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  1. #741
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    That's not specifically why, Imnick.

    I've seen opinions snowball, it happens in forums. So rather than me try to convince you all to Glyph Momentum, I am offering it as an option out there that it can be a viable glyph for some. I wish this ended back when we all sort of agreed some like it while others don't - but it kept being quoted and escalated into nonsense.

    I think if you pay attention to how I've posted since I became active in this community, I am an anti-groupthink. I don't like when too many people coalesce around one idea and piggy back off each other, snowballing an opinion or perception while a voiceless population doesn't speak. Quite often I clear a way through the crowd and act as a contrarian just because I like to stop, check ourselves, and march forward with an idea if we're sure we thought about it from all angles. It's easy to push forward in wrong directions under the guise of a good intention.

    So yeah I gave a bit too much lip with the diablo wizards comment. That's a manifestation and venting of my frustration with that other thread about disintegration beam and some really radical requests/suggestions that would most certainly lead me to quit (i.e. healing spec / warlock utility) any form of raiding.

    So apologies to mods & anyone else involved. I'll take it to PMs if there's more needed discussion on any specific matter off the topic of this thread.

  2. #742
    Just for the record, I like the fact that the momentum glyph is in the game. It gives players a real choice in how they want to customize their character.

    And I don't see anyone here arguing that we should remove it. I think the only way they would consider removing it is if someone found a way to abuse it, which seems quite unlikely outside of just how blink could be normally used.

    So to keep this on topic, my prediction for 6.0 and beyond is that glyph of momentum will still stay in the game, I won't use it, akraen will, and blizzard's storytelling will continue to go down the path of the star wars prequels.

  3. #743
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    On another note, I really hope our bomb damage is nerfed and our main spells are boosted to compensate. If I wanted to play a multi-dot class I would have switched to my Warlock. Still think the Bomb tier needs to go altogether honestly, just tie each bomb to its appropriate spec.

  4. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    On another note, I really hope our bomb damage is nerfed and our main spells are boosted to compensate. If I wanted to play a multi-dot class I would have switched to my Warlock. Still think the Bomb tier needs to go altogether honestly, just tie each bomb to its appropriate spec.
    And I completely disagree, nether tempest is my favorite spell in the game. The bomb tier gave us more diversity to be able to excel at more encounter designs, frost and arcane greatly benefited from being given a DoT effect, as before we had them they were purely single target nuke specs that really couldn't AoE (with the exception of massive amounts of adds stacked up all in one place).

    Frost bomb may need some tweaking, especially if they keep up with this trinket design of proccing off DoT effects only, but for the most part I think the bombs are in a good place heading into WoD.

    As far as the whole "If I wanted to play a DoT class I'd have rolled x" that argument just can't work anymore, as the game changes, as the encounters change, the classes have to change as well to fit the current design.

  5. #745
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'd rather see frostbomb explode into icicles that shoot all targets within 20 or 30yds.

    Too much begging tanks to have things close to each other these days. It's really annoying and raid leaders complain.

  6. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    And I completely disagree, nether tempest is my favorite spell in the game. The bomb tier gave us more diversity to be able to excel at more encounter designs, frost and arcane greatly benefited from being given a DoT effect, as before we had them they were purely single target nuke specs that really couldn't AoE (with the exception of massive amounts of adds stacked up all in one place).

    Frost bomb may need some tweaking, especially if they keep up with this trinket design of proccing off DoT effects only, but for the most part I think the bombs are in a good place heading into WoD.

    As far as the whole "If I wanted to play a DoT class I'd have rolled x" that argument just can't work anymore, as the game changes, as the encounters change, the classes have to change as well to fit the current design.
    The only reason why things are like this is because Blizz gave us a bandaid fix by boosting our bomb damage by 40%, forcing us into this design, because our damage was too low. Before that, multi-dotting wasn't near as huge except for shared health pools. And it doesn't create "more diversity to excel" when the damage change is around ~1%-3% max. Yeah min maxers can "excel" with that extra 2k dps, but it really doesn't matter in the slightest.

    Nether Tempest is a great bomb, but it isn't fun (and yes this is subjective) when playing anything other than Arcane and sitting there dotting everything up and ignoring your base rotation in situations where you are losing DPS if you don't multi-dot. NT has its best Synergy with Arcane, Frost Bomb has its best Synergy with Frost (despite being a clunky spell, arguably), and Living Bomb needs to be a little patched up for Fire, and be able to be spread more around for Fire AoE to not suck horribly.

  7. #747
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    I don't know about that. Frost bomb is borderline unusable by frost mages. It requires impossible timing or precognition based of its fluctuating cooldown. It also takes a relatively mobile spec and makes it worse than arcane.

    The synergy comes from brain freeze procs, but that's it. Something -must- change with it or it'll continue to be PvP only.

    I think everyone would first suggest castable while moving, and while that is a bad thing-- it's the fluctuating cooldown that is the realm problem. It's very hard to have something that takes a second to cast that is your top priority come off cooldown anywhere between 2.3 and 6.6 seconds. You can't plan for it, you can't react, you can't cancel cast, all you can do is attempt to be psychic.

    See my recent posts in my guide for more info on that, but yeah that's something I would like to see them look at for 6.0. Nothing radical, just make it more usable. Maybe haste can give it another benefit rather than a dynamic cooldown. Maybe the more haste you get, the quicker it ticks, and each time it explodes it places another bomb on a nearby target (or itself), until 6 sec ends.

    Then it's not a DoT, but kind of acts like one, and the people who don't enjoy multidot don't have to deal with it.

  8. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I don't know about that. Frost bomb is borderline unusable by frost mages. It requires impossible timing or precognition based of its fluctuating cooldown. It also takes a relatively mobile spec and makes it worse than arcane.

    The synergy comes from brain freeze procs, but that's it. Something -must- change with it or it'll continue to be PvP only.

    I think everyone would first suggest castable while moving, and while that is a bad thing-- it's the fluctuating cooldown that is the realm problem. It's very hard to have something that takes a second to cast that is your top priority come off cooldown anywhere between 2.3 and 6.6 seconds. You can't plan for it, you can't react, you can't cancel cast, all you can do is attempt to be psychic.

    See my recent posts in my guide for more info on that, but yeah that's something I would like to see them look at for 6.0. Nothing radical, just make it more usable. Maybe haste can give it another benefit rather than a dynamic cooldown. Maybe the more haste you get, the quicker it ticks, and each time it explodes it places another bomb on a nearby target (or itself), until 6 sec ends.

    Then it's not a DoT, but kind of acts like one, and the people who don't enjoy multidot don't have to deal with it.
    Oh I just meant synergy with BF procs which I think works well, as I said too that the spell is clunky and I would like to see it changed a bit to make it flow better with the spec.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    And I completely disagree, nether tempest is my favorite spell in the game. The bomb tier gave us more diversity to be able to excel at more encounter designs, frost and arcane greatly benefited from being given a DoT effect, as before we had them they were purely single target nuke specs that really couldn't AoE (with the exception of massive amounts of adds stacked up all in one place).

    Frost bomb may need some tweaking, especially if they keep up with this trinket design of proccing off DoT effects only, but for the most part I think the bombs are in a good place heading into WoD.

    As far as the whole "If I wanted to play a DoT class I'd have rolled x" that argument just can't work anymore, as the game changes, as the encounters change, the classes have to change as well to fit the current design.
    I don't know if I agree with this. Having Nether Tempest be your biggest source of damage by a massive margin is pretty stupid. I don't have a huge problem with it being the top damage source (EDIT: I actually do. Fuck that. Why am I powering up my blasts/missiles/Barrages just to get stomped by a single DoT?), but often it's top by tens of millions, which is just insane.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-12-04 at 08:10 PM.

  10. #750
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I don't know if I agree with this. Having Nether Tempest be your biggest source of damage by a massive margin is pretty stupid. I don't have a huge problem with it being the top damage source (EDIT: I actually do. Fuck that. Why am I powering up my blasts/missiles/Barrages just to get stomped by a single DoT?), but often it's top by tens of millions, which is just insane.
    Mmmhmm, was Arcane for our H Fallen Protectors progression earlier and NT was around 50% of my damage done. It is just ridiculous.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    And I completely disagree, nether tempest is my favorite spell in the game. The bomb tier gave us more diversity to be able to excel at more encounter designs, frost and arcane greatly benefited from being given a DoT effect, as before we had them they were purely single target nuke specs that really couldn't AoE (with the exception of massive amounts of adds stacked up all in one place).

    Frost bomb may need some tweaking, especially if they keep up with this trinket design of proccing off DoT effects only, but for the most part I think the bombs are in a good place heading into WoD.

    As far as the whole "If I wanted to play a DoT class I'd have rolled x" that argument just can't work anymore, as the game changes, as the encounters change, the classes have to change as well to fit the current design.

    There are other ways to apply the NT debuff than just a DoT keybind though. Ignite and Pyro DoT are two examples. I can imagine AM debuffing the target with the NT DoT, and allowing that debuff to stack - so if there aren't multiple targets for NT cleave you still get more damage out. It'd still work with current encounter design while allowing Arcane to be more nuke focused - you would not maintain the NT debuff actively - you'd just use you AM procs.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Fim View Post
    There are other ways to apply the NT debuff than just a DoT keybind though. Ignite and Pyro DoT are two examples. I can imagine AM debuffing the target with the NT DoT, and allowing that debuff to stack - so if there aren't multiple targets for NT cleave you still get more damage out. It'd still work with current encounter design while allowing Arcane to be more nuke focused - you would not maintain the NT debuff actively - you'd just use you AM procs.
    Yup... remember, arcane blast used to apply slow which would activate Torment the Weak.

    Torment the Weak was awesome. I want it back. Would gladly take it back in exchange for removing bombs or even for the level 90 talents.

  13. #753
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    Could be a new potential talent, so have Bombs defaulted to their own spec, new talent like:

    Whenever you use Arcane Barrage, all targets it hits has Nether Tempest Applied to them. Inferno Blast now spreads Living Bomb up to 4 targets. Frost Bomb now explodes doing extra damage to all targets depending on the amount of icicles you have.

    Only thing is it favors cleave instead of multi-dotting everything, whether or not that is an issue.

  14. #754
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'd be a huge fan of having the bombs be applied via other spells.

    Frost bomb could be applied every 5th icicle hit automatically. Oh man that'd rock so hard.

  15. #755
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I'd be a huge fan of having the bombs be applied via other spells.

    Frost bomb could be applied every 5th icicle hit automatically. Oh man that'd rock so hard.
    Anything that gives icicles more use instead of passive damage I am open for. It is a good candidate for almost a secondary resource, but in its current state it is just meh.

  16. #756
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Or, or, or, ORRRRRRRR

    Each icicle that hits applies the frost bomb debuff and each subsequent icicle hit increases the duration and damage of your frost bomb. So the debuff extends without doing any damage.

    Then FoF (not an automatic icicle) detonates the bomb!

    Think about it! You could make some cool snap decisions to withhold a FoF for a buff, or the right time in a fight.

    It would feel sooooooo good.

  17. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Or, or, or, ORRRRRRRR

    Each icicle that hits applies the frost bomb debuff and each subsequent icicle hit increases the duration and damage of your frost bomb. So the debuff extends without doing any damage.

    Then FoF (not an automatic icicle) detonates the bomb!

    Think about it! You could make some cool snap decisions to withhold a FoF for a buff, or the right time in a fight.

    It would feel sooooooo good.
    It is an interesting mechanic no doubt. Balancing that for PvP could be problamatic if the bomb can't be dispelled, but damn imagine that on Phase 1 Garrosh when he calls in adds after you have had a bomb going for 20-30 seconds. Could be amazing. Or hell even during MC parts where people stack, just drop bomb on them and do a good chunk of damage to break the MC.

  18. #758
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'm really of the mind that they need to swing the pendulum back a little bit from "balance" and reintroduce "fun" because the sterile DPS environment of today isn't something I'm too keen on continuing into future expansions.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I'm really of the mind that they need to swing the pendulum back a little bit from "balance" and reintroduce "fun" because the sterile DPS environment of today isn't something I'm too keen on continuing into future expansions.
    Nobody has fun at the bottom though. And that would definitely kill class for raiding. Imagine if mages were consistently the lowest, but most fun mechanically. We'd never be brought into raids again.

    A good thought, but it would never work in the current content design where basically everyone has to raid at some level to get any sort of end-game experience.

  20. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Nobody has fun at the bottom though. And that would definitely kill class for raiding. Imagine if mages were consistently the lowest, but most fun mechanically. We'd never be brought into raids again.

    A good thought, but it would never work in the current content design where basically everyone has to raid at some level to get any sort of end-game experience.
    That'd depend entirely on encounter design.

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