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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    [Guardian] level 100 talents discussion

    Guardian (Guardian of Elune)
    •Instant, 1.5 sec cooldown
    •Requires Bear Form
    •Instantly converts up to 60 Rage into up to 5000 absorption for 15 sec.
    •Replaces Frenzied Regeneration.
    This is intresting, it should probely scale the same way as FR does and the 5000 value as given here is just a placeholder.
    An absorbtion shield is usaly better then a heal, since heals can be over healed and shields cannot over shield.
    I am not sure if this shield will work agianst magic?, the real power of this talent has yet to be seen and if the shield can be stacked

    Guardian (Malfurion's Tenacity)
    •Passive
    •Increases your Armor by 200% of your Agility.
    This is a passive psysical dmg reduction, nice i think this might result in soemthing between 3-4% dmg reduction so its good but not absolutly noticeable.
    Aslo this talent does nothing against magic damage.
    And depending on how mastery is applied this value might not get buffed by our mastery at all (since back in BC armor gained from agility was not multiplied by bear form either)

    Guardian (Bristling Fur)
    •Passive
    •After using Enrage, the next attack against you will deal 50% less damage.
    This makes Enrage a more powerfull cooldown then it now is.
    So pwning a boss ability every 1 minute is quite powerfull, this talent might turn out to be to strong
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  2. #2
    Deleted
    The absorb shield will 100% work against magic, its an absorb, hence it will absorb any type of incoming damage regardless of if its magic or physical. This is likely be our go to talent for magical damage bosses. Even so i still like my FR, not saying it wont have its uses though

    Guardian (Malfurion's Tenacity) clearly aimed at physical bosses.

    Guardian (Bristling Fur) is horrible though, im confident this will get changed before it goes live, maybe to get 2 or 3 charges.

  3. #3
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    The Guardian of Elune seems to be more or less the same as Prot Warrior's Shield Barrier, so I'm guessing it will have the same mechanics (Not stackable). Just like Warriors have Shield Block (100% block for 6sec, with 2 charges) and Guardians have Savage Defense (45% dodge for 6sec, with 3 charges) with both at 60 rage cost.

  4. #4
    Low magic damage/low physical burst fights = Malfurion
    High magic damage/physical burst fights= Elune

    Unless they change how Malorne's talent works no Guardian will ever use it as the stress of making sure it isn't consumed by a melee swing isn't worth that 50% damage reduction. Either it gets changed to last several seconds (3 max) or it'll function similar to how Symbiosis' Bone Shield currently works.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    i think you meant Bristling Fur

    the reason why i think Bristling Fur might work out to be good, is becase i think the early DK's Icebount Fortitude also gave a 50% dmg reduction every minute and it allowed them to cheat a lot of boss meschenics
    i think the same might work for that talent
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  6. #6
    Seems like all talents are situational, the armor bonus one seems like what you probably want to use all the time, the absorb one is the one you'll want to use to soak recurrent tank-nuke moves, and the bristling fur is for that one big hit that you can predict that doesn't come out very often.

  7. #7
    BF is very interesting and I like the new take on damage reduction, not just a flat out y% dr over x sec. With the new Barkskin and 2 min SI it sounds really unbalanced compared to other tanks though. Passive armor bonus is boring, and the absorption can probably be quite good.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    BF is very interesting and I like the new take on damage reduction, not just a flat out y% dr over x sec. With the new Barkskin and 2 min SI it sounds really unbalanced compared to other tanks though. Passive armor bonus is boring, and the absorption can probably be quite good.
    It is predicted that the barkskin change is only for this patch and will go back to 1 minutes in 6.0

    On the other hand i wouldnt be surprised if our mastery is changed in 6.0 to something else since it was shit and not much people used mastery stat.

  9. #9
    I guess I'll just repost everything I said in that other thread.

    Guardian is really just 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another. It's really good for specific encounters (like Lei Shi) but pretty meaningless for others. Will likely be weaker than FR anyway, and will have to scale on Vengeance otherwise it's totally useless.

    Malfurion is fucking ridiculously good. How good depends on what exactly the armor formula is in WoD.

    Fur is pretty worthless.

    Obviously these are just concept placeholders. Expect them to be heavily iterated on during beta.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    I guess I'll just repost everything I said in that other thread.

    Guardian is really just 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another. It's really good for specific encounters (like Lei Shi) but pretty meaningless for others. Will likely be weaker than FR anyway, and will have to scale on Vengeance otherwise it's totally useless.

    Malfurion is fucking ridiculously good. How good depends on what exactly the armor formula is in WoD.

    Fur is pretty worthless.

    Obviously these are just concept placeholders. Expect them to be heavily iterated on during beta.
    Unfortunately I think this means Bears can count on their armor being nerfed fairly hard in WoD. You will then have the option to go with Malfurion to bring it up to the equivalent level it is now.

  11. #11
    Guardian of Elune looks like it turns Frenzied Regeneration into a Warrior's Shield Barrier (absorbs all damage and scales with AP). This is a great idea since Bears lack a proper absorb. The other talents are neat, but Guardian of Elune is a very good sign for Bear tanks.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Let's not assume that "Armor" means armor as it is today. Blizzard wants to make Armor an important and most likely primary tank stat (and spirit the same for healers) while simplifying the stat system.

    You shouldnt interpret the armor bonus as if it were by todays standards. Armor MIGHT mean flat damage reduction across the board in WoD. Doubt it, but it might.

    I don't really like any of these to be honest. Sure, having an on-demand absorb might be nice and all but I really like my FR. I like to be able to heal on-demand for tons of damage.

    Bristling Fur is situational. Could be amazing, could be shite.

    As it stand right NOW - my default choice would probably be Malfurion, with Elune a distant second on fights where I need the extra magic reduction (again, assuming armor won't mean across the board in WoD).

  13. #13
    The other talents are neat, but Guardian of Elune is a very good sign for Bear tanks.
    Oh yes, I was just mentioning how much I wanted to be a warrior!
    Though if it stacks and doesn't nerf FR at all (neither of which is likely) I would definitely take it and laugh at taking 0 damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Malfurion is fucking ridiculously good. How good depends on what exactly the armor formula is in WoD.
    ^
    For reference, using current numbers for my character, it's about 28% DR.

    That's a bit off, though. Keep in mind the ilvl drop. You get relatively more agility compared to armor as ilvl gets higher, like so:
    MoP final tier heroic:
    Tunic of the Shattered Vale
    Cata first tier heroic:
    Stormrider's Raiment

    I bring up Cata because from what little I've seen, end of MoP stats are becoming similar to end of Wrath stats. It would make sense then that we'll be going through similar gear to Cata next expac. Apply agility->armor to the cata gear and that talent ends up closer to 10% DR. Obviously this is based heavily on speculation, guesswork, and hearsay, so don't take it too seriously. It's just to give an early ballpark guess.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    I guess I'll just repost everything I said in that other thread.

    Guardian is really just 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another. It's really good for specific encounters (like Lei Shi) but pretty meaningless for others. Will likely be weaker than FR anyway, and will have to scale on Vengeance otherwise it's totally useless.
    I think it's very reasonable to think it'll absorb the same amount frenzied regen heals, Shield barrier scales exactly the same as FR I believe... we might have gotten a 10% FR buff since the beginning of MoP thou.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    I think it's very reasonable to think it'll absorb the same amount frenzied regen heals, Shield barrier scales exactly the same as FR I believe... we might have gotten a 10% FR buff since the beginning of MoP thou.
    Barrier is 180% vs. 220% for FR.

  16. #16
    Well I know for sure at one point Barrier and FR used the exact same formula... FR did get buffed though since bears were thought to be in a bad spot.

    At any rate though, Absorb is definitely more powerful than a self-heal, no overhealing, and since this is an actual talent which is meant to be a boost, i'm pretty sure the power won't drop.

  17. #17
    From the discussion of Guardian of Elune (aka bear bubble), the talent conceptually seems to be in a good spot. We've already seen the spectrum of people wanting it to people preferring to keep FR as is... that's a good thing! Of course, things will inevitably change from now until WoD with respect to many aspects of Guardians, but a good talent design is that a talent is neither mandatory nor avoided at any extreme. The largest hurdle for the talent would be the whole homogenization argument with warriors... although I still claim we had that sort of mitigation before warriors!

    Malfurion's Tenacity will likely depend on several factors, but it's clear that if it stays as a static armor-gaining talent, it will be the default talent. Someone briefly mentioned it in an earlier post, but they threw out the possibility that armor could be changed to do more than it does now. Expanding on such a concept, imagine if armor increased physical and magical reduction for all tanks (or maybe it contributes to the Avoidance stat, who knows). It's not completely out of the realm of possibility, as it would certainly make armor more attractive for every tank if it scaled even decently well. It would also allow more customization and gear dependency for tanks, which I've personally felt has been lacking... especially since the class of a tank has been making more of a difference than the gear of a tank. Regardless, considering all the stats changes that Blizz is making with WoD, I'll wait until we get a better idea of what Blizz wants to do with stats before we get all excited or depressed over this talent... although I think the recent changes to the armor cap might have something to do with this talent.

    Alright, sure, Bristling Fur with the current Enrage would likely be a hassle. No tank likes a survival CD on the GCD, and I think Blizz would have to cave in on that or we'll have to convince Blizz most people wouldn't macro Enrage to every ability. However, the concept is really solid from my view, as there would be certain encounters I would've used that talent during my SoO heroic progression. A simple tweak would be that the talent takes Enrage off the GCD, and I think it would have more fans immediately from that change. I'm sure the biggest concern, and ironically the least of my concerns as I'm certain it's just a placeholder like the numbers associated with other talents, is that it only reduces the damage of the next attack. Even making the duration 3 seconds would be enough for me, since the use of this talent would likely be for preplanned burst, and generally using a cooldown w/i 3 seconds of said damage is pretty easy.

    Overall, I think the general application of the talents allows none of them to be mandatory but each of them to be useful in wide variety of situations. I think one could certainly use any talent in every situation, whether we believe it to be optimal or not, and be successful... and that would be good design.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    The largest hurdle for the talent would be the whole homogenization argument with warriors... although I still claim we had that sort of mitigation before warriors!
    Yea this is annoying me currently. I hate homogenization and I think bears were unique the way they were in MoP, I just think blizz should find us a mechanic not to be similar to other tanks, I mean we still have the rage bar like warriors too also, dunno, It bugs me. If we got absorb as talent, why not give Heal to warriors now as a talent too? if that's the way it is now. I hope u see my point.

  19. #19
    I'd say Elune is going to be the go to talent, assuming there are no major changes to bear tanking other than some change to SD to make it more reliable.

    Especially with the new DoC I could see this talent being really strong, giving us a way to absorb damage, heal ourselves (DoC) and a strait up damage reduction (changed SD most likely)

    The other two are mediocre at best, if Bristling Fur is changed to not work for auto attacks I could see it being really good depending on the fight, however if melee attacks can consume the charge it could be problematic as it won't have reliability in making sure something like talon rake is reduced. When I think about this talent I think of a fight like heroic nazgrim, where he stops auto attacking and uses a 2.5 second cast to do his big damage ability, so there it would be awesome.

  20. #20
    Those complaining about Druids being like warriors, we USED to have an absorb. It was awsome. But they took it away in Cata. So we had an absorb before warriors did.

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