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  1. #721
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I don't understand what you guys are talking about with regards to falling.

    When Malkorok knocks me into the air, with both mouse buttons I face the direction I want to blink, hold "w" and click blink.

    Then I go exactly where I want to go. Are you all giving it a chance or writing it off based off assumption?

    And yes there is a mage developer, but that doesn't mean anything.

  2. #722
    My problem's purely with knockback not knock up, also it's harder to juke with momentum!

  3. #723
    I want some kind of secondary resource but it probably won't happen. Here's why.
    There's limited number of ways to make a rotation:
    1) Procs. We have too many of them already.
    2) Spells on short sooldowns which have high damage/buff damage/put debuff on enemy. Long cooldowns don't count. The example of cooldown-based class is Enh Shamans. I would say that right now Shaman is the only class that works almost entirely on this model, other classes have mix of different ways to make a rotation.
    3) DoTs. Essentially this is a variation of the previous case. Difference is that DoT doesn't have a cooldown, but it's useless to spam it, you have to wait for DoT to end (or at least for half of it's duration to expire in case of Warlocks). The relation between DoT and spells on cooldowns is further revealed by pairing of 2 DoTs and cooldown in level 75 talent tier (Frost Bomb vs Living Bomb/Nether Tempest). Also historically Mage is not a DoT class so I don't like this direction for us.
    Mages are enforced to use existing DoTs. First of all by Pyromaniac debuff for Fire Spec and Brain Freeze proc for Frost spec. Finally in April bombs were buffed by 40%.
    4) "Skillshots" = excessive clicking. This is a case with Rune of Power, Power Crystal and Meteor. You need to click on the spell button, choose a place for it, then click on it. First implementation of RoP while theoretically interesting was horrible for me. Power Crystal and Meteor is more of the same. I keep wondering why developers keep going this way for Mages and not other classes: excessive clicking feels very artificial and awkward in single target rotation. Also other classes lose that mechanic. Lighwell became Lightspring, Hand of Gul'Dan now requires selecting a target instead of the area and only Mages are left with "stop what you're doing and aim for something on a screen" button in their single-target rotation.
    5) Limited resource. It's Rogue, Warrior and Hunter model. Developers tried to implement it for Destro Locks with Chaotic Energy but it doesn't really work and needs more tight tuning. Arcane mana management is a variation of this system.
    6) Secondary resource management. Realistically the best model what allows diversification. Devs are able to make more complex rotations and priorities for players. It's interesting that Mages got some sort of clone of those mechanics that didn't quite work because we don't actually have secondary resource. The different ways to use secondary resource are:
    a) Competition between self buff and damaging ability. It's a choice between Inquisition and Templar Verdinct for Paladins, Slice and Dice and Eviscarate/Rupture/etc. for Rogues and other option for other classes.
    Mages actually got two variations of this mechanic. First one is Cata version of Arcane there Mages got to choose between buff from high amount of Mana and burst from 4 stacks of Arcane Blast. Second one is Invocation in 5.0 version. Both of them didn't actualy work that well because insted of spending secondary resource Mage are constrained by timing of Evocation, and Mages have no way to change Evocation cooldown whereas other classes can receive secondary resource. Since Evocation in both cases has same cooldown, it makes rotation feel very Metronomic and predictable whereas secondary resource allows choice and mistakes.
    b) Storing up and spending of the resource. Best example is Demo Lock, next on is Destro lock. I would say that this model is more successful younger brother of Arcane mana spending model (once again, secondary resource is better constraint then fixed cooldown of Evocation).
    c) Soft cooldown. Building up combo points means that you can't spam big nukes and finishers, so effectively they are on coldown, but it's defined not by time per se, but by users actions. Hides the cooldown from user and makes him responsible for big/meaninful abilities, creates more interesting gameplay.
    d) Interaction of resources Rune spending increases Runic Power, spending Energy builds up Combo Points.
    I probably forgot something but for the moment that's all I can think of.

    Now to Mages. It seems to me that Blizzard is in a corner with Mage class design. We know that devs want to make a rotation more complicated and level 90 talents were an attempt to do that, but now that they are (hopefully) gone, there must be something new to add to our spellbooks.
    Let's look at the things class designers can do. Devs don't want to spend much time on design and new secondary resource-related work is a huge time-eater. Also it seems that they don't want to touch core mechanics (2 mechanics per spec) and just want to add some buttons to make rotations more complicated. But again, they don't want to spend much time on Mages - band-aidish updates such as level 90 talents (which are really a rehashes of some machanics of two-resource classes with a twist), obligatory DoTs and addition of multiple "skillshots" i.e. click-and-aim-and-click-and-maybe-click-one-more-time-just-to-use-one-ability buttons show this.
    So I wonder what will devs do? Implement some spells on cooldowns in addition to procs? Add more DoTs? Will they increase number of charges of Pyroblast!, Magic Missiles, Brain Freeze or Fingers of Frost (oh, Demonology rip-off, sacrilege)? Or allow some abilities to decreas cooldwns of others? Or maybe make Mana Gems an Arcane Resource with shorter cooldown and some regeneration incombat mechanic? I'm eagerly waiting for what Blizzard will offer in WoD.
    Last edited by Orrin; 2013-12-03 at 05:42 AM.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    When Malkorok knocks me into the air, with both mouse buttons I face the direction I want to blink, hold "w" and click blink.
    Okay see, this may be a playstyle thing. I spam buttons. I use blink to put myself somewhere precise, facing the direction (not having to push my "move forward direction" button), and while I'm doing that, I'm spamming either 5 or mousewheel up (bound to scorch and fireball respectively). Can't spam fireball if I'm moving - in other words, while i'm pressing my keybind for blink, I'm spamming mousewheel up, so the spell is queued the second it's available. Fireball won't queue while in motion. We didn't always have scorch as our go to "on the move" spell, so this is a relic of my play style from wrath, not to mention, fireball is way higher DPCT than scorch.

    Also, what nick said, can't juke.

    Either way... it works well for some, and not for others. I for one celebrate our differences and like the fact that this is a real choice that we mages have to customize how we play.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orrin View Post
    So I wonder what will devs do?
    Best guess:

    Level 75 talents gone, bombs either removed, or become baseline. I'm hoping the level 75 talents become "orb" talents, and that we all get orbs to fire off in WoD, and the talents will enhance our orbs (by giving increased proc chances, maybe giving some CC, some buff to your, or debuff to your enemy, etc)

    Level 90 talents become dps cooldowns.

    Level 100 talents become new "button to press at the right time to give more depth to mage gameplay."

    That's just this humble man's guess.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    Level 75 talents gone, bombs either removed, or become baseline.
    Don't think developers will remove DoT at tier 75. GC was always edgy about the things hey are gonna do, but for level 90 talents he said 'we don't like them' a couple of months ago, bombs on the other hand were not mentioned at all or in a context of 'everything is fine'.

  6. #726
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    L75 isn't going anywhere as far as I understand it. Most we'll get is a small functional change and some work on frost bomb.

  7. #727
    That reads a bit more like a wishlist than a prediction

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I don't understand what you guys are talking about with regards to falling.

    When Malkorok knocks me into the air, with both mouse buttons I face the direction I want to blink, hold "w" and click blink.

    Then I go exactly where I want to go. Are you all giving it a chance or writing it off based off assumption?

    And yes there is a mage developer, but that doesn't mean anything.
    Did someone say anything about knockup? I didn't see... People (myself included) were referring to knockBACK, which you can't do ^ with Momentum, sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    My problem's purely with knockback not knock up, also it's harder to juke with momentum!



    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    L75 isn't going anywhere as far as I understand it. Most we'll get is a small functional change and some work on frost bomb.
    Castable while moving/instant would be a decent start. It's not like we can still detonate it early or anything...
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  9. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromelter View Post
    Leaving aside the issues with falling and knockback (which are huge), I often use blink while I'm strafing to place myself in a specific spot. Now, I could just start running in that direction, but then I'd lose my strafe, or I'd have to change direction to keep strafing in that direction. For example, if I want to blink either into or out of a doorway. ...snip
    Boldededed and redddededed for you.

    I'll go sit in my corner of unpopular preferences. It's a minor glyph. Just don't campaign to remove it because a "majority" says it's bad. I prefer it, and I make a good case for it. I don't want it to go away. I think options like this are what they should be focusing on and things like L75 and L90 (and probably L100) which are not true choices, are the problem with the class.

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Boldededed and redddededed for you.

    I'll go sit in my corner of unpopular preferences. It's a minor glyph. Just don't campaign to remove it because a "majority" says it's bad. I prefer it, and I make a good case for it. I don't want it to go away. I think options like this are what they should be focusing on and things like L75 and L90 (and probably L100) which are not true choices, are the problem with the class.
    Wat. Who's trying to remove it? I love the hell out of it; it's just really bad against knockbacks.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  11. #731
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I don't trust the community. It's an atmosphere where you feel if you don't argue we'll just end up being diablo wizards that drop demonic gateways and healthstones and have a healing spec. It's maddening.

  12. #732
    I honestly feel like our petty bickering about whether someone should use a glyph or not (which by the way was never about it being removed, only personal preference, you were even the one that started the line of discussion) had about the same effect on Blizzard's decision making process as me shouting very loudly from my house in the direction of Blizzard headquarters

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I don't trust the community. It's an atmosphere where you feel if you don't argue we'll just end up being diablo wizards that drop demonic gateways and healthstones and have a healing spec. It's maddening.
    I really am terribly confused about how you could possibly think that this is the case, especially as so much of the rhetoric on these forums is actually about how the devs never take anything this community thinks should happen seriously
    It wouldn't be true to say the devs never read this forum but I doubt they take it very seriously, and why would they? We don't really merit being taken particularly seriously.

  13. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I honestly feel like our petty bickering about whether someone should use a glyph or not (which by the way was never about it being removed, only personal preference, you were even the one that started the line of discussion) had about the same effect on Blizzard's decision making process as me shouting very loudly from my house in the direction of Blizzard headquarters



    I really am terribly confused about how you could possibly think that this is the case, especially as so much of the rhetoric on these forums is actually about how the devs never take anything this community thinks should happen seriously
    It wouldn't be true to say the devs never read this forum but I doubt they take it very seriously, and why would they? We don't really merit being taken particularly seriously.
    It's comical that you think they don't take it seriously, read, or incorporate ideas. People are far more impressionable than you think.

  14. #734
    Which changes would you say they've taken from us in the past, such that it's likely they are going to incorporate disintegration, healthstones, Heat for fire, haste on every stack of arcane charge, warlock portals, a healing spec and pets for fire and arcane?
    It's certainly not any of the talent feedback anyone was posting last time, and we're not even in beta for this expansion yet.

  15. #735
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    It's not remotely likely that they're doing any of that. I was being facetious by utilizing hyperbole to construct a statement that comically illustrates and draws attention to the absurd requests that happen on these and other forums which trends my inclination to paranoia of losing one of the things I do enjoy about my class.

    Did you get all that?

  16. #736
    Yes, hence why I said "While it is untrue that the devs don't read this forum at all, it is unlikely that they take it particularly seriously".
    They do definitely read MMO Champion and take it into account, but they're definitely not going to take that and remove glyphs for no reason, especially as nobody was even asking for it to be taken away. They have their own internal statistics for how many people use each glyph...

    If you'd not fought your corner and deluded yourself into thinking people were saying "delete this trash" then this wouldn't even have been a notable discussion in the first place, it would have been one guy saying "I like momentum" and another one saying "Momentum was ok at first but now I don't use it".
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-12-03 at 01:40 PM.

  17. #737
    Is the pissing contest over yet?

  18. #738
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Yes, hence why I said "While it is untrue that the devs don't read this forum at all, it is unlikely that they take it particularly seriously".
    They do definitely read MMO Champion and take it into account, but they're definitely not going to take that and remove glyphs for no reason, especially as nobody was even asking for it to be taken away. They have their own internal statistics for how many people use each glyph...

    If you'd not fought your corner and deluded yourself into thinking people were saying "delete this trash" then this wouldn't even have been a notable discussion in the first place, it would have been one guy saying "I like momentum" and another one saying "Momentum was ok at first but now I don't use it".
    So it's okay for you and others to present a case against it, but when I present a case for it-- which as I just went and re-read my posts was not unreasonable or pouting on a corner, or delusional in any way-- you take issue.

    Be a forum jackal if you wish, but you're not going to come out of this looking reasonable. I didn't keep the issue going, others kept it going as well. Which is funny because I believe that's the purpose of discussion, no?

  19. #739
    I'm not objecting to you wanting to speak your side, I was objecting to you throwing your hands up and saying "I need to do this because otherwise Blizzard will read this forum and delete the glyph from the game" which is clearly untrue.
    You're totally allowed to tell us why you think the glyph is great (though let's be honest, the 6.0 mage information topic is probably not the place to do that and we are all guilty of this).

    The entire contents of the post I replied to was "I don't trust the community. It's an atmosphere where you feel if you don't argue we'll just end up being diablo wizards that drop demonic gateways and healthstones and have a healing spec. It's maddening."
    None of that was arguing your case, it was purely ridiculous hyperbole, that is what I was telling you I did not want to see. That was the "pouting". Most of your other posts were fine, it is just here where you present it as some obligation to always make your voice as loud as possible in case Blizzard is watching that I think is just ridiculous and my point later was merely "it is funny that you think this because if you were really scared of Blizzard noticing, you are reacting in entirely the wrong way by being loud".
    I apologise if I misled you in some way!

    Discuss things because that is what the forum is for, not because the spectre of Ghostcrawler is hovering over your shoulder and you are trying to justify yourself to him at all times.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-12-03 at 02:06 PM.

  20. #740
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    *MOD WARNING* Keep discussion focused on things announced for 6.0 from Blizzcon or leaked since then. This topic isn't for bitching and/or moaning about the current state of the game. I reserve the right to lock things as my swizzly hands desire. *MOD WARNING*
    BfA Beta Time

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