Alliance or neutral.
    3. Mad
    4. Don't care

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    Garithos WAS a hypocrite, that's what im trying to fucking tell you. He represented the Alliance because the Alliance thought they could trust him with power, it turned out he was a racist bigot who tried to claim land for himself in any way possible.

    Do you count Garrosh's Actions as a representation of the Horde? when he broke off his ties with his allies and tried to kill them for his own selfish goals? No? Then what difference is there with Garithos? He did the same fucking thing!

    EDIT: Its 2AM here, ill continue this at another time.

    Same thing? Perhaps. But considering that most of the Horde was fighting Garrosh and none of the Alliance were fighting Garithos, well, that just not makes it the same thing.

    But I like how the Alliance apologists are trying to make it look like Garrithos was not part of "their" Alliance cause he sucked, but Alleria was cause she's cool.

  8. #228
    Warchief Serenais's Avatar
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    To be honest, I am hoping that they will be Alliance heroes, with the Horde getting their own heroes back (Rexxar and Garona would work in that aspect, in my opinion; just as an example). I fully expect Alleria pulling a full 180 (do remember, she hated orcs so much that she risked her own wellbeing to get a chance at slaughtering a few more; so her joining the Horde now, after they basically attempted to pull a Second War all over again, would be rather drastic) and going Horde only, while Turalyon will go neutral, join the Argent Dawn/Crusade and end up largely inactive (inactivity is to be expected, though, the guy is in his late 60s/early 70s). Call me a pessimist, but...
    Yeah. Call me a pessimist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Same thing? Perhaps. But considering that most of the Horde was fighting Garrosh and none of the Alliance were fighting Garithos, well, that just not makes it the same thing.

    But I like how the Alliance apologists are trying to make it look like Garrithos was not part of "their" Alliance cause he sucked, but Alleria was cause she's cool.
    I would like to ask WHAT Alliance should have fought Garithos back there and then. You might recall that Lordaeron was freshly destroyed, and the nearest Alliance power was thus south of Thandol Span, Ironforge - quarter of the continent away. Now, there's no Internet in WoW, and while Garithos could have been checked upon by other Alliance powers at that time, they probably had more important business to take care of, like finding out what hapenned TO Lordaeron in the first place. And even if they did, they would have to send ships and/or troops to stop him. Do take a look at the map of the planet and tell me. How long would it take for medievial technology to travel from Ironforge and/or Stormwind to Southshore? Mind you, it took several MONTHS for ship from Europe to cross Atlantic to America in roughly similar times in reality, so do the calculation and tell me WHO could have stopped Garithos from the genocide attempt right then and there.
    Another thing about Garithos is that there is no proof that he actually WAS given any authority over the area he tried to extert it upon. He was most likely just the highest surviving representative of anything resembling Lordaeron military, unless you wish to state that Garithos was sent from Stormwind to set Lordaeron back to order. That would in turn beg a question WHY would Kael'thas feel subordinate to Garithos then in the first place, since Stormwind wouldn't be able to send large force on such short notice, thus Garithos would be there with just a handful of troops AND thus would render Kael'thas THE supreme Alliance commander in the area simply by the number of force under his command - Garithos could not do much more than provide poisonous advice.

    Alleria, on the other hand, fought the Horde when the Horde was at its darkest, unless you want to tell me that genocide of Stormwind and several other attempted ones (I do recall from "Tides of Darkness" that Orgrim Doomhammer himself wanted to kill EVERYTHING on the world that didn't end up joining the Horde, thus he was well under way in genocide attempts at Ironforge, Quel'thalas and Lordaeron - and that was what he thought was necessary to regain the Horde's HONOR), and now she would be coming back right after the Horde vaporised a city and attempted to seise YET ANOTHER continent. Sounds familiar, does it not?
    I could also remind you that Theramore was the city with larget High Elven population outside Stormwind. That might be YET ANOTHER stinger she might feel against the Horde.

    As for Garrosh's actions and the Horde's accountability, may I remind you WHEN did the other Horde leaders break off in rebelion? It was NOT after Thal'darah grove, not after Theramore, it wasn't even after it was clear that no reasonable peace with the Alliance or even a cease fire (something the Trolls might be interested in, considering that Echo Isles are practically undefended and fully open to a naval invasion), not even after Garrosh tried to have Vol'jin assasinated, they did so when Vol'jin reappeared and told them that Garrosh was up to no good and that he might be a threat to THEM. Attrocities do NOT seem to matter that much in that aspect. I would also like to remind you that both Vol'jin and Baine were present during the Siege of Theramore, personally participating in attack on the city. If they did not realise that after the city was technically navally blockaded (keeping a navy closeby is technically a blockade - you do not evacuate on the open sea if the enemy can pick your transport ships one by one at will) that a civilian slaughter WAS going to happen anyway, then they are clearly unfit for military command.

    So. I'm sorry, but Garrosh DID what he did during the time he was a RECOGNISED Warchief of the Horde and he remained unopposed LONG time after that. Do NOT say that he is something the Horde has nothing to do with.
    Apologies for the rant, but I really do NOT like people twisting history because it suits them. Be it fictional or otherwise.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post

    Point of order: Alleria and Turalyon have no connection to the Alliance of Stormwind either. If you get to count Alliance of Lordaeron as Alliance of Stormwind, we get to count Old Horde as New Horde
    It dont work that way, because Old Horde WAS an Evil Horde driven by warlocks and demons (and later by still raged warriors). Most of old Horde didn't agreed that they were wrong, they refused to accept Thrall as warchief and his shamanistic ways "Oh he don't want to kill everyone and claim Azeroth for himself? Then he is weak and his orcs are traitors!".

    So, orcs created new kingdom led by new warchief with new ideology, and created union with completely new allies and called it "Horde". While there still was Dark Horde and Fel Horde, who claimed them to be the true Horde.

    While Alliance wasn't disbanded, actually if you listen to human intro (old one) there are words "the people of Stormwind remain steadfast in their commitment to the Grand Alliance."

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Same thing? Perhaps. But considering that most of the Horde was fighting Garrosh and none of the Alliance were fighting Garithos, well, that just not makes it the same thing.

    But I like how the Alliance apologists are trying to make it look like Garrithos was not part of "their" Alliance cause he sucked, but Alleria was cause she's cool.
    He WAS part of Alliance and so what?

    1) Garithos was self-appointed leader of his own faction (like Genn in Gilneas right now). It wasn't like he is a Stormwind commander send there.

    2) No one was even aware of his personality nor of situation in Lordaeron, there are no internet or mobile phones in Azeroth.

    3) Even Blood Elves themselves don't blame Alliance, they blame Garithos and Kirin Tor. (In the shadow of the sun) Why should you?
    Last edited by Lins; 2013-11-07 at 08:08 AM.

  10. #230
    Warchief Serenais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    It dont work that way, because Old Horde WAS an Evil Horde driven by warlocks and demons (and later by still raged warriors). Most of old Horde didn't agreed that they were wrong, they refused to accept Thrall as warchief and his shamanistic ways "Oh he don't want to kill everyone and claim Azeroth for himself? Then he is weak and his orcs are traitors!".
    I half tend to agree there. While Thrall's Horde was diametrically different from the one that preceded it, and, in fact, Thrall more or less remade Horde from scratch, he also took the mantle of Warchief directly from Doomhammer, so there is some sense of continuity there. The only responsibility that could be carried through would however have to be tied directly to the office of Warchief - all other Horde "instutions" basically ceased to exist after the Second War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    So, orcs created new kingdom led by new warchief with new ideology, and created union with completely new allies and called it "Horde". While there still was Dark Horde and Fel Horde, who claimed them to be the true Horde.
    I would more call it a chiefdom, since the Horde doesn't look much like a monarchy, but that's nitpicking from my side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    While Alliance wasn't disbanded, actually if you listen to human intro (old one) there are words "the people of Stormwind remain steadfast in their commitment to the Grand Alliance."
    It's not really easy to say whether that is entirely correct. The original Alliance was called "The Alliance of Lordaeron", and was made during the times when Kingdom of Stormwind existed only on paper; on top of that, there is no record in neither Tides of Darkness or Beyond the Dark Portal books that either Anduin Lothar or Varian Wrynn did actually join it; even if Anduin Lothar was the highest Alliance commander during Second War. Also, the Terenas II renounced any claims he could have on the Kingdom of Stormwind and the Tides of Darkness book seemed to imply that he tried to have others follow suit. And it could have commitements to the "Grand Alliance", question is whether that is the "current Alliance", or the original one. Even if it is the second case, it would imply simply that, commitement, not necessarily membership. Especially since in Beyond the Dark Portal, the Kingdom of Stormwind seems fully independent, not being a vassal or at least a partial suzerain of any of the Lordaeron kingdoms, or the Alliance of Lordaeron as a whole. The Alliance definitelly did have troops stationed inside the territory claimed by the Kingdom of Stormwind, I give you that. It doesn't imply membership either, though - we do have many even current RL examples where one nation/power has troops in some other nation's territory without violating said nation's sovereignity and/or integrity.

    EDIT: I fully forgot to write why I actually did pick up the Alliance issue x) Alliance of Lordaeron literally ceased to exist after the Scourge was through with it, at least north of Thandol Span (Ironforge was a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron, if I recall correctly). The current one could be called a legal successor, at the very least, but there couldn't be possibly any responsibility drawn to the events between the destruction of the Alliance of Lordaeron and the re-creation of it by the current one. So, while Garithos was indeed a major case of a racist, bigot and straight out genocidal madman, what he did after he came into control of the what was left in Lordaeron can't be really traced to the current Alliance, unless proven that he did work under the orders of any of the current Alliance nations. Also, claiming that he did gives some credibility to the Alliance's claim to Lordaeron (which, quite frankly, is in my opinion currently moot and even the re-appearance of Calia Menethill would only bring it from "moot" to "controversial), since it would state the Alliance had any sort of authority and/or jurisdiction in the region after the fall of Lordaeron. While it was clearly attempted, it looked more like an attempt to keep some sort of the old Alliance of Lordaeron intact (be it in a twisted form, the one doing the "keeping" being Garithos), instead of trying to connect it to the new (or re-made) Alliance, which did not exist at the time.
    Last edited by Serenais; 2013-11-07 at 08:47 AM.

  11. #231
    The OP is missing an option: that the two of them are the titular Warlords of Draenor, and they are the final bosses. Boom. I'd pay extra money for that expansion.

  12. #232
    Deleted
    Turalyon is more Alliance than Varian himself, and Alleria is pretty much his soul-mate, so it would have to be very well done... and even then I'd be a little dissapointed if any of those came to happen.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    I half tend to agree there. While Thrall's Horde was diametrically different from the one that preceded it, and, in fact, Thrall more or less remade Horde from scratch, he also took the mantle of Warchief directly from Doomhammer, so there is some sense of continuity there. The only responsibility that could be carried through would however have to be tied directly to the office of Warchief - all other Horde "instutions" basically ceased to exist after the Second War.


    I would more call it a chiefdom, since the Horde doesn't look much like a monarchy, but that's nitpicking from my side.


    It's not really easy to say whether that is entirely correct. The original Alliance was called "The Alliance of Lordaeron", and was made during the times when Kingdom of Stormwind existed only on paper; on top of that, there is no record in neither Tides of Darkness or Beyond the Dark Portal books that either Anduin Lothar or Varian Wrynn did actually join it; even if Anduin Lothar was the highest Alliance commander during Second War. Also, the Terenas II renounced any claims he could have on the Kingdom of Stormwind and the Tides of Darkness book seemed to imply that he tried to have others follow suit. And it could have commitements to the "Grand Alliance", question is whether that is the "current Alliance", or the original one. Even if it is the second case, it would imply simply that, commitement, not necessarily membership. Especially since in Beyond the Dark Portal, the Kingdom of Stormwind seems fully independent, not being a vassal or at least a partial suzerain of any of the Lordaeron kingdoms, or the Alliance of Lordaeron as a whole. The Alliance definitelly did have troops stationed inside the territory claimed by the Kingdom of Stormwind, I give you that. It doesn't imply membership either, though - we do have many even current RL examples where one nation/power has troops in some other nation's territory without violating said nation's sovereignity and/or integrity.

    EDIT: I fully forgot to write why I actually did pick up the Alliance issue x) Alliance of Lordaeron literally ceased to exist after the Scourge was through with it, at least north of Thandol Span (Ironforge was a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron, if I recall correctly). The current one could be called a legal successor, at the very least, but there couldn't be possibly any responsibility drawn to the events between the destruction of the Alliance of Lordaeron and the re-creation of it by the current one. So, while Garithos was indeed a major case of a racist, bigot and straight out genocidal madman, what he did after he came into control of the what was left in Lordaeron can't be really traced to the current Alliance, unless proven that he did work under the orders of any of the current Alliance nations. Also, claiming that he did gives some credibility to the Alliance's claim to Lordaeron (which, quite frankly, is in my opinion currently moot and even the re-appearance of Calia Menethill would only bring it from "moot" to "controversial), since it would state the Alliance had any sort of authority and/or jurisdiction in the region after the fall of Lordaeron. While it was clearly attempted, it looked more like an attempt to keep some sort of the old Alliance of Lordaeron intact (be it in a twisted form, the one doing the "keeping" being Garithos), instead of trying to connect it to the new (or re-made) Alliance, which did not exist at the time.

    Yes, but actually Doomhammer after his capture already wasn't warchief, Ner'zhul was. So he at most could be a "former warchief".

    I took "kingdom" right from Orcs old wow intro .

    Im 100% certain Stormwind was in Alliance of Lordaeron because 1) There was no reasons to not be there 2) Lothar who actually was Stormwind leader at that time was frickin Supreme Commander of the Alliance, and not only that but it was he, was who convinced others to create Alliance in the first place!

    If you insist that there are old Alliance and new Alliance, then please, can you find any ingame(or book) proof that Alliance was remade? Because everything i see says that there was only one - Grand Alliance. Did Alliance of Lordaeron even mentioned in lore? Because i belive this term used only to clarify which period of Alliance history is in dispute, and is just like "who is on charge now".


    us.battle.net/wow/en/game/the-story-of-warcraft/chapter2


    upd. never mind here it is us.battle.net/wow/en/game/the-story-of-warcraft/chapter6 New Horde and not_as_new_Alliance
    Last edited by Lins; 2013-11-07 at 09:37 AM.

  14. #234
    Warchief Serenais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    Yes, but actually Doomhammer after his capture already wasn't warchief, Ner'zhul was. So he at most could be a "former warchief".
    True, but, I doubt that Doomhammer did recognise Ner'zhul's authority. Either way, the connection is only in the "office" (that word sounds really out of place there...) of warchief, nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    I took "kingdom" right from Orcs old wow intro .
    I do not dispute that. I am just saying that they do not even have a king, there isn't any semblance of a dynastic reign, etc. While there were elective monarchies (Kingdom of Bohemia did elect kings when needed, for example) and there is something of the matter nowadays (the case of Andorra, though it's... really unconventional nowadays), they resemble the orcish nation even less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    Im 100% certain Stormwind was in Alliance of Lordaeron because 1) There was no reasons to not be there 2) Lothar who actually was Stormwind leader at that time was frickin Supreme Commander of the Alliance, and not only that but it was he, was who convinced others to create Alliance in the first place!

    If you insist that there are old Alliance and new Alliance, then please, can you find any ingame(or book) proof that Alliance was remade? Because everything i see says that there was only one - Grand Alliance. Did Alliance of Lordaeron even mentioned in lore? Because i belive this term used only to clarify period, and is just like "who is on charge now".
    I base my opinion on the facts that we do not know of any event where the Kingdom of Stormwind did enter the Alliance of Lordaeron - the Alliance of Lordaeron did restore Kingdom of Stormwind, but that doesn't imply membership either - NATO restored the Republic of Afghanistan (I believe the proper name is different, though), however, Afghanistan is not a member of the organisation, the fact that we do not know of any event that would signify that the institutions of the Alliance of Lordaeron would be moved to Stormwind (or elsewhere). Anduin Lothar was both a supreme commander of Alliance forces and the Regent of the Kingdom of Stormwind, however, that at best implies some sort of weird personal union. He did convince others to ally themselves against the orcs, however, he never did come under the command of either of them, which, yet again, doesn't imply membership. Varian Wrynn, who was the sovereign of Stormwind back then (as recognised by the kings of the Alliance kingdoms), is nowhere mentioned to have ever agree or have his kingdom enter membership of the Alliance. Lack of a treaty legally means that no relationship between two legal entities exists in the issue of said treaty, thus, if there is no known event/list that would state that Kingdom of Stormwind is a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron. The other kings are portrayed to agree on forming the Alliance, however, nobody from Stormwind is ever shown to do so, nor are they actually stated to be in that alliance before the fall of Lordaeron.

    As for the Alliance of Lordaeron being called "Alliance of Lordaeron", http://wowpedia.org/Alliance_of_Lordaeron - there you go. I am aware that "Azeroth" is listed there as one of the Seven Kingdoms, however, the book Tides of Darkness does nowhere state that Stormwind actually did enter the Alliance (while the other kings are shown to agree to their membership, one way or another), and since Warcraft II has been retconned more times than I can count, I do not consider it a reliable resource anymore (and instead go with the books and WoW ingame material). However, the article clearly states that Alliance of Lordaeron was a predecessor of the current Alliance, thus significantly implies that the Alliance of Lordaeron and the current one are two separate entities, membership notwithstanding.
    That, and if Kingdom of Stormwind was also a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron, then we come to a rather BIG problem - it starts to give credibility to the Alliance claim to Lordaeron, and I probably do not have to state what that would imply.

  15. #235
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    Well going on the talk these two (well the whole party of statues at Stormwind) are going to be the main characters of the new WoW film, it seems likely they'll be back so as to tie into the film. Although my guess would be they remain Alliance, something else/someone will be the Horde focus.

    In my mind at least.

  16. #236
    I still think that Alleria will be friendly to the Blood Elves, at the very least. She'll also want to meet Sylvanas...

    God, that will be sad.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    True, but, I doubt that Doomhammer did recognise Ner'zhul's authority. Either way, the connection is only in the "office" (that word sounds really out of place there...) of warchief, nothing else.


    I do not dispute that. I am just saying that they do not even have a king, there isn't any semblance of a dynastic reign, etc. While there were elective monarchies (Kingdom of Bohemia did elect kings when needed, for example) and there is something of the matter nowadays (the case of Andorra, though it's... really unconventional nowadays), they resemble the orcish nation even less.


    I base my opinion on the facts that we do not know of any event where the Kingdom of Stormwind did enter the Alliance of Lordaeron - the Alliance of Lordaeron did restore Kingdom of Stormwind, but that doesn't imply membership either - NATO restored the Republic of Afghanistan (I believe the proper name is different, though), however, Afghanistan is not a member of the organisation, the fact that we do not know of any event that would signify that the institutions of the Alliance of Lordaeron would be moved to Stormwind (or elsewhere). Anduin Lothar was both a supreme commander of Alliance forces and the Regent of the Kingdom of Stormwind, however, that at best implies some sort of weird personal union. He did convince others to ally themselves against the orcs, however, he never did come under the command of either of them, which, yet again, doesn't imply membership. Varian Wrynn, who was the sovereign of Stormwind back then (as recognised by the kings of the Alliance kingdoms), is nowhere mentioned to have ever agree or have his kingdom enter membership of the Alliance. Lack of a treaty legally means that no relationship between two legal entities exists in the issue of said treaty, thus, if there is no known event/list that would state that Kingdom of Stormwind is a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron. The other kings are portrayed to agree on forming the Alliance, however, nobody from Stormwind is ever shown to do so, nor are they actually stated to be in that alliance before the fall of Lordaeron.

    As for the Alliance of Lordaeron being called "Alliance of Lordaeron", wowpedia.org/Alliance_of_Lordaeron - there you go. I am aware that "Azeroth" is listed there as one of the Seven Kingdoms, however, the book Tides of Darkness does nowhere state that Stormwind actually did enter the Alliance (while the other kings are shown to agree to their membership, one way or another), and since Warcraft II has been retconned more times than I can count, I do not consider it a reliable resource anymore (and instead go with the books and WoW ingame material). However, the article clearly states that Alliance of Lordaeron was a predecessor of the current Alliance, thus significantly implies that the Alliance of Lordaeron and the current one are two separate entities, membership notwithstanding.
    That, and if Kingdom of Stormwind was also a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron, then we come to a rather BIG problem - it starts to give credibility to the Alliance claim to Lordaeron, and I probably do not have to state what that would imply.
    wowpedia.org/Alliance_of_Lordaeron I mean lore-wise, thats article fully created by players. I never heard about 2 different Alliances in lore.

    "Anduin Lothar was both a supreme commander of Alliance forces and the Regent of the Kingdom of Stormwind, however, that at best implies some sort of weird personal union. He did convince others to ally themselves against the orcs, however, he never did come under the command of either of them, which, yet again, doesn't imply membership."

    And he shouldn't because he was leader of Alliance and Therenas became only after his death. Or that's sounds just ridiculous, they can't give rights to lead a union to someone who doesn't belongs there. Alliance started as war coalition and the fact that Stormwind troops participated in second war mean that they are part of it


    "Varian Wrynn, who was the sovereign of Stormwind back then (as recognised by the kings of the Alliance kingdoms), is nowhere mentioned to have ever agree or have his kingdom enter membership of the Alliance."

    Because he was child and Lothar regent, yes

    "That, and if Kingdom of Stormwind was also a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron, then we come to a rather BIG problem - it starts to give credibility to the Alliance claim to Lordaeron, and I probably do not have to state what that would imply."

    I don't see BIG problem here, Stormwind already have right (as they think) to claim Lordaeron just because of refugees from there and they don't care about Forsaken because they don't actually you know, live there. Same for Forsaken who don't care about Alliance claims and belive themselves as rightful owners of Lordaeron, and thats why we have war. And credibility before what authorities? There are no United Nations of Azeroth, Amani have rights to Quel'Thalas but no one cares, because there is only right of the strongest.

  18. #238
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    True, but, I doubt that Doomhammer did recognise Ner'zhul's authority. Either way, the connection is only in the "office" (that word sounds really out of place there...) of warchief, nothing else.


    I do not dispute that. I am just saying that they do not even have a king, there isn't any semblance of a dynastic reign, etc. While there were elective monarchies (Kingdom of Bohemia did elect kings when needed, for example) and there is something of the matter nowadays (the case of Andorra, though it's... really unconventional nowadays), they resemble the orcish nation even less.


    I base my opinion on the facts that we do not know of any event where the Kingdom of Stormwind did enter the Alliance of Lordaeron - the Alliance of Lordaeron did restore Kingdom of Stormwind, but that doesn't imply membership either - NATO restored the Republic of Afghanistan (I believe the proper name is different, though), however, Afghanistan is not a member of the organisation, the fact that we do not know of any event that would signify that the institutions of the Alliance of Lordaeron would be moved to Stormwind (or elsewhere). Anduin Lothar was both a supreme commander of Alliance forces and the Regent of the Kingdom of Stormwind, however, that at best implies some sort of weird personal union. He did convince others to ally themselves against the orcs, however, he never did come under the command of either of them, which, yet again, doesn't imply membership. Varian Wrynn, who was the sovereign of Stormwind back then (as recognised by the kings of the Alliance kingdoms), is nowhere mentioned to have ever agree or have his kingdom enter membership of the Alliance. Lack of a treaty legally means that no relationship between two legal entities exists in the issue of said treaty, thus, if there is no known event/list that would state that Kingdom of Stormwind is a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron. The other kings are portrayed to agree on forming the Alliance, however, nobody from Stormwind is ever shown to do so, nor are they actually stated to be in that alliance before the fall of Lordaeron.

    As for the Alliance of Lordaeron being called "Alliance of Lordaeron", http://wowpedia.org/Alliance_of_Lordaeron - there you go. I am aware that "Azeroth" is listed there as one of the Seven Kingdoms, however, the book Tides of Darkness does nowhere state that Stormwind actually did enter the Alliance (while the other kings are shown to agree to their membership, one way or another), and since Warcraft II has been retconned more times than I can count, I do not consider it a reliable resource anymore (and instead go with the books and WoW ingame material). However, the article clearly states that Alliance of Lordaeron was a predecessor of the current Alliance, thus significantly implies that the Alliance of Lordaeron and the current one are two separate entities, membership notwithstanding.
    That, and if Kingdom of Stormwind was also a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron, then we come to a rather BIG problem - it starts to give credibility to the Alliance claim to Lordaeron, and I probably do not have to state what that would imply.
    Stormwind was recognized as an Alliance kingdom despite being destroyed and king Terenas himself invited the then young Varian to Lordaeron. Even if you somehow argue that Stormwind was technically not part of the old alliance because Varian was not of age to sign a treaty we still have the dwarves of Khaz Modan who were members of that alliance. Plus I really doubt that when Alleria returns she will start thinking about it that way, she will not care about semantics and technicalities. All that she will see is a horde with the orcs that she hates and blood elves who are probably led by the people that she disregarded when they told her to NOT help the Alliance. She will also be disappointed in the behavior of her undead sister who thinks that raising the dead as forsaken is right. When she looks at the Alliance she will see her people, the high elves, who are unaffected by demonic taint, her living sister Vereesa and the people of her husband.

    Tell me who would you choose?
    An undead sister that committed atrocious crimes or a living sister?
    A portion of your people that succumbed to demonic taint and allied with some of your worst enemies or a portion of your people that resisted and are in the faction that your husband supports?

    And are some people really arguing that she was a friend to Lor'themar? Even if she used to be it doesn't matter, she hasn't seen him in years but she has certainly been through a lot with her husband all this time.
    There is no way that she would choose a crazy undead sister and a "friend" over a living sister and her husband and that is obvious even if you ignore the fact that they are allied with the orcs.

    However, I can totally see Alleria trying to "help" her sister, that much is reasonable and expected but this shouldn't make her a friend to the orcs :P
    Last edited by mmocae49c451bc; 2013-11-07 at 11:14 AM.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaikal21 View Post
    If one of these happen :



    2) Turalyon is still Alliance but Alleria finds out about what happened to her kingdom and the Blood Elves, and decides to join Lor'themar.

    If you want my personal opinion on this, i'd like both of them to show up and join the Alliance. Damn, they even have their own statues in Stormwind, to me they are two important heroes of the Alliance.
    But i have this feeling...that Alleria will choose to protect her kingdom, Quel'Thalas.
    I guess it'll be a tough decision for her : To stay with her husband and her sister Vereesa , or fight for Quel'Thalas...and join her other sister, Sylvanas.
    Won't Happen. The orcs (horde essentially) killed her family and she vowed vengeance on them not to mention she'll probably have a mental breakdown seeing as how one sister is dead (sylvanas) and part of the horde

  20. #240
    I'm Alliance, and I don't care about both of them...

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