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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    yeah it will only be about 550% weapon damage attack if it were physical. Tiny buff guys. Nothing to see here
    If.


    ahoy thine ten characters worth of letters be .

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    If.


    ahoy thine ten characters worth of letters be .
    If is right

    In T15 with 55k weapon damage I had 800K Tvs and like lowish 40% mastery HoL

    NOW I have 77k weapon damage and hit 400k TVs and have a 80% mastery levels meaning HoL hits harder then the strike. Boy wouldn't it be great If Holy TV was t he FINAL bonus? Be doing 1.2 mil tv and 1.5 mil HoLs per crit.

  3. #203
    High Overlord
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    I quit ret back in may after two years of raiding with it. I for one am happy to see this holy TV as it brings back ret's sustained damage, DP's usefulness and more reliance on HP management. If these talents remain, i will be happy to return to my ret once again!

  4. #204
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    I'd like to see more changes to the other talents. As it is currently, a lot of the Tier's are straight forward for certain specs. The only exception is T75 and T90 where a lot of it is personal choice. Otherwise there's no real choice for the other Tiers, or there doesn't seem to be any good choices at all. I would definitely remove Pursuit of Justice and Hand of Purity. Those two just felt like worthless choices for any spec Paladin.

    Prot

    T15 - Anything goes
    T30 - Fist of Justice?
    T45 - Sacred Shield or GTFO
    T60 - Unbreakable Spirit
    T75 - Taster's Choice
    T90 - Taster's Choice


    Ret

    T15 - Long Are of the Law or GTFO
    T30 - Fist of Justice or GTFO
    T45 - Selfless Healer or GTFO
    T60 - Clemency or GTFO
    T75 - Taster's Choice
    T90 - Taster's Choice


    Holy

    T15 - Anything goes
    T30 - Anything goes
    T45 - Eternal Flame or GTFO
    T60 - Unbreakable Spirit?
    T75 - Taster's Choice
    T90 - Taster's Choice

  5. #205
    Your list has more "anything goes" and "taster's choice" than not and regardless seems horribly inaccurate.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    I'd like to see more changes to the other talents. As it is currently, a lot of the Tier's are straight forward for certain specs. The only exception is T75 and T90 where a lot of it is personal choice. Otherwise there's no real choice for the other Tiers, or there doesn't seem to be any good choices at all. I would definitely remove Pursuit of Justice and Hand of Purity. Those two just felt like worthless choices for any spec Paladin.

    Prot

    T15 - Anything goes
    T30 - Fist of Justice?
    T45 - Sacred Shield or GTFO
    T60 - Unbreakable Spirit
    T75 - Taster's Choice
    T90 - Taster's Choice


    Ret

    T15 - Long Are of the Law or GTFO
    T30 - Fist of Justice or GTFO
    T45 - Selfless Healer or GTFO
    T60 - Clemency or GTFO
    T75 - Taster's Choice
    T90 - Taster's Choice


    Holy

    T15 - Anything goes
    T30 - Anything goes
    T45 - Eternal Flame or GTFO
    T60 - Unbreakable Spirit?
    T75 - Taster's Choice
    T90 - Taster's Choice
    Duke, I'd expect ret to go more for SS since it's an easy to use absorb that actually has full effectiveness on the caster unlike SH. There's no way it's "SH or GTFO" because SS is simply better than SH unless you're trying for hybrid nonsense (which I don't expect even a hundredth of a percent of ret players to even attempt).

    Holy is not entirely stuck with EF now that SH lets judgment grant HoPo and EF doesn't benefit from mastery. I would have expected you to know that given how much of a discussion has gone on about it in the Holy thread.

    If you would like to refute the math Theck did over at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/09/25/dousing-the-flame/ pretty much proving that EF is better than SS for prot (especially with 4pT16), be our guest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  7. #207
    Bloodsail Admiral ipoststuff's Avatar
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    I dont think unbreakable spirit is unviable for ret. The first two tears are pretty set though. Long arm + fist is a must for ret. I hope blizzard rebalance those tiers.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    snip
    You should probably stick to speaking about your view on your spec for your play. I have seen plenty of prot paladins run Eternal Flame and plenty of holy paladins run Selfless Healer and do extremely well. Your whole view on the "This or GTFO" talents are either wrong or very much out of date.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    I'd like to see more changes to the other talents. As it is currently, a lot of the Tier's are straight forward for certain specs. The only exception is T75 and T90 where a lot of it is personal choice. Otherwise there's no real choice for the other Tiers, or there doesn't seem to be any good choices at all. I would definitely remove Pursuit of Justice and Hand of Purity. Those two just felt like worthless choices for any spec Paladin.


    Ret
    T15 - Long Are of the Law or GTFO
    T30 - Fist of Justice or GTFO
    T45 - Selfless Healer or GTFO
    T60 - Clemency or GTFO
    T75 - Taster's Choice
    T90 - Taster's Choice

    you don't get to chose tier 75 and tier 90 as ret either.
    if you want to be competitive, you pick Zealotry and Holy Prism.

  10. #210
    Epic! Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    you don't get to chose tier 75 and tier 90 as ret either.
    if you want to be competitive, you pick Zealotry and Holy Prism.
    Unless you aren't doing pvp, in which case you'd be awful for taking those talents
    "You little hoochees!" - Daos, Lord of Terror

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    "NEENER-NEENER RETS ARE WIENERS."

  11. #211
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Your list has more "anything goes" and "taster's choice" than not and regardless seems horribly inaccurate.
    The "anything goes" basically means the choices have little effect on your spec. For example the T15 talents are somewhat useless for Holy in general, because Holy Paladins don't need to move around much. As does T30 cause the choices are pretty irrelevant, with the exception of PvP. As Prot the choices for T30 are extremely irrelevant. Hence Fist of Justice with a question mark.

    The "taster's choice" are T75 and T90, which seem to have a lot more thought put into those talents then any other. Since any spec can make good effective use with any of those talents, depending on the situation. They're still far from perfect, but I do end up switching them around more often.

    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    I dont think unbreakable spirit is unviable for ret. The first two tears are pretty set though. Long arm + fist is a must for ret. I hope blizzard rebalance those tiers.
    Unbreakable spirit isn't bad for PvE, but it makes so little difference. Clemency can make a big difference, especially in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    Holy is not entirely stuck with EF now that SH lets judgment grant HoPo and EF doesn't benefit from mastery. I would have expected you to know that given how much of a discussion has gone on about it in the Holy thread.
    I haven't been keeping up with Holy, but I guess Holy now has a choice? Or is it that SH is so good that there's no choice again?
    If you would like to refute the math Theck did over at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/09/25/dousing-the-flame/ pretty much proving that EF is better than SS for prot (especially with 4pT16), be our guest.
    I'm not refuting the math but like Eternal Flame for Holy, Sacred Shield was the best choice for some time. And since the nerf, the choices are nearly identical, with EF being the slightly better choice. That's the problem with a lot of the choices, is that when you can use math to prove one choice is better then another then there's really no choice.

    Blizzard developers need to work more on incomparables for talent choices. Anytime you can sit down and compare talents through math then you didn't do a good job with making talents.
    Last edited by Vash The Stampede; 2013-11-19 at 08:29 PM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredzilla View Post
    Unless you aren't doing pvp, in which case you'd be awful for taking those talents
    of course I was speaking strictly from PVP perspective.
    Who cares about dragonslayers besides dragonslayers?

  13. #213
    Couple of things:

    1) "Anything goes" is far from a small effect on spec. The Level 15 talents have quite different effects on movement speed which is not a non-trivial thing. The Level 30 talents have different effects in PvP and even perhaps World mob fighting which is an aspect of the game and should be treated as such. Not everything has to revolve around Raid situations.

    2) Unbreakable Spirit is not "unviable" by any means, even in a raid situation it is my "default" talent pick for all 3 specs if you do not need the other talents. 1:40 cooldown on Bubble is nothing to sneeze at.

    3) Unfortunately with a class that has 3 specs for 3 roles, and specs that need to be viable in PvE, PvP, World, and even to a degree soloing capabilities, you're just not going to have all 3 talents be "equally good" for every spec, every role, AND every situation. That's not going to happen and the only way to even try to force it would be to make the talents all equally shitty and useless.

    The fact that 3 talents do 3 different things will intrinsically mean "one talent will be better" in any specific given spec/situation. Get over it.

  14. #214
    Unless they give us different talents for each spec.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterik View Post
    Unless they give us different talents for each spec.
    Doesn't matter, the point still holds regardless of that. There's only a point where you can make effectively 3 different talent trees (or squares if you prefer now) one for each spec.

  16. #216
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Doesn't matter, the point still holds regardless of that. There's only a point where you can make effectively 3 different talent trees (or squares if you prefer now) one for each spec.
    But if you look at the new level 100 talents, it pushes for individual specs. For example the Light Within works totally different for Holy, then it does for Prot and Ret. It also works like that for Seal of Faith. Divine Conviction is just totally different for every spec. They sorta started doing this for talents like Eternal Flame, where Ret and Prot weren't touching it. They had to make exceptions for specs, even though they sorta did this with other classes from the start of MOP.

    No getting around the talents were badly designed, and a lot of them need changes.

  17. #217
    A note regarding Seal of Faith: Celestalon tweeted that they want SoF to be more of a commitment and not to just be swapped to in combat. Ret will also get more heals. Their intent is to let the player play 1/2 heal 1/2 dps (or maybe even tank) if a fight calls for it such as a 10 which might benefit best from having 2 tanks, 2.5 healers, and 5.5 dps.

    Hopefully Ret getting more heals means Holy will get more DPS options too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
    Noodles and chocolate milk is the breakfast of Champions.
    Super Brony Friendfinder

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope View Post
    A note regarding Seal of Faith: Celestalon tweeted that they want SoF to be more of a commitment and not to just be swapped to in combat. Ret will also get more heals. Their intent is to let the player play 1/2 heal 1/2 dps (or maybe even tank) if a fight calls for it such as a 10 which might benefit best from having 2 tanks, 2.5 healers, and 5.5 dps.
    A DPS spec getting "half healer half dps" treatment will never work out very well in the current state of the game. Seems it needs to just be removed before launch.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    A DPS spec getting "half healer half dps" treatment will never work out very well in the current state of the game. Seems it needs to just be removed before launch.
    Eh, we'll see how it goes. Blizz seems pretty set on making it available for Ret, but it might not work. At least it's just a talent option instead of actually forcing anyone to take it.

    Though it will be interesting to see how they handle the lack of mana with it if it's expected to use cast time heals at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
    Noodles and chocolate milk is the breakfast of Champions.
    Super Brony Friendfinder

  20. #220
    Seal of faith looks like plenty of fun for hpala. Stacking up faith during downtime in common burst-damage fights, then throw out Lights hammer that ticks for billions, or Holy prism which would be like AoE Lay on hands. I don't know. Give me the Beta already.

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