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  1. #761
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    And that's a one-of event. Which is why it's much better to look at overall rankings, than it is to look at a single boss fight. Overall, counting all his ranks together, your tank is rank 44. So you are correct - you can get a stroke of luck on an encounter and get a great rank. But unless you do so for EVERY rank, people that are more consistently better, will be ranking higher.
    I disagree in part. Some people can't rank on many bosses because of the strategy. E.g. Immerseus, where some people just stay on the boss (no AoE) and heal in most split-phases to help out healers. Or Shaman / Nazgrim / Malkorok, doing offtank- and soak-stuff. Or amount of cleave possible (e.g. protectors, tanking together or not, or spoils - mantid or mogu side). Add to the different strategies, that the combatlog on some bosses (e.g. Norushen, Spoils) has some problems with range / different phases. So just looking at overall rankings can be skewed.

    And, because you were not sure: A guild on our server killed Garrosh 25m hc last week iirc (Advance - Azshara EU), raiding 19 hours/week - though they have stocked up the first week in this tier, raiding about 30 for that week.

    Though I think the discussion goes a bit offtopic here - hope that's not a problem, since the question in the OP was already answered.
    Last edited by mmoc48c29aaf6e; 2013-11-11 at 05:22 PM.

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    It needs to check whether theres whoring in the logs or not, imo. If it doesnt then in my eyes WoL rankings are just e-peen whoring meters
    I'd personally love if it did that as I always end up much lower than I'd like to on bosses that requires specific tasks to be done (kicking turtles and MD'ing bats, painting celestials for example). It's also quite impossible.

    In the end, enough has probably been said I guess. I may put more emphasis on output than some people think is proper, but in my experience, performance is much easier to force people to do than good damage. And getting ranked on the vast majority of fights, at least as a hunter last tier, was far easier than people are making it out to be ("have to stand in fire to get output, have to ignore all mechanics and tunnel" and the likes). I haven't been playing DPS this tier, though, as we're lacking a disc priest, but I see far less "scumbag" chances in SoO than I ever did in ToT. It may also be because hunters generally are very bad at scumbagging that I have this point of view, though, I won't deny that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forsta View Post
    I disagree in part. Some people can't rank on many bosses because of the strategy. E.g. Immerseus, where some people just stay on the boss (no AoE) and heal in most split-phases to help out healers. Or Shaman / Nazgrim / Maloriak, doing offtank- and soak-stuff. Or amount of cleave possible (e.g. protectors, tanking together or not, or spoils - mantid or mogu side). Add to the different strategies, that the combatlog on some bosses (e.g. Norushen, Spoils) has some problems with range / different phases. So just looking at overall rankings can be skewed.

    And, because you were not sure: A guild on our server killed Garrosh 25m hc last week iirc (Advance - Azshara EU), raiding 19 hours/week - though they have stocked up the first week in this tier, raiding about 30 for that week.

    Though I think the discussion goes a bit offtopic here - hope that's not a problem, since the question in the OP was already answered.
    Do you mean Malkorok rather than maloriak? both contains adds and such, so not 100% sure, but gonna assume Malkorok .
    Either way, I don't think that the dps loss you get from doing the encounters would really amount to anything, and the danger you put your raid in is a real, tangible thing. But that's what makes a player good, I guess - knowing to time your movement for getting to puddles on Malkorok so that you won't lose DPS uptime. Not sure what you mean with shamans or nazgrim. Not much offtanking going on there for DPS, atleast not how we do it :/.

    But you do have to remember that EVERYONE has the issues with combatlogs and ranges, different phases etc - strategies may also vary, but the chance that the strategy will be so wildly different that a great player won't still be getting a top 20 log is extremely unlikely, atleast as far as I have seen. It's much more about consistency than it is about a one-shot wonder.

    That being said, there will never be a truly accurate way of measuring someone's "skill", nor who is "the best". The closest we can get ATM is rankings, and as people keep pointing out, they can be skewered.

    And for Advance, fair enough :d. I only checked the last 10 kills, advance was 25 of 40, so didn't get that far. Quite impressive indeed, even with the early week extensions (seems to be 6 for first week, 5 for second, then down to 4 if my rusty german is correct) .

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    And that's a one-of event. Which is why it's much better to look at overall rankings, than it is to look at a single boss fight. Overall, counting all his ranks together, your tank is rank 44. So you are correct - you can get a stroke of luck on an encounter and get a great rank. But unless you do so for EVERY rank, people that are more consistently better, will be ranking higher.
    This isnt a one-time event, when you look over all heroic raids going on events like this happen often and can lead to completely rediculous numbers that cannot be obtained when properly executing a fight.

    Take a boss like Tortos, our unholy dk had the top 1 heroic 25man tortos rank for months. You know why? Because we solo tanked the bats with a monk tank and he got to be on them for the whole fight. His dps was completely pointless, but because I was in a good mood I let him do so. Is he the sickest dk in the world because he pulled 800k+ dps in that fight? Is a unholy dk that plays in a guild that doesnt kite the bats and just normally dpses tortos any worse? Ofcourse not. Gimmicks is what make you rank 1, not being the best player in the world.

    Perhaps when we're late in the gearing cycle and everyone's BiS and the first 200 or so guilds have killed Garrosh. Right now, it's very much doable .
    And these ranks late in the gearins cycle are all that matter going by your view, because these arnt influenced by gear advantages. Hell, I'm in a mediocre 8/14 heroic guild and I've an higher ilvl then Daewyn from Paragon. Untill late in a patch cycle you cant really judge anyone by their ranks.

    Anyway to end this discussion. Looking back on fights like Heroic Garrosh, Heroic Lei Shen, Heroic Lich King and Heroic Ragnaross, that were extremely sick tight dps checks, and how Paragon handled these fights its safe to assume that they as a team had the best dps team in the world. Everyone remembers the sick nerdrages going on as lich king enraged and they spammed usso tauna, usso taunta, THATS how tight it was. They killed that boss over 2 weeks before For the Horde did, and they needed another 5% damage buff to do so. Acting like only 1 of their dps is exceptional and the rest is average makes no sense. Anyone can form a guild with 1 exceptional and 9 average players, yet nobody has managed to do so and come even close to Paragon's level. So obviously every single one of them are exceptional players. You cannot judge how good a player is based on his dps done on a farm boss. The only thing you can judge a player on is on what he manages to ACHIEVE in this game during progression. If he achieves the top, hes a top player, simple. You cannot carry in a world first guild, especially in 10 man.

  4. #764
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    especially in 10 man.
    Why do you add that in the end? Can't carry anyone in a world first guild at all, nomatter 25 or 10.

    Can't wait for 20m so we get rid off people like you.

  5. #765
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Do you mean Malkorok rather than maloriak? both contains adds and such, so not 100% sure, but gonna assume Malkorok .
    Yes, I meant Malkorok, sorry. I'll edit it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Either way, I don't think that the dps loss you get from doing the encounters would really amount to anything, and the danger you put your raid in is a real, tangible thing. But that's what makes a player good, I guess - knowing to time your movement for getting to puddles on Malkorok so that you won't lose DPS uptime. Not sure what you mean with shamans or nazgrim. Not much offtanking going on there for DPS, atleast not how we do it :/.

    But you do have to remember that EVERYONE has the issues with combatlogs and ranges, different phases etc - strategies may also vary, but the chance that the strategy will be so wildly different that a great player won't still be getting a top 20 log is extremely unlikely, atleast as far as I have seen. It's much more about consistency than it is about a one-shot wonder.

    That being said, there will never be a truly accurate way of measuring someone's "skill", nor who is "the best". The closest we can get ATM is rankings, and as people keep pointing out, they can be skewered.
    For the different bosses, I only used my personal experience as examples. I usually don't get high logs (casual), but I can see very big discrepancies of what I do and what top players do depending on bosses. Not only for me, but for many different logs I look at. A bit more in depth to some examples:
    Immerseus - TeB (dmg and heal CD usage) only in puddle phases, because they're usually more problematic. Heal since the second one, depending on the spawns. No aoe - we have enough people that go all out on the adds, I see no reason why I should do that too.
    Protectors - We usually only tank them together for about a third of the fight. When seeing killvideos from other guilds, many of them try to keep them together as often as possible, which is a huge boost in dps (especially for monk with RJW).
    Shaman / Nazgrim / Malkorok - First I tank, but usually the really high ranks are reserved to the Kardris (or so) tank, because he can cleave a lot in the green adds and gets the most damage over the whole fight > the most vengeance. Second, I tank the adds - which means no vengeance, high ranks are usually reserved for boss tanks. Third, I run in circles and take orbs (though we haven't really tried that one yet, only looked at the fight for an hour or so). I think that destiny is shared by many dds with a tank spec.
    Klaxxi - I refuse to cleave on that boss. It's just stupid, except one wants to get the heal to another target. But looking at the high logs, there are almost only people cleaving there - at least at my class / spec.
    Garrosh - Kiting parts of p2 and the whole p3.
    Those are some examples. Haven't had the motivation to write something to every boss.
    The point is: Taking overall logs as a measurement of skill can be dangerous (as you point out), because strategies and especially the distribution to different roles can vary a lot. And with roles I don't mean tank / heal / dd, but within each one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    And for Advance, fair enough :d. I only checked the last 10 kills, advance was 25 of 40, so didn't get that far. Quite impressive indeed, even with the early week extensions (seems to be 6 for first week, 5 for second, then down to 4 if my rusty german is correct) .
    Some months ago, one of our members left because he wanted to do more progress. He joined there, and was kicked after the first week from the raidpool. I had a good laugh.
    Last edited by mmoc48c29aaf6e; 2013-11-11 at 05:24 PM.

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    This isnt a one-time event, when you look over all heroic raids going on events like this happen often and can lead to completely rediculous numbers that cannot be obtained when properly executing a fight.

    Take a boss like Tortos, our unholy dk had the top 1 heroic 25man tortos rank for months. You know why? Because we solo tanked the bats with a monk tank and he got to be on them for the whole fight. His dps was completely pointless, but because I was in a good mood I let him do so. Is he the sickest dk in the world because he pulled 800k+ dps in that fight? Is a unholy dk that plays in a guild that doesnt kite the bats and just normally dpses tortos any worse? Ofcourse not. Gimmicks is what make you rank 1, not being the best player in the world.
    What I ment with a "one time event" is that while a player might be able to get a great rank due to a stroke of luck on a specific boss (in your two examples, Sha or Tortos), it doesn't really matter at all in the big picture. Only if you view one specific fight will that matter, but if you view EVERY fight instead, one outlier will not be enough to show off great performance.
    My entire point is that consistency is key. If a person is rank 1 on one encounter, but not even ranked on the remaining, you can assume that the player had something specific done to aquire that rank, be it of his own accord or by accident. If a player is ranked in top 20 on every fight, you can assume the guy consistently performs to the very max of his class abilities, on every fight in every scenario.



    And these ranks late in the gearins cycle are all that matter going by your view, because these arnt influenced by gear advantages. Hell, I'm in a mediocre 8/14 heroic guild and I've an higher ilvl then Daewyn from Paragon. Untill late in a patch cycle you cant really judge anyone by their ranks.
    You're also 25 man vs 10 man, so yea, your gear would be better.
    And I think the output matters more during progress than during farm personally, because that's when it's needed, but sadly, the secrecy behind top guilds kind of puts a lid on analyzing anything. Screw you, hidden logs <.<.


    Anyway to end this discussion. Looking back on fights like Heroic Garrosh, Heroic Lei Shen, Heroic Lich King and Heroic Ragnaross, that were extremely sick tight dps checks, and how Paragon handled these fights its safe to assume that they as a team had the best dps team in the world. Everyone remembers the sick nerdrages going on as lich king enraged and they spammed usso tauna, usso taunta, THATS how tight it was. They killed that boss over 2 weeks before For the Horde did, and they needed another 5% damage buff to do so. Acting like only 1 of their dps is exceptional and the rest is average makes no sense. Anyone can form a guild with 1 exceptional and 9 average players, yet nobody has managed to do so and come even close to Paragon's level. So obviously every single one of them are exceptional players. You cannot judge how good a player is based on his dps done on a farm boss. The only thing you can judge a player on is on what he manages to ACHIEVE in this game during progression. If he achieves the top, hes a top player, simple. You cannot carry in a world first guild, especially in 10 man.
    I very much agree that Paragon probably had the strongest DPS during end-WOTLK/Cata (as witnessed by their utter dominance on those end-boss fights), and they were by far stronger than anyone else. I just don't think they have the same edge anymore. Their kills used to be weeks ahead of the competition, now they're barely a reset, and are getting beat overall by Method. If it's other guilds that have increased in skill, or them who have dwindled, I don't know for sure, but they are not as "dominating" as they once were. Lich king and Ragnaros was a loooong time ago .

    And as for acting as if one of their dps is exceptional and the rest are average is purely off of the numbers provided by the logs =P. But ah well, as you say yourself, enough has been said. I guess people either agree or disagree.
    I do have to say, though, that a giant part of being world first is dedicating incredible amounts of raid hours. Don't ever forget that. The fact that they are achieving what they are is part due to that. Cut them down to a more sane 5 night a week/20 hrs a week schedule, and they'd probably still do well, but there's no way they'd be in the top 10.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-11-11 at 05:20 PM.

  7. #767
    Just as a side note and not really trying to offend anyone in particular but a whole lot of guilds nowadays got very good at downplaying their raiding schedule.

  8. #768
    Deleted
    I actually thought ur arguments weren't that bad. But now when you mentioned that Paragon wouldn't even be in top 10 if they didn't raid a lot, you just proved that you are an obvious troll.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    Just as a side note and not really trying to offend anyone in particular but a whole lot of guilds nowadays got very good at downplaying their raiding schedule.
    They have indeed =P. Last time I touched on that subject, people got maaaad though .

    Quote Originally Posted by anuhk View Post
    I actually thought ur arguments weren't that bad. But now when you mentioned that Paragon wouldn't even be in top 10 if they didn't raid a lot, you just proved that you are an obvious troll.
    Not exactly sure who's the troll here =P. I doubt you'd find anyone that disagrees that cutting their effective raiding hours by 80% wouldn't propel them way out of the top end. I know people in both the rank 7 and 9 guilds and they were "nolifing" it up, too, for the majority of the tier. Not to the extent of doing 80 hrs a week, mind, but still at a "healthy" +40.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I do have to say, though, that a giant part of being world first is dedicating incredible amounts of raid hours. Don't ever forget that. The fact that they are achieving what they are is part due to that. Cut them down to a more sane 5 night a week/20 hrs a week schedule, and they'd probably still do well, but there's no way they'd be in the top 10.
    This is true for doing anything world first.

    Someone wont win any olympic gold medal without dedicating his life to it. Someone wont win an oscar without dedicating his life to it. Someone wont wint be nobel price without dedicating his life to it. Being the best in the world at something OBVIOUSLY takes dedication and time. This is true for anything in life. I'm not sure what your trying to prove here? That you could beat Paragon if you just dedicated enough time to it? That you could run the 100 meters as fast as Usane Bolt if you just practiced enough and dedicated enough time to it?

  11. #771
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    is basicly because I'm sick and tired of fanboys who can't comprehend how the game actually works worship and suck up to guilds like Paragon =P.
    But hey, just to make sure everyone knows exactly what I mean:
    They're great players, they work well together as a team, and they obviously knows how to raid. They're among the best of their classes (some of them), but only verdisha falls within the top 10. The rest are "just" good.
    Didn't read the whole discussion so sorry if this has been said already. Reading your posts and looking at your sig indicates to me that you really never raided at the very cutting edge. Just bringing dps parses into the discussion and drawing conclusions on the performance of those players is just a sign you should probably raid 2 weeks with a real top guild during progression to realize what seperates good from great dps. And it's certainly not top parses.

    There isn't even a question if those players are able to execute a pefect rotation at that level. What seperates them is what I call smart play, and that includes a myriad of little things, things most players don't even think about and those things have nothing to do with dps output. It's about staying alive, keeping others alive and improvising on the spot.

    I raided #5-#10 25 world for years and what held us back from ranking higher was not time invested or anything like that it was players who would rank great but had no clue or ability to bring anything else to the table, didn't adapt to unforseen events in a bossfight, forgot about half their abilities which had nothing to to with numbers and made wrong decisions when Plan A failed. Really smart players a VERY hard to find, and this is what Paragon i.e. always seperated from most other guilds. They had and have those in abundance, people who react right in crucial situations, see the whole picture of a fight, people who understand all parts of the fight in detail and not just their 5 button rotation.

    Those people interestingly tend to be not interested at all in WoL ranks.

  12. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I'm also not 100% sure what the fact that we have a 5day/18hr raid week has to do with us not having completed the tier yet. Kill should hopefully come tonight or tomorrow, but to my knowledge, no guild with less than a 20 hr schedule has gotten a garrosh kill in 25 man as of yet. Shouldn't really be so surprising to you, that considered =P.
    There are several. I am counting 5 right now, that finished under top 20 world 25 man that raid 5 days/20-22hours a week. A 20 hour raid schedule is becoming a common thing with guilds in the top 50. There are 3-4 day (15 hour) guilds that have already cleared SoO on heroic. You only have 10 or so guilds that raid over 6 days a week, and some of those guilds actually got beat by 4-5 day guilds.
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  13. #773
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by anuhk View Post
    Why do you add that in the end? Can't carry anyone in a world first guild at all, nomatter 25 or 10.

    Can't wait for 20m so we get rid off people like you.
    he raids 25 man, something a cursory reading of what i he has said revealed to you.
    i saw a HC Garrosh first kill where 8 people died.
    sure i would not in any way shape or form perform better, but 8 people died but when you are playing in lol 25 man mode (not serious here) that doesn't matter.
    ED
    since people fail to see my point, not your fault i could have been clearer, 1 person in a 10 man equals 10% in a 25 its 4%, I.E its easier to carry 4% than 10%, not that anyone is being carried in the top end of raiding but since 10 is greater than 4 it is easier to do so in 25.
    Last edited by mmocfd561176b9; 2013-11-11 at 06:30 PM.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    This is true for doing anything world first.

    Someone wont win any olympic gold medal without dedicating his life to it. Someone wont win an oscar without dedicating his life to it. Someone wont wint be nobel price without dedicating his life to it. Being the best in the world at something OBVIOUSLY takes dedication and time. This is true for anything in life. I'm not sure what your trying to prove here? That you could beat Paragon if you just dedicated enough time to it? That you could run the 100 meters as fast as Usane Bolt if you just practiced enough and dedicated enough time to it?
    I don't think an usain bolt metaphor works very well here. That implies that getting to the level of someone to be able to beat someone else requires training, rather than time. Heck, I can't think of any sports metaphor that would accurately describe it. Basicly what I mean is, if something requires 200 hours to do, then obviously the guys able to dedicate 80 hours a week will be done far quicker than the guys able to dedicate 40, 20, 10 and so forth. It's part of being highly ranked, and no guild, no matter the skill, can substitute the amount of raid hours for "pure skill" to maintain their ranking - there simply isn't a big enough difference between them =P.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palmz View Post
    There are several. I am counting 5 right now, that finished under top 20 world 25 man that raid 5 days/20-22hours a week. A 20 hour raid schedule is becoming a common thing with guilds in the top 50. There are 3-4 day (15 hour) guilds that have already cleared SoO on heroic. You only have 10 or so guilds that raid over 6 days a week, and some of those guilds actually got beat by 4-5 day guilds.
    now remove all of them that "say" they raid 5 days a week, but in reality add a 6th day or extends a few hours / start early every night. You're down to none :/.

    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    he raids 25 man, something a cursory reading of what i he has said revealed to you.
    i saw a HC Garrosh first kill where 8 people died.
    sure i would not in any way shape or form perform better, but 8 people died but when you are playing in lol 25 man mode (not serious here) that doesn't matter.
    9 people died in paragon's garrosh kill. Lol 10 man can be solo'd xdxdxd.
    We have no context for when or how those people died in that 25 man, need to add that if you're going to use it as an example =P.
    (and yes, I know full well that the boss was at 1% when the 9 people died on paragon's kill, but that's kind of the point :P).

    Quote Originally Posted by Crawler24 View Post
    Didn't read the whole discussion so sorry if this has been said already. Reading your posts and looking at your sig indicates to me that you really never raided at the very cutting edge. Just bringing dps parses into the discussion and drawing conclusions on the performance of those players is just a sign you should probably raid 2 weeks with a real top guild during progression to realize what seperates good from great dps. And it's certainly not top parses.

    There isn't even a question if those players are able to execute a pefect rotation at that level. What seperates them is what I call smart play, and that includes a myriad of little things, things most players don't even think about and those things have nothing to do with dps output. It's about staying alive, keeping others alive and improvising on the spot.

    I raided #5-#10 25 world for years and what held us back from ranking higher was not time invested or anything like that it was players who would rank great but had no clue or ability to bring anything else to the table, didn't adapt to unforseen events in a bossfight, forgot about half their abilities which had nothing to to with numbers and made wrong decisions when Plan A failed. Really smart players a VERY hard to find, and this is what Paragon i.e. always seperated from most other guilds. They had and have those in abundance, people who react right in crucial situations, see the whole picture of a fight, people who understand all parts of the fight in detail and not just their 5 button rotation.

    Those people interestingly tend to be not interested at all in WoL ranks.
    I haven't no, but maybe someday =P? I doubt I'd find it hard to be part of such an enviroment. There is a clear difference between some raiders skills in terms of reaction to specific events or things going wrong, and if you can field an entire dreamteam of those players, then yea, you've got a dreamteam. That said, I find it hard to believe that there are a much bigger concentration of those players in the top end, atleast in 25 man. Perhaps in 10 man? Either way, in 25, a big criteria is always both output + avialability (spell?). Meeting those two (being great at dps/healing, having the time to spend on progress) AND being a smart thinker is the sacred trifecter.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-11-11 at 06:27 PM.

  15. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmz View Post
    there are several. I am counting 5 right now, that finished under top 20 world 25 man that raid 5 days/20-22hours a week. A 20 hour raid schedule is becoming a common thing with guilds in the top 50. There are 3-4 day (15 hour) guilds that have already cleared soo on heroic. You only have 10 or so guilds that raid over 6 days a week, and some of those guilds actually got beat by 4-5 day guilds.
    oh hai palmz

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    now remove all of them that "say" they raid 5 days a week, but in reality add a 6th day or extends a few hours / start early every night. You're down to none :/.
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    Last edited by Conjor; 2013-11-11 at 06:21 PM.

  16. #776
    Deleted
    8 people in 25 = 2.7~ people in 10

    I've seen Garrosh 10 kills with 3 people dead, what's your point?

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I don't think an usain bolt metaphor works very well here. That implies that getting to the level of someone to be able to beat someone else requires training, rather than time. Heck, I can't think of any sports metaphor that would accurately describe it. Basicly what I mean is, if something requires 200 hours to do, then obviously the guys able to dedicate 80 hours a week will be done far quicker than the guys able to dedicate 40, 20, 10 and so forth. It's part of being highly ranked, and no guild, no matter the skill, can substitute the amount of raid hours for "pure skill" to maintain their ranking - there simply isn't a big enough difference between them =P.
    Being a good raider in wow requires training aswell. If you believe anyone can start playing wow during a patch release and raid top-end that week by just spending time raiding your delusional. Becoming a veteran raider that knows all ins and outs of this game requires quite some training. You cant say 'I can run the 100 meters in 20 seconds while training only 1 hour per week and Usane Bolt requires 6 hours training per day to run in 10 seconds, im obviously the best sprinter here'. No, obviously Usane Bolt is the better sprinter here. And obviously someone playing in paragon is the better player aswell, no matter how much time he puts into it, that IS being a better player, being able to dedicate that time needed in it to become the best, while having enough talent to do so.
    Last edited by willemh; 2013-11-11 at 06:30 PM.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Being a good raider in wow requires training aswell. If you believe anyone can start playing wow during a patch release and raid top-end that week by just spending time raiding your delusional. Becoming a veteran raider that knows all ins and outs of this game requires quite some training. You cant say 'I can run the 100 meters in 20 seconds while training only 1 hour per week and Usane Bolt requires 6 hours training per day to run in 10 seconds, im obviously the best sprinter here'. No, obviously Usane Bolt is the better sprinter here. And obviously someone playing in paragon is the better player aswell, no matter how much time he puts into it, that IS being a better player, being able to dedicate that time needed in it to become the best, while having enough talent to do so.
    Yes, but you have to assume that their competition here are just as veteran as they are. It's not a "from scratch" - every guild in the top 100 is filled with experienced raiders who knows the in and outs. Some just spends more, some spends less - thats the entire issue =P.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Yes, but you have to assume that their competition here are just as veteran as they are. It's not a "from scratch" - every guild in the top 100 is filled with experienced raiders who knows the in and outs. Some just spends more, some spends less - thats the entire issue =P.
    You think that in the whole human populations there arnt any people who could run as fast as Usane Bolt either if they put in enough time? Those in the top are dedicated to a goal and deserve all the credit there is, not some grumpy guy saying 'I could do the same if I would just spend time'. That makes no sense.

  20. #780
    Great change for competitive PvE. Brings a little bit of prestige back into raiding. Might actually consider doing some of it after a few expansion break.

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