6.0 Mage Speculation & Paranoia

[Northem]

The simple fact of Amplify Magic rather than some raidwide is that
A: We had it before
B: Plenty of other people have DR cooldowns
C: Nobody has healing taken cooldowns

It's just more interesting to have cooldowns with varying effects rather than giving everyone a different flavour of the same spell, it would seem weird to remove another class's existing spell to replace it with a healing one and Mages were the best fit for adding a healing one given that we had one in the past

A: FALSE. We must not forget that the old [Amplify Magic] was only half of a pair. I refer of course to [Dampen Magic].
By then a mage could benefit from either one or another depending on the situation. In any case the mage always had the option to be benefited by one of the two.
However, as has already been said a thousand times, with the new [Amplify Magic] the mages will benefit only if they are in a group and if there is at least one healer in it, what excludes large part of game situations.

B: TRUE. But that is no excuse to assign to the mages a spell of which cannot benefit themselves and that also do not make sense in its gameplay and theme.
Also sure there are other more appropriate, imaginative and useful options for mages...

C: TRUE. But as I said before, that's no excuse for the mages being who have to bring that utility to the raid.
Any healing class would be delighted to receive a spell to boost THEIR healings.

You are right, "it's just more interesting to have cooldowns with varying effects rather than giving everyone a different flavour of the same spell", which does not mean that can not be developped new and innovative raid utilities different from the existing ones, but at the same time that they benefit to the mages themselves and are relevant to their theme.

For example, an improved [Temporal Shield] that affects all raid would be perfect as a raid utility for mages and at the same time all these problems will go away.

Moreover, I think it would not "seem weird to remove another class's existing spell to replace it with a healing one", as I said earlier any healing class would be delighted to receive a spell to boost THEIR healings as it would be entirely appropriate for them. Regarding mages they can receive any other raid utility of which they can get more out (like a enhanced [Temporal Shield] for all the raid).

[Seneca]

It's not true that they don't care about flavour or nostalgia, they value it less than balance but they don't give it a zero value.

Given two identically balanced options, one of which has a greater level of flavour/nostalgia, they'll pick the flavoursome one.

That is what I meant, balance > flavor but, where it's possible, if flavor doesn't negatively condition it, both points can be respected, but balance has a way higher priority (I agree with you, apart from some shades ->). I think that their choices are dictated by a balacing point of view only, but if they are so lucky (or are able to rework a spell to make it look as flavored as possible) that there are balanced and flavored options at the same time, they take these ones, but it would be just a case and they woudn't have minded to take the balanced unflavored one, if there were no balanced and flavored options, at the same time (imo).

Amplify Magic is that option!

(Minor consideration): Except it is almost totally different from the old implementation. This shows how much they care about flavor, if the balancing part is there pressuring. To fully respect the flavor part, AM should increase magic damage taken too, (and do not consider the "single target" part and the "very long duration" part), otherwise, flavor wise, it should be called Partially Amplified Magic. They made a spell with just one point in common with the old one and gave it the same name, nothing more, the balance part is respected, the flavor part is not fully respected.

This is not just for the sake of arguing (because it's just a minor consideration), but to strenghten the point that they do not care about flavor if the balance is being considered. AM wise, they did what they wanted to and gave a known name and pretended they accomplished the flavor part too. They really didn't. By this logic, Anti-Magic Zone is the old Dampen Magic, because it reduces magic damage taken.

And is much less of a balance headache than a raid-wide temporal shield could end up being (Useless half the time, amazing the other half).

This is what bothers me, the balance headache part. They looked lazy. I know that TS was going to be a bit binary and way harder to balance than AM but it was just an example anyway. Moreover, there are lots of raid utility cds that are, right now, way more binary than TS would have ever been: Mass spell reflect (reflectable spells? OP // not reflectable spells? Useless) Demonic Gateway (high movement fights? OP // low movement fights? Useless) Spirit Shell (high damage moments are coming? OP // otherwise, way less useful) and so on.

Balance is more important but they don't treat things feeling natural as completely unimportant.

Again, I agree, but aren't the spells I listed both "balanced" and natural? (If they are still there, I guess blizzard thinks they are balanced enough.)

(Subjectively speaking, don't you think that "Demonic Gateway" is way more flavored, original, fun and universally useful (efficient even in no raid sitations), than a +20% healing taken (done by a mage too)? Imo, DG respects all of those 4 points at the same time, what do you think?).

Now, I know that mods are taking a break, but you're just being offensive now. If the direction this debate is going is that those who like RoP are people with Stockholme syndrome(Which is a lovely term to sound intelligent when you're just trying to insult the other guy by the way) then maybe we should ask supers to get rid of it instead.

You people are the reason our community is so toxic that we end up without one. I hope you're happy.

Off topic:

I don't think mods are taking a break, because even yesterday they moderated an angry poster, I saw it with my eyes (or the angry poster deleted his own post, but considering it was angry 2 sec before I don't think he did it (I am not even completely sure you can totally delete your own posts anyway)).

About the syndrome, I don't want to defend Pyromelter or something like that, because I don't know if it was his real intention to offend anyone but, to be honest, if you want my pov, considering the other parts of his post too, I don't really think he wanted to offend anyone (he should confirm or deny this).

I think that more than "RoP likers are mentally challenged" he meant "RoP likers just got used with a mediocre spell and are not considering the fact that it would be possible to play with another way more interesting and less tedious spell".

Said that, Pyromelter should clarify what his intentions were, if possible, considering that someone got hurt.

[Deleted]

Concerning your maths Seneca on a 3sec Invo and a 1.5 Sec Rop, Haste slightly alters these values as the derivatife f' of RoP and the derivative g' of Invocation look different. For those that are not mathematically inclined (or young) the derivative describes the speed of change at a point x. This means that the speed at which the cast time of Invocation goes down at 20% Haste differs at the speed that Rune of Power is cast for a value of haste.
An example: Assume 20% Haste for Frost (which is quite low) then Invocation has a cast time of 3/(1+0,2) = 3/1,2 = 2,5 (-0,5 s)
Assuming a 20% Haste for Frost once again, then Rune of Power has a cast time (and GCD cap) of 1,5/(1+0,2) = 1,25sec. (-0,25sec)

When your haste increases then;
Assuming 40% Haste for Frost then Invocation goes to 3/(1+0,4) = 3/1,4 = 2,14 (-0,86s)
Assuming 40% Haste for Frost then Rune of Power goes to 1,5/1,4 = 1,07 (-0,43s)

As both RoP and Invo make you do 15% more damage you see that in all situations you need to do twice more casts, BUT the absolute value of the seconds needed for completing your casts greatly falls. So effectively if you cast two runes of power you lose nothing in comparison to doing one Invocation cast.


But what happens when Meta Gem procs and you manage to clip RoP for example with 80% Haste.
3/1,8 = 1,66sec
1,5/1,8 < 1 where 1s is the minimum GCD.
So, if you manage to clip invocation then you lose 0,66 seconds.
Now casting one additional Rop brings you to 2 seconds and Invocation actually gains over RoP.
So it's far more complicated than losing damage for every 1.5 seconds outside your RoP.
Movement is a huge example.
At low haste levels being forced to cancel an Invocation due to having to move is devestating to your DPS as the absulte number of seconds needed is far greater than the relative one.
Casting 2x Invocation at 2,5 second (cancelled) + 3 seconds makes you lose 6 seconds of damage for a 15% buff.
I hope you can follow my logic.
The value of invocation/Rop is so that the only reason you use it for arcane is the mana regen.
Due to haste messing with amounts of seconds gained or lost (when mistakes are made) it's far harder than saying that 1,5 seconds out of RoP means loss of DPS over invo.
Cheers

[Mastamage]

I get it. You've gone full blown Stockholme. Your captors are now your saviors. You love being in the prison blizzard named "rune of power." Most of us, we don't. I tried arcane once in 5.3 on a celestial court boss. I immediately removed arcane and went back to frost after that, it was that bad. Hitting a dummy was fine.

No need for the insults. You're over-exaggerating it being a prison. Seriously, you really are. See above comments on why people suck with it.

Let me point something out which just makes you look stupid when trying to argue against RoP:

I tried arcane once in 5.3 on a celestial court boss. I immediately removed arcane and went back to frost after that, it was that bad

So, you used it once. On 1 boss. Bosses which require little to no movement. Never touched it again. No experience with it. Yet, you feel like what you're saying has any meaning to those that use it daily? It's amazing that we have no problem using it on high-movement fights in SoO. A Christmas miracle everyone!

Plus, you can't come up with any plausible argument that RoP is in any way, shape or form viable for pvp or solo questing. You can certainly come up with an argument, but it won't be plausible, because RoP is not only crappy, but so incredibly sub-optimal in those environments.

Ffs do you want them to cater to every part of the game, especially without separate spell coefficients? I'd love to hear your "argument" for why RoP is bad, other than its crappy. They did give us dual-spec.....and 2 other talents in that tier. Plus, mana regen is untied from RoP in WoD so your argument is moot regarding solo and pvp.

Or, you could actually believe me, when I tell you I sat in a titan-damned jail cell (aka RoP-type mechanic) for 6 months with absolute mastery in another game, and hated every second of it, and absolutely refuse to ever do that again.

The difference is, in that game, the devs realized what kind of awful crap they were doing to their pyromancers, and they completely got rid of that ability, and everyone was happy, including the non-mages.

This is WoW. But I'm sure you could go back to that game if your hatred is that bad.

[Avikur]

The main problem with RoP is the fact that it will need to be better than IF and MI because both of those require less effort and if RoP gives the same result but is more effort who would pick that?
The question is how much better will it be? Bearing in mind stats are being squished, if it's the difference between say 9.7k and 10k thats fine, I'd sacrifice a small amount of damage for not having to use RoP, however, if IF and MI put you well behind where you would be if you used RoP then thats different, that then makes you feel like you have to use it

[Akraen]

The main problem with RoP is the fact that it will need to be better than IF and MI because both of those require less effort and if RoP gives the same result but is more effort who would pick that?
The question is how much better will it be? Bearing in mind stats are being squished, if it's the difference between say 9.7k and 10k thats fine, I'd sacrifice a small amount of damage for not having to use RoP, however, if IF and MI put you well behind where you would be if you used RoP then thats different, that then makes you feel like you have to use it

*points at Incanter's Ward*

Actually, for frost & fire *points at Rune of Power*

While technically not the "same" because of cast times, positioning, and other minor details-- it's the same idea. I think it's presumptuous and incorrect to assume Blizzard would not allow a greater challenge to equal the same or similar gain. Illogical as it may be, it's been happening since vanilla.

[Seneca]

Concerning your maths Seneca on a 3sec Invo and a 1.5 Sec Rop, Haste slightly alters these values as the derivatife f' of RoP and the derivative g' of Invocation look different. For those that are not mathematically inclined (or young) the derivative describes the speed of change at a point x. This means that the speed at which the cast time of Invocation goes down at 20% Haste differs at the speed that Rune of Power is cast for a value of haste.
An example: Assume 20% Haste for Frost (which is quite low) then Invocation has a cast time of 3/(1+0,2) = 3/1,2 = 2,5 (-0,5 s)
Assuming a 20% Haste for Frost once again, then Rune of Power has a cast time (and GCD cap) of 1,5/(1+0,2) = 1,25sec. (-0,25sec)

When your haste increases then;
Assuming 40% Haste for Frost then Invocation goes to 3/(1+0,4) = 3/1,4 = 2,14 (-0,86s)
Assuming 40% Haste for Frost then Rune of Power goes to 1,5/1,4 = 1,07 (-0,43s)

As both RoP and Invo make you do 15% more damage you see that in all situations you need to do twice more casts, BUT the absolute value of the seconds needed for completing your casts greatly falls. So effectively if you cast two runes of power you lose nothing in comparison to doing one Invocation cast.


But what happens when Meta Gem procs and you manage to clip RoP for example with 80% Haste.
3/1,8 = 1,66sec
1,5/1,8 < 1 where 1s is the minimum GCD.
So, if you manage to clip invocation then you lose 0,66 seconds.
Now casting one additional Rop brings you to 2 seconds and Invocation actually gains over RoP.
So it's far more complicated than losing damage for every 1.5 seconds outside your RoP.
Movement is a huge example.
At low haste levels being forced to cancel an Invocation due to having to move is devestating to your DPS as the absulte number of seconds needed is far greater than the relative one.
Casting 2x Invocation at 2,5 second (cancelled) + 3 seconds makes you lose 6 seconds of damage for a 15% buff.
I hope you can follow my logic.
The value of invocation/Rop is so that the only reason you use it for arcane is the mana regen.
Due to haste messing with amounts of seconds gained or lost (when mistakes are made) it's far harder than saying that 1,5 seconds out of RoP means loss of DPS over invo.
Cheers

Thank you, good job. I follow your logic. I have a question.

Generally speaking, without considering random variables or extreme cases happening, can we say that 95%+ of the time you have to stay in RoP or your damage is going to be lower and lower, in comparison to Invocation?

For example:
0% haste = 3sec Invocation and 1.5sec RoP = 95% uptime for RoP to be worth.
50% haste = 2sec Invocation and 1sec RoP = 96,66% uptime for RoP to be worth.

Is that right? Ofc, generally speaking, without considering extreme edge cases like: you have 0% haste and your Invocation has a cast time of 3sec, you cast for 2,99sec, then you interrupt your cast, so you lose 2,99 sec where as RoP you didn't lose anthing.

If my math is right, and, without considering random variables happening, you need 95%+ uptime (it goes higher based on haste). How can't it be a huge loss to use RoP (even if you work way harder) in everything no raid related? Probably there's a flaw in my math, tell me where it is, if you don't mind ofc :P.

Edit: I fixed some numbers to make them more "realistic".

[Frost1129]

Thank you, good job. I follow your logic. I have a question.

Generally speaking, without considering random variables or extreme cases happening, can we say that 95%+ of the time you have to stay in RoP or your damage is going to be lower and lower, in comparison to Invocation?

For example:
0% haste = 3sec Invocation and 1.5sec RoP = 95% uptime for RoP to be worth.
50% haste = 2sec Invocation and 1sec RoP = 96,66% uptime for RoP to be worth.

Is that right? Ofc, generally speaking, without considering extreme edge cases like: you have 0% haste and your Invocation has a cast time of 3sec, you cast for 2,99sec, then you interrupt your cast, so you lose 2,99 sec where as RoP you didn't lose anthing.

If my math is right, and, without considering random variables happening, you need 95%+ uptime (it goes higher based on haste). How can't it be a huge loss to use RoP (even if you work way harder) in everything no raid related? Probably there's a flaw in my math, tell me where it is, if you don't mind ofc :P.

Edit: I fixed some numbers to make them more "realistic".

Yes. This is why no Fire/Frost mages takes RoP over Invo. The required uptimes on RoP to take advantage of it's shorter cast are so high that it's almost always better to take Invo in a real raid environment. The only reason Arcane mages take it is because they are forced to due to the way it regens mana, which Fire/Frost mages just don't care about. (Which kind of does a nice job of showing how few people like RoP even though it's mathematically superior :P)

[Seneca]

Yes. This is why no Fire/Frost mages takes RoP over Invo. The required uptimes on RoP to take advantage of it's shorter cast are so high that it's almost always better to take Invo in a real raid environment. The only reason Arcane mages take it is because they are forced to due to the way it regens mana, which Fire/Frost mages just don't care about. (Which kind of does a nice job of showing how few people like RoP even though it's mathematically superior :P)

I agree, I knew it, in fact, this is is why I don't really get three things:

1) How can people say (no shots fired) you can use RoP in no - raid situations if you need 95-96,66% uptime based on your haste? (And it is also bad in some/lots of raid situations (doesn't matter the exact number), just to make the situation worse).
2) If only someone with 95%+ uptime can take advantage of it, why there are "lots of" mages defending it? I mean, do they belong to the top 50 mages in the world so they care about a talent which can make them shine in raids? Otherwise, I don't get why people claims RoP has to stay because has an high skill cap, if they do not reach that skill cap to begin with. It's like if I fight for birds right to fly where they want, even if I cannot fly (not considering moral aspects and something like that ofc).
3) If RoP is worth only when used by 50 mages in the world in x/14 raid boss fights, excluding all the other mages in the world, the y/14 raid boss fights remaining and everything no - raid related, why RoP deserves a talent slot?

Related note: We are not even considering the fun aspect, but the balance aspect alone and, imo, it is already enough to not justify the presence of RoP (then, if we want to add the fun aspect of it too, the situation is even way worse, but focus on my three points, ignore this right now).

[Deleted]

I don't really know what Pyromelter's original intentions were, but I frankly find it a bit ridiculous to use an actual, psychological trauma to describe people who use a talent in a game just because their opinion is different. Just because a sentence doesn't contain swearing at people does not mean it's not insulting.

If this debate gets to the point that people are being insulted like this then there are bigger problems around.

[Frost1129]

I don't really know what Pyromelter's original intentions were, but I frankly find it a bit ridiculous to use an actual, psychological trauma to describe people who use a talent in a game just because their opinion is different. Just because a sentence doesn't contain swearing at people does not mean it's not insulting.

If this debate gets to the point that people are being insulted like this then there are bigger problems around.

You're taking one persons personal attack and generalizing it to the rest of us discussing RoP, conveniently ignoring everyone else, and saying the discussing is bad.

I also doubt he was seriously saying you had some some mental trauma. Most likely using the phenomenon to make a point.

1) How can people say (no shots fired) you can use RoP in no - raid situations if you need 95-96,66% uptime based on your haste? (And it is also bad in some/lots of raid situations (doesn't matter the exact number), just to make the situation worse).
2) If only someone with 95%+ uptime can take advantage of it, why there are "lots of" mages defending it? I mean, do they belong to the top 50 mages in the world so they care about a talent which can make them shine in raids? Otherwise, I don't get why people claims RoP has to stay because has an high skill cap, if they do not reach that skill cap to begin with. It's like if I fight for birds right to fly where they want, even if I cannot fly (not considering moral aspects and something like that ofc).
3) If RoP is worth only when used by 50 mages in the world in x/14 raid boss fights, excluding all the other mages in the world, the y/14 raid boss fights remaining and everything no - raid related, why RoP deserves a talent slot?

Related note: We are not even considering the fun aspect, but the balance aspect alone and, imo, it is already enough to not justify the presence of RoP (then, if we want to add the fun aspect of it too, the situation is even way worse, but focus on my three points, ignore this right now).

No idea. I guess that's why the only thing pro-RoP have is to say we're being insulting or not playing well enough. Heh.

(to be fair though, that 95/96% uptime only exists because of Invo. It could be different in WoD)

Mages in the top 100 dont even have that kind of uptime though.

[Sarm]

Doesn't stop people from feeling like shit players if they don't have that uptime, though. Since the whole point of the entire tier is that you want to have the benefits up as often as possible, you're going to be accustomed to your damage (or regen if you're arcane, I guess) when you're using the talents, and so that becomes normal. It's only when you're out of the rune, or lacking the Invo buff, or specced into Incanter's Ward period, that you're not doing the damage you "should" be doing so it just ends up being an annoying reminder that you're Doing It Wrong whenever the buff is down, or you're out of the rune.

I've heard multiple times that since you're only balanced around average uptime with them, and that higher than average uptime with them is how you're supposed to do more damage than you're balanced around, but who's really going to notice that? It's only a couple % difference AVERAGED out over fights. No normal player is going to ever notice that because you'd have to be tracking your uptime and casting and all of that stuff across multiple logged reports, and if you're the kind of player who's doing that, then you're probably already doing the same thing for every other gimmick that goes on in a fight and rune or invo's just one added thing on top of it.

I already know that if I were to use rune perfectly (and I know I wouldn't be able to), I'd never actually notice a real benefit from it. It's an invisible carrot along with a big whopping stick.

[mrgreenthump]

So as it never made a lot of sense to have two 6.0 threads open at the same time and just not being nice in general in this thread of late. The time has come to lock this thread. Now this doesn't mean you can now go to the other thread and just randomly spam it as well. There clearly is a "slow" period atm before we get closed beta, but that doesn't mean you have to post when you have nothing to contribute. Sure we are all emotional about this game and don't all agree that some talents should be saved, but Blizzard has made their decision on that, you posting here won't affect that at all. If you want to impact Blizzards decision making, use their forums or twitter.. Here we are just fans of the game who want to have a friendly conversation about the game we are passionate about and help people when they need it.


Thread Closed.