how are dk tanks

[Rixarius]

warrior > paladin > monk = dk = druid

devo is way way better than amz that no dk really takes anyway

monks dks and druids all bring niche things like ability to kite, roar, aoe grip, monks 30% thing that is kinda deadly, druids HotW tranq and shit like that - all bit meh but can be awesome on specific fights

If you're rating this by Heroic Progression tanks, then I disagree completely. Monks are pretty much must have because of the insane damage they do, on top of the absorbs they put out, and then they have all those niche abilities to top it off. And then Paladins come after that with alot of damage, alot of off healing, and also alot of utility.

Warriors are good tanks for the sake of tanking, but there are other classes that can tank well and then some more.

On topic though; DKs are very viable for progression, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They do require quite a bit of skill to minimize your damage intake, as you are in charge of keeping yourself alive. You won't do as much damage as other tanks, but there are a few small but noticable things that are nice for DK tanks, such as high vengeance blood worm explosions that can top off a raid.

[Deleted]

but there are a few small but noticable things that are nice for DK tanks, such as high vengeance blood worm explosions that can top off a raid.

I don't think blood worms work that way, since the base healing is based on their health pool, which in turn is based on yours.

See, that's another issue with blood Death Knights, where every single tank gets lots and lots of huge numbers in 25-m because of high vengeance, while our class completely ignores it except for damage. Now, that's something completely different, but we have our share of mechanical and scaling issues. (Too good in 5-mans/solo, not enough in insanely hard hitting environments.)

Combat res is hardly raid utility nowadays, since the spell is available for 4 other classes. (As an example, in my 25-m raid group, I almost never use it because we have 3 druids, 2 warlocks, 3 hunters and if in dire need of more, symbiosed paladins.) AMZ will never be worth picking as long as it is competing with Purgatory, because it has a very small radius, is stationary and only lasts 3 seconds, and also considering how hard some bosses are actually hitting. (1.2m melee swing from 25 hc Malkorok, woo) And blood worms well, are 90% overhealing and will almost never burst when you need them. (i.e., you can't establish a strategy revolving around them, because they're unpredictable.)

Tank mobility is also something quite important, as it helps with kiting, picking up adds or zone/mines/whatever soaking. We clearly lack in this department, a nice example would be heroic Juggernaut, where a warrior tank can charge/heroic leap on every single mine and denotate them, while our miserable 30% increase to movement speed is sometime not enough to make the cut.

We are obviously viable, but we don't bring much to the table in reality.

[bals]

If you're rating this by Heroic Progression tanks, then I disagree completely. Monks are pretty much must have because of the insane damage they do, on top of the absorbs they put out, and then they have all those niche abilities to top it off. And then Paladins come after that with alot of damage, alot of off healing, and also alot of utility.

Warriors are good tanks for the sake of tanking, but there are other classes that can tank well and then some more.

I think you're missing that this tier, warriors are right up there with monks in damage ability.

[Deleted]

If you're rating this by Heroic Progression tanks, then I disagree completely. Monks are pretty much must have because of the insane damage they do, on top of the absorbs they put out, and then they have all those niche abilities to top it off. And then Paladins come after that with alot of damage, alot of off healing, and also alot of utility.

Warriors are good tanks for the sake of tanking, but there are other classes that can tank well and then some more.

On topic though; DKs are very viable for progression, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They do require quite a bit of skill to minimize your damage intake, as you are in charge of keeping yourself alive. You won't do as much damage as other tanks, but there are a few small but noticable things that are nice for DK tanks, such as high vengeance blood worm explosions that can top off a raid.

ofc i am talking about hc progression a warlock can tank normals (just an expression not fact), tbh all tanks are fairly close in their personal damage with warriors and monks being the top, dks pretty strong on aoe, and paladins pretty decent at single target, druids are also not bad, however warriors bring crit banner which is a raid dps buff they also bring RC and demo banner.

bloodworms are hp based, not vengeance, if you play a dk correctly the damage out put is pretty similar to other classes - single target is a bit weaker than other tank classes but our aoe is pretty strong. and for the person saying about movement and the iron jug being an example -> if you have engineering which lets face it everyone in the game should have it (or you are doing it wrong) you can quite easily pick up all 3 mines while taking 0 damage, our movement isn't the best but can be offset by engineering

[Deleted]

if you play a dk correctly the damage out put is pretty similar to other classes - single target is a bit weaker than other tank classes but our aoe is pretty strong.

If you're using haste, crit or whatever, possibly, yeah. Maybe it does feel balanced when raiding as 10m, but as a mastery/avoidance 25m tank, I can't really compete with my tank buddies that are lucky enough to get the most survival value out of offensive stats. Doing the same as a DK in that kind of environment is resulting in a huge, unnecessary increase in damage taken.

and for the person saying about movement and the iron jug being an example -> if you have engineering which lets face it everyone in the game should have it (or you are doing it wrong) you can quite easily pick up all 3 mines while taking 0 damage, our movement isn't the best but can be offset by engineering

It'll help you once, but then you're on your own. Band-aid fix at it's best.

Our mobility isn't just "not the best", it's the worst amongst all the other tanks, and I'm certainly not satisfied with the idea of using a profession in order to "fix" something that should have been changed during MoP beta. It's not gonna help us, at all.

[valax]

Pair a dk with a disci priest and then dare to say they are squishy or bad compared to other tanks.. + we have our own Lay on Hand with ghoul a badass magic dmg reduction and a fair physical dmg reduction i'm actually thinking of rerolling cos the class now is just boring when there is like 2% chance of dying

[Deleted]

If you're using haste, crit or whatever, possibly, yeah. Maybe it does feel balanced when raiding as 10m, but as a mastery/avoidance 25m tank, I can't really compete with my tank buddies that are lucky enough to get the most survival value out of offensive stats. Doing the same as a DK in that kind of environment is resulting in a huge, unnecessary increase in damage taken.


It'll help you once, but then you're on your own. Band-aid fix at it's best.

Our mobility isn't just "not the best", it's the worst amongst all the other tanks, and I'm certainly not satisfied with the idea of using a profession in order to "fix" something that should have been changed during MoP beta. It's not gonna help us, at all.

even being survivability you can still max your dps and be close to the damage of other tanks. yes the mobility isnt the best and the IJ you can use glider to get quickly from one to another as well as the belt, tbh if you play well and position yourself 99% of the time DA is fine for me don't really need more

[Skarssen]

if you have engineering which lets face it everyone in the game should have it (or you are doing it wrong) you can quite easily pick up all 3 mines while taking 0 damage, our movement isn't the best but can be offset by engineering

How exactly are you taking zero damage when exploding mines?

[Deleted]

How exactly are you taking zero damage when exploding mines?

You can use DS on them, and stack up your shield before soaking. That's what I usually do when I have the time. (i.e. if they're not too far from each other.)

even being survivability you can still max your dps and be close to the damage of other tanks

Yeah, I'm still nowhere near our monk or our druid. Even our warrior is starting to get huge numbers, thanks to the deep wound buff, and the flat +10% increase to damage, which literally sublimates vengeance. And the guy is generating 1.5m+ shield barrier with that, too. :s

[Eklypto]

Any tank is viable in any progression setting. It purely comes down to the individual that is playing that class and what options you have.

I am the MT in 25H with the other tank being a Warrior, we also utilize a Brewmaster for 3 tank fights. I have yet to beat by either of them when it comes to tank damage, the only time that I was is on Heroic Spoils, all due to the warrior getting the Brew Panda buff twice and I only received it once.

Obviously there are Prot Warriors out there that would blow me out of the water most likely, but that doesn't mean that I am any less viable. The raid leader for our group that plays a resto druid says he prefers healing me over the warrior, due to my own self heals and also having faith in me as a tank and knowing how to rotate my CD's.

TLDS, all tanks are viable, depends on the tank options you have and the person playing that class. If you rely on tank DPS that much, you need to rethink your actual DPS roster.

[Deleted]

I am the MT in 25H with the other tank being a Warrior, we also utilize a Brewmaster for 3 tank fights. I have yet to beat by either of them when it comes to tank damage, the only time that I was is on Heroic Spoils, all due to the warrior getting the Brew Panda buff twice and I only received it once.

Our BrM is well geared and often tops the charts, even on single target fights.

You're also using LOTS of avoidance, which isn't the case of everyone.

[zer0xfr]

I am the MT in 25H with the other tank being a Warrior, we also utilize a Brewmaster for 3 tank fights. I have yet to beat by either of them when it comes to tank damage, the only time that I was is on Heroic Spoils, all due to the warrior getting the Brew Panda buff twice and I only received it once.

Sorry to break it to you, but you even say it yourself "MT", which means you are often the one starting, so you are never without vengeance. It means a lot when it comes to dmg done at the end of the fight.

On topic:
To the people who claim Dk tanks is fine - Please learn how the classes work. There is no doubt the Dk is the tank class with the least amount of utility in every aspect. The only upside of being a DK is the insane effective HP you can have and is not linked to vengeance. Warrior and monk in some cases can get a much higher eff hp as they have no cap on their absorbs, while we are capped at 100% (pretty much) hp on our blood shield. Our talent tree (DK in general) is the most messy of all classes, our glyphs are fairly weak and insignificant. For everything tank related DK is very much in line with the others. It just doesn't bring anything to the raid. Which is why I rate it as the worst tank, but 1 will always be the worst.

In SoO there is pretty much only 1 fight where I would say being a DK is nice and that is Iron Juggernaut, because of the high eff hp makes soaking mines easier than most other tanks - You need your raid not to be too far apart tho, which they shouldn't be for healers sake anyway. On Garrosh heroic (The most important), DK is really bad in the first transmission phase (Temple of the jade serpent) (1 of the most important phases to the fight) as we rely on our dots for dmg, and have no AoE stun (Remorseless is crap) / AoE Interrupt. All other tanks can lock down a pack atleast once - Monk and warrior can even solo a pack. But we do shine in 2nd transmission phase because we can do insane damage with the dots - I do 35-50% of my raids dmg (10 man) in there, so that more than makes up for us being slower than other tanks at getting up there.

TLDR; DK tanks works for all tanking related stuff, but brings nothing else to the table compared to the 4 alternatives.

[Deleted]

DK is really bad in the first transmission phase (1 of the most important things to the fight) as we rely on our dots for dmg, and have no AoE stun (Remorseless is crap) / Interrupt.
.

Srsly, 2 interupts 1 with 30y range , grip wich also interupt casting, aoe stun. Tell me how other tanks are better here

[elderamy]

Srsly, 2 interupts 1 with 30y range , grip wich also interupt casting, aoe stun. Tell me how other tanks are better here

really?

- Disrupting Shout
- Dragon Roar

Just as an example, my warrior m8 doesn't even need to target the MCs just needs to press the button... that's pretty much the interrupts we need for 90% of the fight...


in any case Remorseless Winter requires 5 stacks = 5 secs which is enough for MCs to cast MC on other players... don't even compare them! plus it only stuns and does not interrupt... GG empowered MC...
ideally when RW kicks in, the targets should be off the MC already or very close too which just delays stuff by giving them 6 secs of inactivity...

[Eklypto]

Sorry to break it to you, but you even say it yourself "MT", which means you are often the one starting, so you are never without vengeance. It means a lot when it comes to dmg done at the end of the fight.

Being the MT and initiating the pull only really applies to some of the fights. Numerous fights both tanks will be getting equal amounts of tank uptime and vengeance uptime. Also due to many tank swap mechanics, vengeance will still fall off before needing to tank again, it evens out in the end of the fight, the only was this is skewed is if the MT also is tanking ultimately when the boss dies. But fights like Dark Shaman and Protectors give you an easy way of judging how far tanks can push themselves due to equal tanking. You can use the below as examples, Kemsa is the other tank, and as I mentioned player skill comes into play and I have no problem admitting that many other tanks exist that could beat my dps as well.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...e=5517#Eklypto
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e=5935#Eklypto


I think you also fail to highlight some of the useful things that Blood can be utilized for, Gorefiend during Norushen to quickly grab all the Reflections=amazing, this also is helpful on Dark Shaman, Spoils, Garrosh especially in 25's. Blood DKs can tank longer during Thok after 1st phase due to AMS blocking debuff applications.

[Deleted]

Still only interuptn mele, when dk can interupt from distance and mele. I see that some ppl just dont accept any other point of view then themselves, so will not post in this thread any more BB

[Deleted]

Still only interuptn mele, when dk can interupt from distance and mele. I see that some ppl just dont accept any other point of view then themselves, so will not post in this thread any more BB

That kind of reasoning applies to both parties.

You see things your way, other people see it differently. That's the whole point of discussing such matters together, even if it means some guys won't always agree with you.

And to be fair, most melee classes can interrupt by stunning right on the spot while we can't, unless we completely forget about mobility. (Strangulate vs DA) Remorseless Winter isn't immediate and most of the time, not reliable if you want to interrupt something. Not to say that you can't even use it if you're already using GG (which is arguably the most useful tool in our arsenal this expansion). So all in all, things are pretty limited. A paladin could stun, interrupt, disorient (Blinding Light w/e the name of that ability is), and even CC via Repentance if he wanted to, and there's no real loss for the guy if he wants to do that.

Not even talking about the fact we have to sacrifice personal survival in order to bring a raid-cooldown, while that pink motherlover doesn't even have to spend a talent point in order to get his.

[Ikrekot]

Our aoe stun can't even stun always because target can't be immunue to slow effects.

Every tank have better raid utillity. I waiting for 6.0 beta to see if we get some raid cd as skill not talent.

[Deleted]

Our aoe stun can't even stun always because target can't be immunue to slow effects.

Every tank have better raid utillity. I waiting for 6.0 beta to see if we get some raid cd as skill not talent.

personaly i hope for the removal of all raid CDs except healers

[elderamy]

Still only interuptn mele, when dk can interupt from distance and mele. I see that some ppl just dont accept any other point of view then themselves, so will not post in this thread any more BB

what game do you even play?
all other tanks have a stun/interrupt/silence from distance


I do think you should take some of your own advice!

So, you make random claims, just to be proven wrong, because you talk about something you clearly don't know about!
Then proceed as if you were right, while changing the topic you were talking about and claim ppl don't accept others pov...
Good job

so will not post in this thread any more BB

please do so..