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  1. #801
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    If you look at damage breakdown, you are completely backwards. Fire has the most damage done by single target spells by a long shot. Arcane and frost will either have NT being top by HUGE margins, im talking tens of millions in damage if there is anything with cleave, or LB will be 1st or just behind your main nuke for damage.
    I am talking about the design of the specs, not the damage they do. The initial design of the expansion, before the huge Bomb buffs, was geared to what I was saying. I am convinced the 40% bomb buffs was a bandaid to fix our damage, and the unintended consequence was making us a strong multi-dot class.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by taelon View Post
    We got 3 freeking ranged casting specs. Whats wrong with having clear diffrences, why can't one mage spec be more like a traditional warlock spec?
    Because Shadow Priests multidot, all Warlock specs multidot and Balance Druids multidot. That leaves only 2 caster classes that may not - Shamans (I have no idea if Flame Shock damage allows them to multidot) and Mages. But you know what? Mages multidot too!

    Quote Originally Posted by taelon View Post
    Shamans for example have totems as a difining feature but all 3 are incredibly diffrent
    Lol, they have 3 completely different specs - melee, healer and ranged caster, of course they are different. On the other hand pure classes specs that weren't redesigned in MoP are all too similar to each other, but it can't be the reason to give them quick fixes.
    I already wrote the list of the thigs developers can do for Mages. Of all simple solutions I would prefer some cooldowns since they don't break the theme of Mages being nukers. Something like Elemental Blast or empowered Pyro on cd.
    If you want to play multiDoT class I encourage you to play any other caster - they all are, they will all stay that way in WoD

  3. #803
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    I'm gonna miss Nether Tempest if they remove it or whatnot. Multidotting with it on many targets plus arcane explosion is amazing fun when farming mobs or doing things out in the world such as questing. Mage AoE and mob tagging ability will hopefully not be completely ruined with the incoming changes.
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    I'm with you on this critique. Nether tempest is probably my favorite spell in the game, not because "lol NT all teh mobs" but for the fact that the way it worked as a cleave was really unique. I thought the implementation of our bombs as talents was pretty good aside from frost bomb being so clunky, but I can understand why they would want to change them as there are just those situations where bomb damage got out of control.
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Playing well with NT actually made playing the class interesting. Maximizing NT cleave as arcane (or frost) on some bosses was challenging and was still a different dot playstyle than spriests or warlocks who have multiple dots and different ways of applying them.

    The big issue for me is mob tagging. There have been a lot of times when mages have been abnormally weak at tagging mobs because of a lack of decent instant casts without a cooldown - ice lance tagging of mobs is obviously garbage. Living bomb in ICC was nice but you had to be specced fire. I really don't see a reason why the bombs need to be removed, but the bombs being a necessity for high DPS on some fights might be something they could look at changing - perhaps removing the bomb component from some specs.
    Reading between the lines though, Nether Tempest might be for the chop given how easily it actually lends itself to multi-dotting.

    I'm not sad about losing the capacity to multi-dot. I found it cumbersome and irritating, a Warlock type action shoehorned onto my Mage. I'm glad to see it go although we MUST be appropriately compensated.

    Let us think about things, just for a moment.

    Celestalon's tweet indicates that the level 75 talents are going to get a pass but that doesn't necessarily mean they are getting replaced or removed. Level 75 is also where our talent problems begin (I am unsure if Icy Ward counts as a problem...) because I feel Nether Tempest and Living Bomb take up too much of the same design space.

    They are dots. Frost Bomb? I love Frost Bomb, it feels different from the other two and packs a wallop. But Nether Tempest and Living Bomb just feel too similar. In my perfect world, one of them should go and I think if you remove the multi-dotting aspect of Nether Tempest that Nether Tempest no longer has flavour. I cannot see how it can be modified to save it, and a choice of two dots based on one having a gcd and the other not having one or other superficial differences, it just isn't enough.

    P.S. I am starting to get my hopes up for patch 6.0.

    I think it's time to be honest. MoP was a great expansion but it was probably the weakest expansion for Mages since the Burning Crusade. So many bandaid hotfixes, from our aoe and bombs being massively buffed to compensate for initial under-tuning, Arcane going from 6 to 4 charges and Frost's mastery being redesigned as well as the perennial fire nerfs every patch, we gotta be frank.

    Our design this time around sucked.

    With the end of the hybrid tax we lack utility other classes bring to the table and our vaunted cc capacities are no longer useful except in highly selective circumstances. That may change in the hinted at new heroics and mythic raiding, but for the vast majority of Mage raiders it will remain true if nothing changes.

    Whilst I am personally glad about the removal of our multi-dotting capacities due to finding them irritating, it is still one less thing we can do.

    The devs hopefully know this. You don't redesign a rotation (Arcane), rebuild a mastery (Frost) or nerf a spec every patch due to it's design (fire) during an expansion cycle because your initial design was good.

    Fire needs a thorough pass to prevent the nerf cycle ever occuring again. Arcane needs some attention so that there isn't a collective groan when the dps meters prove it is on top again, I know Arcane has it's fans but virtually everyone finds fire more fun.
    And Frost needs a bit more flavour which I am convinced can only come from the pet. The Shaman TEMPORARY pets friom their primal elementalist talent have more abilities than our permanent mage pet for our frost spec.

    I am hoping for good things.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2013-12-16 at 10:00 AM.

  4. #804

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    I wonder, what is it about us mages quitting WoW
    I know this was off-hand, but I don't think it's a mage thing, I'm pretty sure it's a "whole game" thing. People are tired of the grind of this expac, and being rather alt-unfriendly (ie no cloak = normal/heroic raiding effectiveness is meh on alts), there isn't much keeping people tied to the game.

    And unlike the last 2 xpacs, fire mages aren't completely dominating the last tier of dps which would be the carrot to keep us around. Considering the xpac is still at least a good 6 months away or more, I would hypothesize we are going to see a continued sizable downturn in the general population as well as the mage pop.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Everyone's talking about stuff I was talking about months ago.
    So has everyone else, and much of which has been discussed around here and on the official boards since MoP beta.

  6. #806
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    It just seems like the discussion has been rebooted. Didn't we all argue about this stuff at length enough?

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    It just seems like the discussion has been rebooted. Didn't we all argue about this stuff at length enough?
    Comfirmation about something for a class that has been unhappy with how they have been forced to play for a really long time. Yeah that might stir up some discussion, not only because of the tweet itself, but it gives hope that they might.. just might take a hard look and fix Mages to be a proper class again. Not that it ain't proper, but they made warlocks so strong that we have been shafted for doing nothing, that they can't do better.

  8. #808
    I am Murloc! zephid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Could be just that they are making bombs fairly weak compared to actual nuking, which would mean a few nerfs and mastery change for arcane(again). You already won't multi-dot as Fire, because it does so little damage.
    The problem is this: If the bomb is worth using on a single target it's also worth using on multiple targets. The reason for that is that it has to do more damage per global than our filler/main nuke, otherwise we won't use it even on single target fights.

    I guess a way around that problem would be to make the bomb do less damage per global than our main nuke but it applies a debuff to the target which increases the damage we do with our other spells. Kinda like how pyromaniac works for fire.

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by zephid View Post
    The problem is this: If the bomb is worth using on a single target it's also worth using on multiple targets. The reason for that is that it has to do more damage per global than our filler/main nuke, otherwise we won't use it even on single target fights.

    I guess a way around that problem would be to make the bomb do less damage per global than our main nuke but it applies a debuff to the target which increases the damage we do with our other spells. Kinda like how pyromaniac works for fire.
    Either that, or restrict each bomb to a single target and rebalance our cleave/AoE accordingly.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Either that, or restrict each bomb to a single target and rebalance our cleave/AoE accordingly.
    Mage AoE what's that?

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Mage AoE what's that?
    A glorious, wonderful thing, seeing 2mil+ dps on trash packs is fun

  12. #812
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Our AoE is amazing, it's just too complicated compared to other classes.

    If they streamline it then people will complain how mindless mage is.

    That said it is tough to keep up with a warlock, feral, or ret

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Our AoE is amazing, it's just too complicated compared to other classes.

    If they streamline it then people will complain how mindless mage is.

    That said it is tough to keep up with a warlock, feral, or ret
    It will be nice to see how Meteor makes everything.

  14. #814
    Deleted
    Mage AoE doesn't exist as fire sadly. (Combustion spreading isn't AoE really, it's cleaving, on a 1.5 minute cooldown with quite a big build up time unless you want a weak combust)

    Removing multidotting will be interesting. Either they give all specs a pyromania type debuff for bombs (but bigger) and reduce the damage on the dots a lot, or put a forced restriction on them. I don't like both options. The first just feels like you debuff the target in the form of a dot, which feels weak, and the second is very lazy and doesn't feel intuitive.

  15. #815
    I would actually prefer each bomb to be applied to only 1 target and have each do a set amount of damage (sometimes split evenly between X number of targets) and have the secondary effects be different. Similar to what we have but we have a target # limitation. We're always going to be pigeon-holed into a specific bomb on an encounter but this might help alleviate some of our pain.

    For example:

    Living Bomb limit 1 target. Living Bomb applies 275k damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, or target dies, it explodes to deal an additional 90k, split evenly, to the target and 2 others within 10 yds.

    Nether Tempest limit 1 target. Nether tempest applies 250k damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, Nether Tempest will explode, releasing flying tempests which can affect up to 4 random targets within 10 yds for 120k split evenly amongst targets. If there is no cleave available then a single Tempest is released on current target, damaging it for 20k.

    Frost Bomb limit 1 target. Frost Bomb has a static 8 sec CD and a 2 sec cast time (lowered by haste). Frost Bomb explodes after 5 sec (unaffected by haste), dealing 175k to the primary target and an additional 225k to up to 6 targets. (pretty much the same but made the CDs unaffected by haste) (maybe a major glyph could be added to make Frost Bomb an instant cast but increase its CD by 2-3 sec)


    I know these are rough looking but you get the idea. What I want is for the bombs to be single target but have the secondary effect be different. Feel free to tear these apart or elaborate on them. I am in no way a game designer but I feel this suggestion at least has us going in the right direction.

  16. #816
    Deleted
    Mage's not able to multidot - please please Blizzard confirm that you remove them.

    I loved Frost bomb in in T14 (but well you cant really call FB a bomb, its more like a single target spell with delayed effect), I TOTALY HATED THE WHOLE BOMB TIER IN T15!!! And in T16 if feel to mandatory to snapshoot and multidot everything that moves on your screen to be able to do "decent" dps...

    These "things"... these "ambominatios"..., i must admit they felt nice in the beging of MoP introducing a bit diffrent game play, but that was before, but after the 5.2 "buff"... that tier of tallents made feel me feel my mage like a warlock/spriest/boomkin. I dont like throwing dots all over the place. I like the part of the mage that he can concentrate on the prio target and devastate it with high number nukes and shizzles... not its just dot that, dot this, snapshot if possible = top dps meter/compete with the warlock.....
    Total crap. The mage is the single target nuker, not multidoter for crying out loud... arcane spec is called glass cannon for a reason...

    On the thing Mastamage posted - I would suggest better thing i typed recently in another thread here on the forum witch i believe can be very good substitution to the "bomb" fiasko and yeah - Remove them in WoD! I wanna play mage again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deithy View Post
    How about make the bombs like passives? :P

    Arcane Vortex
    X% of the damage done by your Arcane blast is stored on the target. This effect stack. After reaching 5 stacks the vortex will implode dealing 100% of the stored dmg on the main target and Y% of the damage stored split to all other targets within 5 yards radius. Also this effect can be triggered by your Arcane barrage no matter of the stacks.If the effect is trigered by Arcane barage the effect is reversed (it will deal Y% of the dmg stored to the main target and 100% of it to all targets within the radius). Last 10 seconds
    Replace Nether Tempest.

    Hungering cold
    Your frostbolt and frostfire bolts consume the heat of its victum. After reaching 5 stacks the area around the target is purged from any heat and all enemy within 5 yards freeze into a solid cube of ice for 3 seconds. (Wotlk Frost dk spell :P ) Ice Lances cast near the affectet targets cause them to also be damaged by it (not sure how exactly to formulate this its basicaly next Ice lances will hit all the freezed targets) for 50% of its damage. Last 10 seconds
    Replaces Frost bomb.

    next one is a bit unpolished. I dont want it to look exactly like the arcane version. It will be weak on low ilvl and OP with higher ilvl. Unless they change something about fire mechnics
    Firestarter
    X% of the damage of your Fireballs, Inferno Blasts and Pyroblast(maybe?!?) hits are stored on your target (its not like ignite or maybe it is in a way :P ). After reaching 5 stacks your next Pyroblast will get a bonus dmg equal to the damage stored and will cause your target to explode Y% of it split to all other targets within 5 yards radius and knock them down. Inferno blast cast within 3 seconds after the explosion spread the current Ignite or Combustion, witchever is highest, to all targets within 5 yards. Last 10 seconds.
    Replace Fire bomb.
    An these things will be spec specific as seen from the tooltips :P
    P.S. well the fire bomb can stay as it is for fire spec, cause i dont think Firestarter fits very well atall tbh :P
    Last edited by mmoc0c907153ea; 2013-12-17 at 10:14 AM.

  17. #817
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    I would actually prefer each bomb to be applied to only 1 target and have each do a set amount of damage (sometimes split evenly between X number of targets) and have the secondary effects be different. Similar to what we have but we have a target # limitation. We're always going to be pigeon-holed into a specific bomb on an encounter but this might help alleviate some of our pain.

    For example:

    Living Bomb limit 1 target. Living Bomb applies 275k damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, or target dies, it explodes to deal an additional 90k, split evenly, to the target and 2 others within 10 yds.

    Nether Tempest limit 1 target. Nether tempest applies 250k damage over 12 sec. When this effect ends, Nether Tempest will explode, releasing flying tempests which can affect up to 4 random targets within 10 yds for 120k split evenly amongst targets. If there is no cleave available then a single Tempest is released on current target, damaging it for 20k.

    Frost Bomb limit 1 target. Frost Bomb has a static 8 sec CD and a 2 sec cast time (lowered by haste). Frost Bomb explodes after 5 sec (unaffected by haste), dealing 175k to the primary target and an additional 225k to up to 6 targets. (pretty much the same but made the CDs unaffected by haste) (maybe a major glyph could be added to make Frost Bomb an instant cast but increase its CD by 2-3 sec)


    I know these are rough looking but you get the idea. What I want is for the bombs to be single target but have the secondary effect be different. Feel free to tear these apart or elaborate on them. I am in no way a game designer but I feel this suggestion at least has us going in the right direction.
    This is pretty much exactly what I want. Except I'm pushing to have spellfire, frostfire, and spellfrost damage due to lockout reasons. PvPers will surely agree with me that mages have a single-school problem. But it's not just that, there will be more Thok-style fights in WoD, interrupts are going to be a thing going forward from what I understand. Hoping mages begin voicing concern about that -now- and not once they see the next expansion. Quote and date my quote on this :P

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    This is pretty much exactly what I want. Except I'm pushing to have spellfire, frostfire, and spellfrost damage due to lockout reasons. PvPers will surely agree with me that mages have a single-school problem. But it's not just that, there will be more Thok-style fights in WoD, interrupts are going to be a thing going forward from what I understand. Hoping mages begin voicing concern about that -now- and not once they see the next expansion. Quote and date my quote on this :P
    Is there any way for them to stop making us feel pigeon-holed on a bomb? This tier was a little better but only frost felt like it could take advantage of using different bombs on single target and some multi without as much dps loss compared to Arcane or Fire.

  19. #819
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    Is there any way for them to stop making us feel pigeon-holed on a bomb? This tier was a little better but only frost felt like it could take advantage of using different bombs on single target and some multi without as much dps loss compared to Arcane or Fire.
    The original design goal of the tier and the way they are now don't match up at all.

  20. #820
    What was the original design?

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