Does Heroes of the Storm look TOO casual and or dumbed down?

[Deleted]

As a person who doesn't currently play any mobas, I can't really speak to casual and dumbed down. Is it more accessible than other games in the genre? Probably. It seems simpler to pick up and, on that level, will appeal to a more casual demographic, potentially in addition to more serious players. This is of course Blizzard's goal.

Dumbed down? I don't know. I don't think the constant equating of lower learning curve to dumbed down is fair. Plenty of games are simple to learn mechanically (Go, Chess) but can still support a wide variety of player skill. I don't feel like the game was condescending, but like I said - I'm not a moba player, so take that as you will.

The game was amazingly fun to play. It surprised me how much I enjoyed it. Actually, a lot of people on the floor seemed surprised. It went from a "hm, that might be fun" afterthought to probably the most talked about aspect of Blizzcon.

And yes, the team-heavy component is a major positive for me, not a negative.

Compared to Dota, its very "dumbed down" but compared to LoL, not quite as much, but still a bit

[Fencers]

It is more appropriate to say DOTA is a more skillful MOBA than most. Though it's relative complexity is about equal to other MOBAs.

Somewhat lazy to equate mastery with complexity.

[nelly676]

it just feels like...idk if your team sucks you are kinda screwed, as opposed to league where you can strap on the jacket and make game changing plays by yourself

[Tziva]

it just feels like...idk if your team sucks you are kinda screwed, as opposed to league where you can strap on the jacket and make game changing plays by yourself

I can understand that but I still think the positives are worth it. You can fix this issue by purposely grouping with people who are your skill level, but you can't really fix the issue of a game that encourages you to be douchey to your teammates if that's not something you like.

I mean, I can see people not caring about that issue because cooperative group play isn't as important to them as other variables, but games built around supportive teamwork are super desirable to a lot of people, whether it's raiding or war games or arena or an FPS team. A moba that is really team oriented with support roles and whatnot probably will have a lot of appeal.

[Keldarin]

Wasn't one of Blizzards core tenets: Easy to learn, hard to master?
While HotS would be easy to get into and play on an average level, I think Blizzard would be doing a mistake in not getting the competitive scene in on the fun. Given that the competitive scene in most MOBAs is pretty big compared to other games, Blizzard wanting a piece of that cake is almost a given.

Since there are no items or gold, the various talent tree builds and characters is going to be really important. Picking out the right team vs the other team, and counter picking certain heroes is going to be a core part of the meta game. And what will separate the good players vs the really good ones. And it'd still be perfectly fine to just pick a random hero and still save the day with random kiddos.

[Stormcall]

it more sounds like you dont like people being better then you, so you rather play in an environment without people actually being rewarded with momentary satisfaction of being better. do you know how you dont be worthless? you play better.

It also sounds like you're afraid to face players on an even scale where you might have a chance of losing, and only want to face ones you know you can steamroll?

Where I come from, that's called being a pussy, but hey, it's probably not the same everywhere.

[nelly676]

It also sounds like you're afraid to face players on an even scale where you might have a chance of losing, and only want to face ones you know you can steamroll?

Where I come from, that's called being a pussy, but hey, it's probably not the same everywhere.

LOL what. you are already assuming that somone is better. there are games with higher skill ceilings. no idea how you are trying to rationalize being worse then other people as me beaitng up on bad people

[Stormcall]

LOL what. you are already assuming that somone is better. there are games with higher skill ceilings. no idea how you are trying to rationalize being worse then other people as me beaitng up on bad people

It's easy to rationalize it when you straight up ADMIT it, bro. Your exact words-"want to feel like a superstar mowing down noobs". Plain as day right there, you don't want to face people who can beat you, you want to "mow down noobs". People who aren't punks want a challenge, not to "mow down noobs".

[CandyCotton Marshmallows]

it more sounds like you dont like people being better then you, so you rather play in an environment without people actually being rewarded with momentary satisfaction of being better. do you know how you dont be worthless? you play better.

Actually, it sounds the other way around ... you are the one worried about not getting an early item advantage and ganking people and don't want 'homo genius' (sic) champions running around (not what homogenous means ... homogenization would be what they did to healers in Cata, or what people say rogue specs feel like; but from the videos, the game does not appear that way at all [summoning Sindragosa!!!!]).

You are worried about not getting fed/snowballing. You may be afraid of communication and working towards objectives with others. Don't be scared, you can learn these traits in time, and when you do, you'll be a better asset to your team in other MOBAs as well!

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it just feels like...idk if your team sucks you are kinda screwed, as opposed to league where you can strap on the jacket and make game changing plays by yourself

this isn't true either. If you are solo/duo queue; you can get 4 idiots and lose your promos. You cannot carry like that in higher elo, maybe in bronze if you are smurfing.

[Wildmoon]

Complexity doesn't always translate into depth. BW and SC2 are actually not that complex information wise but I dare to say that all these MOBAs out there don't even come close to it both in mechanic and strategy. The games are so demanding that you could obliterate your oppenent by pure mechanic.

Also as I said previously, it couldn't a dumbed down because it's not even the same. It has mechanics other MOBAs don't while it gets rid of some that other MOBAs have. For example, Dota doesn't have talent,objectives to complete. Heroes don't have items and ls/d9.

[Deleted]

it is also kind of a brilliant business move to not go into a direct competition with two giants as LoL and Dota2 that would be suicide. So they made the game different enough to attract a niche of players or someone that want to try something different.

[Noorri]

It's probably going to have exactly the same problem as all the other similar games, and that is that if you don't have enough friends to play with to form a team the game becomes near unplayable.

[Deleted]

Actually, it sounds the other way around ... you are the one worried about not getting an early item advantage and ganking people and don't want 'homo genius' (sic) champions running around (not what homogenous means ... homogenization would be what they did to healers in Cata, or what people say rogue specs feel like; but from the videos, the game does not appear that way at all [summoning Sindragosa!!!!]).

You are worried about not getting fed/snowballing. You may be afraid of communication and working towards objectives with others. Don't be scared, you can learn these traits in time, and when you do, you'll be a better asset to your team in other MOBAs as well!

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this isn't true either. If you are solo/duo queue; you can get 4 idiots and lose your promos. You cannot carry like that in higher elo, maybe in bronze if you are smurfing.

lolwut?? Do you live in a monochrome world? What you described might happen ofc and if it does youre screwed. HOWEVER.... the world doesn't work like that. You can't just have a brilliant or a sucky team. There are tons of middle ground. And from what I gather, in HoTS, large part of that middle ground is indeed off the table. With even distribution of power regardless of actual skill of the participating player, a concern about solo/duo queue is pretty much spot-on because this way one noob/troll will have much more power in bringing the game down than in the game where the power distribution is based on a skill.

And with no items at all, where you choose your talent tree at the beginning, this problem is even further fueled by the fact that you will be inflexible to the flow of the game. Items give you power to adapt, to itemize vs the power source of the enemy team, thus effectively negating the enemy team's power boost and balancing the scales. How does HoTS let you balance the scales? Taking an objective hmm.... come on. If the other team lets you take an objective without any intervention, than it means it fucked up hard. Relying on that as the only real way is nonsense and shouldn't work.

I know I might get flamed for taking the look at the problem from LoL/Dota perspective but with all honesty: no matter how much you emphasize the objectives, MOBA's are still mainly about fights between teams as you always have to disperse the enemy team somehow to be able to take them (objectives). And to that paradigm(from what i gather and watched at the developer's match) Heroes Of The Storm is no exception.

[c4k3tality]

lolwut?? Do you live in a monochrome world? What you described might happen ofc and if it does youre screwed. HOWEVER.... the world doesn't work like that. You can't just have a brilliant or a sucky team. There are tons of middle ground. And from what I gather, in HoTS, large part of that middle ground is indeed off the table. With even distribution of power regardless of actual skill of the participating player, a concern about solo/duo queue is pretty much spot-on because this way one noob/troll will have much more power in bringing the game down than in the game where the power distribution is based on a skill.

And with no items at all, where you choose your talent tree at the beginning, this problem is even further fueled by the fact that you will be inflexible to the flow of the game. Items give you power to adapt, to itemize vs the power source of the enemy team, thus effectively negating the enemy team's power boost and balancing the scales. How does HoTS let you balance the scales? Taking an objective hmm.... come on. If the other team lets you take an objective without any intervention, than it means it fucked up hard. Relying on that as the only real way is nonsense and shouldn't work.

I know I might get flamed for taking the look at the problem from LoL/Dota perspective but with all honesty: no matter how much you emphasize the objectives, MOBA's are still mainly about fights between teams as you always have to disperse the enemy team somehow to be able to take them (objectives). And to that paradigm(from what i gather and watched at the developer's match) Heroes Of The Storm is no exception.

I can't say anyone would feel the need to flame someone for comparing Blizz's MOBA to other MOBAs, but I will have to disagree with some of your opinions on this. My knowledge of HotS is relatively limited, but honestly I think it will be significantly more team-oriented without the need to feed your carry last hits so he can get all of the best items and carry your team fights. A lack of items also nullifies that meta considerably as well, though I will agree it might be too rigid depending on how many skills you can choose between. Honestly if they give me a handful of skills I can make a few builds per hero for, I'm perfectly happy to have no item building to worry about.

This isn't going to kill DotA 2 or LoL players, but I think Blizz is making a MOBA that will actually attract a very large crowd; I've tried to get a lot of friends into LoL (I can't even imagine HoN or DotA 2 with "serious" mechanics) and many times they've quit from the fact MOBAs as they're designed now can feel very discouraging at times while you're working on becoming a good player. In many ways I feel like the current metas in LoL (jungling is a sticking point for me) are upheld for the sake of maintaining the lolhardcore vibe and not because they're actually enjoyable or intuitive mechanics.

Bear in mind obviously this is all opinion, so some people do find those things enjoyable and I can respect that. I'm just stoked that Blizz is making this less focused on one person being amazing and instead putting an emphasis on your team performance.

[Deleted]

I can't say anyone would feel the need to flame someone for comparing Blizz's MOBA to other MOBAs, but I will have to disagree with some of your opinions on this. My knowledge of HotS is relatively limited, but honestly I think it will be significantly more team-oriented without the need to feed your carry last hits so he can get all of the best items and carry your team fights. A lack of items also nullifies that meta considerably as well, though I will agree it might be too rigid depending on how many skills you can choose between. Honestly if they give me a handful of skills I can make a few builds per hero for, I'm perfectly happy to have no item building to worry about.

This isn't going to kill DotA 2 or LoL players, but I think Blizz is making a MOBA that will actually attract a very large crowd; I've tried to get a lot of friends into LoL (I can't even imagine HoN or DotA 2 with "serious" mechanics) and many times they've quit from the fact MOBAs as they're designed now can feel very discouraging at times while you're working on becoming a good player. In many ways I feel like the current metas in LoL (jungling is a sticking point for me) are upheld for the sake of maintaining the lolhardcore vibe and not because they're actually enjoyable or intuitive mechanics.

Bear in mind obviously this is all opinion, so some people do find those things enjoyable and I can respect that. I'm just stoked that Blizz is making this less focused on one person being amazing and instead putting an emphasis on your team performance.

Tbh im not really sure you understood my points. Come on mate, i don't have anything against the team oreintation of this game. I actually really appreciate trying to do it this way. However im concerned about how is this going to work in reality. Because quite honestly i think that as much as Starcraft 2 is based around and promotes 1v1 as the one and only gamestyle, this will promote team vs team game (meant as a ranked team in lol - no solo duo queue). You say youre happy with just skills you can make builds with. Ok you get that. The game starts youre going for an objective and suddenly get ganked and probably almost aced. Yes almost aced because the game encourages you to go together from the get go. Now what? The other team takes an objective and get a boost and while boosted prevents you from taking an objective on your own. You get where im going with that? You will always fight an uneven fight after that first one. This is basically analogous to sc1 / sc2 problem where people are complaining that all you need for a win in sc2 is more populated deathball because unlike sc1 it doesnt promote microing (analogous to individual players skill) as much. And you see where sc2 (being a dustin browder baby too) has gone with this approach.

Im completely with you on the fact that some of the mechanics present in the current mobas might be there just for the sake of hardcoreness and lack of intuitivness. However there is one lesson i learned in my life and after starcraft 2 and diablo 3 i started to apply it on the blizzard products as well. Being new and innovative doesnt always mean being better. Before you embrace something new, you need to look at it critically to see how it will work and how exactly its supposed to be better.

[waddiwasi]

I don't understand why everyone keeps trying to compare Heroes of the Storm to DotA and LoL. They're not even remotely similar.

The feel of this game is entirely different. The maps and pacing are different, and it's intended to be a lot faster paced and more team-oriented. They've even stated as much, and the live games showcased at Blizzcon proved as much. That's the allure of it! It's like a Blizzard Smash Brothers done in a sort of MOBA style. It's not meant to be baby DotA or a better version of DotA, and anyone saying that just hasn't played the game or watched in played at Blizzcon.

[Deleted]

I don't understand why everyone keeps trying to compare Heroes of the Storm to DotA and LoL. They're not even remotely similar.

The feel of this game is entirely different. The maps and pacing are different, and it's intended to be a lot faster paced and more team-oriented. They've even stated as much, and the live games showcased at Blizzcon proved as much. That's the allure of it! It's like a Blizzard Smash Brothers done in a sort of MOBA style. It's not meant to be baby DotA or a better version of DotA, and anyone saying that just hasn't played the game or watched in played at Blizzcon.

I havent played the game but i watched the two developer matches a few times each time from a different perspective. You need to understand that altough it may look like that, I'm not trying to apply the dota way of working on this game.
Im basically looking at the game as a concept of pvp game and analyzing its rules. I shouldnt have mention dota at all, I did that only as an example of working rules that make sense and balance the sides from a pvp point of view.
What im doing is simply stripping down the genre to its most basic thing that each single team game of this type has - the teamfights. Have you ever played Unreal Tournament 2004? If you did and are familiar with the Assault and Onslaught modes, then these two i consider a perfect analogy to hots and dota ( hots being the assault mode). But nevertheless of pursuing objectives, or destroying power nodes both these game modes are still primarily about a simple deathmatch. And Dota and Hots are the same.

[Ryft]

As an old HoN player, and new LoL player, I think the Blizzard interpretation of the genre looks great. I'll play it (fingers crossed I get into beta).

I like the shorter game length and different approach to strategic objectives. I find the initial 20 minutes of laning in LoL/HoN actually pretty boring and stale.

What I would definitely miss though is buying cool items for your hero, I enjoy that in LoL.

[Dundebuns]

No. I think the way HoS is set up will create more varied tactics than the current metas experienced by most MOBA's. Things like Siege champions, Commander champions as well as typical support, carry, bruiser etc will bring out a variety of game play that I am looking forward to.

[vaccine]

And with no items at all, where you choose your talent tree at the beginning, this problem is even further fueled by the fact that you will be inflexible to the flow of the game. Items give you power to adapt, to itemize vs the power source of the enemy team, thus effectively negating the enemy team's power boost and balancing the scales. How does HoTS let you balance the scales? Taking an objective hmm.... come on. If the other team lets you take an objective without any intervention, than it means it fucked up hard. Relying on that as the only real way is nonsense and shouldn't work.

Just to clarify you don't choose your talent tree at the begining. You choose your load out which is the selection of talents available, so say you have 10 level 1 talents for a character, you can take 3 of those into the game, and then choose 1 of those when you start after you see the enemy team. Whilst not as in depth as item buying it does provide some opportunity to build around enemy teams and the meta (Arthas strong in the current meta? I'll take this talent in my loadout to deal with him if he shows up). In regards to balancing the scales, you say that if one team gets an objective uncontested, the other team fucked up. But as we see in one of the dev matches, the one team lets the other do just that, but wins whilst they're busy wtih the objective. I think the game will be much more nuanced than you're giving it credit. We also see in the interivews that they say it's very easy to tell who the better players in the office are, and there are plenty of games where one side just stomps the other every fight. All this suggests there will be ways to distinguish yourself as a better player, but they also say if you want a solo game go play a different game, this game will be about team fights.